Discussion: Racism - Part 1

[2kt09]

Do you know how many murders are linked to the Klan?

Currently and in the US?
We covered white on black homicide in this thread. The floor is all yours.

 

[MessiahDecoy123]

Woulda coulda shoulda. I stand firmly behind honest, self reflective discourse. Placing your ideals above critique is a huge red flag.

Because I won't help the opposite party several weeks before one of the most important elections during my lifetime, it's a red flag?

Okay buddy. Sure.

 

[Donner]

Why is White nationalism only a threat when and if the majority of America embraces it? Do you know how many murders are linked to the Klan?

You really think the majority of America will embrace white nationalism? That's messed up. I think the media warps your perception of this.

The Klan is a domestic terrorist group. They kill innocent people because they're cowards. The majority of people are not okay with that.

 

[moviedoors]

Because I won't help the opposite party several weeks before one of the most important elections during my lifetime, it's a red flag?

Okay buddy. Sure.

I see, it's a George W Bush approach you're taking.

I'm just amazed that you think what we're doing here, on the superhero hype message board, could possibly sway an election, to the point that you're offended that someone would even dare critique an idea that's liberal. Not even Clinton, just anything considered left wing.

 

[moviedoors]

You really think the majority of America will embrace white nationalism? That's messed up. I think the media warps your perception of this.

The Klan is a domestic terrorist group. They kill innocent people because they're cowards. The majority of people are not okay with that.

The KKK make for such easy villains, it's almost hack at this point. That's not to deny racism exists, but how much of a nuance is the Klan now?

Now I really am curious. How much trouble does the klan actually get into these days? Aren't their numbers at a historic low? I should just look into this.

 

[MessiahDecoy123]

I see, it's a George W Bush approach you're taking.

I'm just amazed that you think what we're doing here, on the superhero hype message board, could possibly sway an election, to the point that you're offended that someone would even dare critique an idea that's liberal.

What Bushism have I used?

I already told you. Every vote counts.

Does that mean one person could sway the election?

No, it's a collective effort.

Obviously.

 

[Donner]

The KKK make for such easy villains, it's almost hack at this point. That's not to deny racism exists, but how much of a nuance is the Klan now?

Now I really am curious. How much trouble does the klan actually get into these days? Aren't their numbers at a historic low? I should just look into this.

Other than endorsing presidential candidates, I don't think they're up to much.

 

[Angryfantasyfan]

You really think the majority of America will embrace white nationalism? That's messed up. I think the media warps your perception of this.

The Klan is a domestic terrorist group. They kill innocent people because they're cowards. The majority of people are not okay with that.

I'm not sure if you missed the if in my statement or not, but it's dangerous to buy into American exceptionalism. It's happened in other places, it can happen here.

Again, I'll ask why is White nationalism only a threat when and if the majority embrace it, especially considering what you had to say about Black Lives Matter?

It's one of those things that can be dangerous, when a group formally discriminated against with violence and segregation gains power and then enacts revenge on those that initially discriminated against them (see the Hutu/Tutsi conflict in Rwanda as a reference). It's a vicious cycle.

BLM, if their radical members are not kept in check, could become one of those groups.

The KKK make for such easy villains, it's almost hack at this point. That's not to deny racism exists, but how much of a nuance is the Klan now?

Now I really am curious. How much trouble does the klan actually get into these days? Aren't their numbers at a historic low? I should just look into this.

Is 2014 recent enough?

A white supremacist in the US who shot dead three people outside Jewish centres in Kansas has been sentenced to death by lethal injection.

Frazier Glenn Cross, a 74-year-old former leader of the Ku Klux Klan, gave the "Heil Hitler" salute as he was dragged out of court after sentencing in Kansas. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...eath-for-triple-murder-at-Jewish-centres.html


Florida Jailhouse Guards Arrested in KKK Murder Plot

Three current and former prison guards arrested in Florida on Thursday were also members of the Ku Klux Klan and allegedly used Klan meetings to plan the murder of a black inmate after his release.http://www.thedailybeast.com/articl...house-guards-arrested-in-kkk-murder-plot.html

 

[Donner]

The Klan is not garnering support. They're not gaining momentum. They're not part of some social justice movement. If the Klan were growing and taking over politics, you may have an argument. But they're not. They're a violent group desperately trying to get attention. That does not mean they're a major threat any more than terrorists setting off nukes are.

BLM is gaining support. And some of their members have committed heinous crimes in their name. We have many examples of groups that were once discriminated against with violence gaining power and enacting revenge. It's dangerous to ignore history. BLM runs the risk of turning into something regressive. Social change is one thing. Hurting and killing innocent people is another.


I still maintain that the biggest issue here is poverty.

 

[Angryfantasyfan]

I'm not sure why you're so determined to downplay the threat from White supremacists, but it fits a pattern.

June 17, 2015) White shooter, hoping to start a race war, kills nine people in a Black church - national debate on the Confederate flag.

July 5 & 6, 2016) Videos of police shooting two Black men are uploaded by witnesses - national debate on the three years old Black Lives Matter movement.

August 26, 2016) Quarterback sits down during anthem in protest of police killing Black people - national debate on patriotism and the military.

Is it any wonder why black lives matter is an effective rally cry or why it seems to make so many folks uncomfortable?

