Discussion: Racism - Part 1

[MessiahDecoy123]

Are you saying the term "regressive" should never apply to liberals or it shouldn't apply exclusively? Because a vocal minority of liberals are currently exceptionally regressive in how they're conducting themselves.

Your statement that are things only associated with liberals just further feeds into the false dichotomy that all conservatives are bad and all liberals are somehow trying to free the unthinking masses from the tyrannical rule of the Republicans.

The truth of the matter is there are reasonable people both liberal and conservative, but the regressive elements of both parties are currently dominating the party agenda and direction. The regressive alt-right is just the extreme and final destination of warped conservative ideals Republicans have been courting for over two decades. And in a pendulum swing to the completely opposite direction the regressive left has adopted opposing positions but with an equal amount of intolerance as a counter-measure.

I'm not American so I don't have a dog in this fight, but to imply liberals are somehow the vanguards of everything progressive in this day and age may apply to the pop media false dichotomy but I highly doubt it applies out on the street with as much polarization as you believe. It's quite clear the current identity politics ruled liberals aren't the people to take the USA forward.

I'm not saying all Liberals are perfect but to say both sides can be equally regressive is flat out false.

One side outright complains that society should be like it was during the 1950's and doesn't believe in evolution. That's the very definition of regressive.

 

[Ms. Marvel]

Well on the other end of the spectrum there is communism and anarchism.

 

[MessiahDecoy123]

Well on the other end of the spectrum there is communism and anarchism.

How many Americans support communism versus how many deny climate change or gays the right to get married?

Communism is pretty much dead in the United States but the religious and alt right are a considerable segment of the population

 

[Ms. Marvel]

I don't know, I'd have to see statistics. Either way it doesn't change the fact that, imo anyway, extremism on both sides is equally bad.

 

[DeadPresident]

I'm not saying all Liberals are perfect but to say both sides can be equally regressive is flat out false.

This sentence indicates you've chosen your team and you won't reasonably critique your own team, which is fine, but admit what it is.

When liberals start insisting that human behavior only works one way or certain policies can only function in a single way irrespective of what facts or data say - that's regressive.

One side outright complains that society should be like it was during the 1950's and doesn't believe in evolution. That's the very definition of regressive.

One "side"…It hurts any credibility of objectivity you may have had when you insist not all liberals are perfect but you insist all conservatives want to return to the 50s and don't believe in evolution. The worst part of American politics is how you all insist on constructing false oppositions and believing that your own ideological camp has a spectrum of people but the "opposing" side is some kind of monolithic entity with completely congruent (and all unreasonable) opinions.

Regressive liberalism and conservatism are both enthusiastically trying to redefine the truth and many are participating with thoughtless abandon.

 

[DeadPresident]

How many Americans support communism versus how many deny climate change or gays the right to get married?

Communism is pretty much dead in the United States but the religious and alt right are a considerable segment of the population

Communism may be dead but the left trying to police what can or can't be said about specific interest groups is spreading like wildfire. The grass roots fascist left is building momentum like a flood and the equal and opposite response has been the alt-right that rail against them.

Face facts, this is radicalism vs radicalism now, and the reasonable voices that try and speak out are nearly excommunicated for not falling in line with partisan ideology.

If you needed any proof just look at how people cling to the notion of American politics = Rep vs Dem. Almost everyone seems to agree Hillary and Trump are the worst candidates from either party in a long time, but the popularity of third party candidates doesn't represent an equal level of voters voting differently. It's like a politico-religious conflict.

 

[MessiahDecoy123]

This sentence indicates you've chosen your team and you won't reasonably critique your own team, which is fine, but admit what it is.

When liberals start insisting that human behavior only works one way or certain policies can only function in a single way irrespective of what facts or data say - that's regressive.



One "side"…It hurts any credibility of objectivity you may have had when you insist not all liberals are perfect but you insist all conservatives want to return to the 50s and don't believe in evolution. The worst part of American politics is how you all insist on constructing false oppositions and believing that your own ideological camp has a spectrum of people but the "opposing" side is some kind of monolithic entity with completely congruent (and all unreasonable) opinions.

Regressive liberalism and conservatism are both enthusiastically trying to redefine the truth and many are participating with thoughtless abandon.

It hurts your credibility to consider the left spectrum which includes Bernie Bros and pragmatic Hillary supporters just as backwards and dangerous as the right spectrum which includes the borderline neonazi alt right and the superstitious, puritanical religious right.

These spectrums do not pose an equal threat to our society. Pretending they do does not make you more level headed but rather out of touch with reality.

 

[Victarion]

The alt right are a tiny blip on the American political landscape. Hillary mentioned it in her speech. Prior to that, I had no idea there was an "alt right."

 

[MessiahDecoy123]

A good amount of Trump supporters are far right or alt right whether they realize it or not.

The people cheering every time Trump mentions a wall or banning Muslims are not just a "blip".

 

[Ms. Marvel]

You aren't taking into account his voters who aren't religious, the ones who are just voting for their party (which isn't good sure but beside the point), the ones who are voting for Trump because they for some reason believe he's a great business man that will improve the economy, the ones who so strongly dislike Hilary Clinton that they believe Trump is a better alternative. The actual Trump supporters who are alt-right aren't as common as you think, they are a very vocal minority.

 

[Sawyer]

It hurts your credibility to consider the left spectrum which includes Bernie Bros and pragmatic Hillary supporters just as backwards and dangerous as the right spectrum which includes the borderline neonazi alt right and the superstitious, puritanical religious right.

These spectrums do not pose an equal threat to our society. Pretending they do does not make you more level headed but rather out of touch with reality.

^This.

 

[DeadPresident]

It hurts your credibility to consider the left spectrum which includes Bernie Bros and pragmatic Hillary supporters just as backwards and dangerous as the right spectrum which includes the borderline neonazi alt right and the superstitious, puritanical religious right.

These spectrums do not pose an equal threat to our society. Pretending they do does not make you more level headed but rather out of touch with reality.

That's fair, but the alt-right has been bubbling under the surface for decades, the regressive left has only really cut its teeth in the last five years. Given the same amount of time to develop they will be on equal footing, and nobody appears to be trying to nip that in the bud. You're also overstating the power of the borderline neonazi alt-right and understating the damage to social fabric the regressive left will be able to do left unchecked. Of course the alt-right is dangerous, and given how much time they've been allowed to fester throughout positions of political power in the immediate context they're more dangerous than their counterparts, but that won't last long.

It makes sense, you identify with the identity categories represented by the left so you're treating them with kid gloves.

This entire thread is representative of both sides overlooking the uglier sides of their extremism because people's identity categories are represented by their "team" - it's primal in the most basic sense.

All I'm saying is a more reasonable discourse on both sides is what everyone should be striving towards but identitarians like you rail against that at every opportunity because you can't critique your own position or don't have any insight into it. You're going into "reefer-madness" mode of threat-perception against the right and completely ignoring an insidious liberal discourse that will turn on you because of your identity as soon as it becomes socially expedient to do so. Look at the longer game. My credibility is impartiality, yours is partisanship that you refuse to even recognize - which one of us is actually out of touch with reality?

 

[InCali]

I find the recent posts interesting. As someone who is quite familiar with statistical analysis and probability (not to mention being a ctrl-alt-del leftist...I try to reboot as often as possible), the idea of categorizing those of the "right" and "left" is, in itself, wrong.

For example, I come from a family of "conservative republicans" who differ from the tea party and religious right (yes, there is crossover) in some very fundamental ways. Almost to a person, they believe in civil liberties and have no interest in anyone's race, sexual orientation, religion, etc. My (staunch republican) mother who lives in Orange County (look it up if you aren't familiar with the area) recently told me that there was a Muslim man she had been listening to who she felt would make a better president than Trump or Clinton (both of whom she can't stomach). While my political differences with most of those in my family are pretty apparent, I can at least respect those opinions because they are not based on bigotry.

 

[Thundercrack85]

The alt right are a tiny blip on the American political landscape. Hillary mentioned it in her speech. Prior to that, I had no idea there was an "alt right."