 

[MessiahDecoy123]

The Klan is not garnering support. They're not gaining momentum. They're not part of some social justice movement. If the Klan were growing and taking over politics, you may have an argument. But they're not. They're a violent group desperately trying to get attention. That does not mean they're a major threat any more than terrorists setting off nukes are.

BLM is gaining support. And some of their members have committed heinous crimes in their name. We have many examples of groups that were once discriminated against with violence gaining power and enacting revenge. It's dangerous to ignore history. BLM runs the risk of turning into something regressive. Social change is one thing. Hurting and killing innocent people is another.


I still maintain that the biggest issue here is poverty.

Dylan Roof ring a bell?

 

[moviedoors]

Okay, that's one white supremacist. But what about the KKK? I'm seeing it implied that they're still a big deal and possibly even growing. But I'm just having trouble focusing on them in 2016. When was the last time the Klan got together as a mob and lynched somebody? Again, not downplaying racism or saying that the KKK isn't vile, but this seems misdirected and alarmist. Are their antics that statistically significant anymore?

 

[Donner]

Dylan Roof is in prison and didn't start a race war. No one copied what he did. His ideology didn't catch on.

I liken white supremacists to terrorists. Terrorism is not a major threat to any US citizen on US soil. Same with white supremacy. Things happen, but it's not an epidemic.

 

[DeadPresident]

Dylan Roof ring a bell?

But it's just a couple of white supremacists killing a few blacks here and there, right?

You don't seem to understand that if it's alright for you to dismiss something happening to someone else you have no grounds to get upset when the same thing happens to people that you identify with. Either murdering people for ideological reasons is wrong, for everyone, or it isn't.

 

[DeadPresident]

As I posted in my first reply, what makes it racist is that the demographic shift is being framed as white genocide.

Sure, I'd agree there. The term "white genocide" is a red flag, to a degree. However, it should surprise anyone that the levels of immigration are troubling to hegemonic groups all around the world. My issue is it's only termed racist when majority-white countries seem to have a problem with refugees and immigration.

When Arab, Asian, African, or South American countries blatantly and enthusiastically engage in prejudicial behavior in regard to immigration people say it's just "cultural relativism". Why isn't that the case for white countries, why is the preservation of majority-white populations seen as some kind of white supremacist conspiracy? I understand the historical relevance of slavery being a forced practice and nobody of certain heritage all around the globe necessarily chose to be in the countries they find themselves in, but that's an altogether more complex problem and we're not going to solve its nuances on a message board for superhero movies.

There also seems to be a narrative from some that white countries need to atone for history and that they can't complain when their culture or national sovereignty is being imposed on. Now if that's the angle people want to run with that's perfectly fine, but they should just understand that the logical and equal response to that is going to be a rising and relentless nationalist right wing - like we're currently seeing take hold in countries like France and Germany.

 

[MessiahDecoy123]

Dylan Roof is in prison and didn't start a race war. No one copied what he did. His ideology didn't catch on.

I liken white supremacists to terrorists. Terrorism is not a major threat to any US citizen on US soil. Same with white supremacy. Things happen, but it's not an epidemic.

White supremacy goes beyond mass shootings.

 

[Donner]

What do you mean?

 

[MessiahDecoy123]

But it's just a couple of white supremacists killing a few blacks here and there, right?

You don't seem to understand that if it's alright for you to dismiss something happening to someone else you have no grounds to get upset when the same thing happens to people that you identify with. Either murdering people for ideological reasons is wrong, for everyone, or it isn't.

I'm simply pointing out that white supremacy isn't benign.

It has nothing to do with my earlier point that a few people dying doesn't compare to a fringe politician with his finger on the nuke button.

Saying millions of deaths have much greater importance than several deaths doesn't mean I don't value lives.

I think you got that backwards.

 

[MessiahDecoy123]

What do you mean?

White supremacy is an ideology that causes mistreatment of non-whites in many other areas.

 

[Donner]

White supremacy is an ideology that causes mistreatment of non-whites in many other areas.

Like where? You have to be much more specific about this. I think what we'll end up seeing is that you're going to blame white supremacy on issues that are actually caused by something else (poverty, for instance).

 

[MessiahDecoy123]

Like where? You have to be much more specific about this. I think what we'll end up seeing is that you're going to blame white supremacy on issues that are actually caused by something else (poverty, for instance).

Discrimination in the justice system, employment, housing, banking, etc.

Not that those contribute to socioeconomics or anything.

 

[Donner]

Edit.

 

[SuperT]

You can argue about who is more likely to be poor and why, but that is a separate issue.

It's definitely not a separate issue at all, all of those things are absolutely tied together. White supremacy here in the United States has been a direct cause of large amounts of poverty in the black community. That poverty then leads to many black people being discriminated against when it comes to employment, education, justice etc.

 

[MessiahDecoy123]

Employment, housing and banking. Do you have proof of this or do you just assume?

http://www.epi.org/publication/webfeatures_snapshots_20080611/

https://www.huduser.gov/portal/pdredge/pdr_edge_research_062813.html

And the last one points out that workplace discrimination is incredibly hard to prove but definitely cannot be ruled out.

http://money.cnn.com/2015/11/25/news/economy/racial-discrimination-work/

 

[Donner]

Okay, fair enough. I figured we were talking more about crime and violence.