You say that, but I see the alt right and their ideology (particularly the latter) seep into mainstream rightwing politics more and more. Be it Fox News, or the "Federation for Immigration Reform". Not to mention the actual Neo-Nazi who made Arizona's racist immigration law, which was then adopted by other Republican states.

You may not have known the term, but the alt right, with their xenophobia, racism, and conspiracy theories have been lurking for a while.

Trump is just the latest example of rightwing extremism coming to the fore.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

You aren't taking into account his voters who aren't religious, the ones who are just voting for their party (which isn't good sure but beside the point), the ones who are voting for Trump because they for some reason believe he's a great business man that will improve the economy, the ones who so strongly dislike Hilary Clinton that they believe Trump is a better alternative. The actual Trump supporters who are alt-right aren't as common as you think, they are a very vocal minority.

Which of these is a legit excuse for voting for a racist xenophobic misogynist bigot exactly?

 

[Ms. Marvel]

They aren't meant to be excuses just pointing out not all of his voters are alt-right.

 

[samsnee]

As long as those on the right want to tell women what to do with their bodies, there is no equivalent on the left.

 

[Victarion]

When I was a kid I had a few of those white people wanting to touch my hair situations. It was weird.

One of the white girls that was with us during an excursion to the hustler club was walking around touching black peoples' hair. It was funny with an undercurrent of embarrassing. Mostly because she was drunk af.

 

[Warhammer]

Not without criticism from the left for whatever reason. Praying bad, hijab good...is what the media chants every night before they go to bed. It's that ctrl-left mentality. Anything majority is shameful.

In the United States, that sounds like a martyr complex.

 

[InCali]

So you don't have a problem with what Kaepernick did?

What I'm seeing both sides do here is "if my guy does it, it's cool. If yours does, it isn't." BOTH sides.

Not from "MY" side you aren't. I'm cool with Kaepernick. I'm cool with Tebow (though I do think he's a bit of a self promoter, I also think he's honest about his faith) and I'm cool with a muslim wearing a hijab. Frankly, it's none of my business. I get to have my opinions and criticize people if I think they are self promoting charlatans (including a particular presidential candidate), but that's a very different thing than trying to stop them from expressing themselves or living within the bounds of their religious beliefs.

 

[InCali]

When I was a kid I had a few of those white people wanting to touch my hair situations. It was weird.

I think "creepy" is the word you're looking for. I never heard of such a thing. That is frelling bizarre.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

They aren't meant to be excuses just pointing out not all of his voters are alt-right.

If you are voting for Trump you are overlooking everything he says and does, willing to put the nation in the hands of a horrible person who clearly is in no way shape or form capable of being the President of the United States of America. That seems pretty alternative to me. If you believe the stuff about Hillary that is clearly made up, that is definitely alt-right.

 

[Ms. Marvel]

A lot of liberals believe that stuff about Hilary too though. It doesn't seem to be something exclusive to only the far right.

 

[Breogan]

the left trying to police what can or can't be said about specific interest groups is spreading like wildfire .

Please enlighten us with what the left is supposedly policing you or keeping you from saying about or calling "specific interest groups"?
What "groups" and what is it you are so dying to call or say about them that you feel you can't?

 

[Handsome Rob]

Please enlighten us with what the left is supposedly policing you or keeping you from saying about or calling "specific interest groups"?
What "groups" and what is it you are dying to call or say about them that you feel you can't?

Here's one:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...y-demand-that-you-use/?utm_term=.00eff81f01f1

You can be fined for not referring to someone by their preferred pronoun. And this is left-wing de Blasio's office.

Here's another:

http://www.wsj.com/articles/literal-speech-police-1447180770

The school can take disciplinary action, because "While cases of hateful and hurtful speech are not crimes, if the individual(s) identified are students, MU’s Office of Student Conduct can take disciplinary action."

Who wants to take a bet that "hateful" and "hurtful" speech will be defined according to left-wing principles?

The standard defense from the totalitarian left to both of these examples will be, "But this is hate speech, and you don't have a right to hate speech." Hate speech, of course, will be defined by totalitarian left as speech that goes against what they believe, rendering the concept of free speech moot. After all, is there really free speech when the definition is "You are free to say whatever you like as long as it conforms to our standards?"