Discussion: Racism - Part 3

[Sithborg]

The Confederate flag.

 

[hellified]

They're spoken of in the same breath because (a) the actual white supremacist groups began using the "Stars and Bars" to associate themselves with the Southern Lost Cause, and (b) Alt-Left groups began targeting Neo-Confederates as synonymous with supremacists because the former were a much more public presence.

There are indeed those who think that the Dukes of Hazzard was a white supremacist show simply because it too used the Stars and Bars. This is a good example of "idiotology" (idiotic use of ideology), given that Hazzard was about as non-political as any TV show could be-- except in the minds of those who think any show featuring Caucasian characters is automatically opposed to the interests of "diversity."

The stars and bars being associated with racists and white supremacists has way more to do with southern racists of the segregation era than the alt-left.

Georgia and Alabama used the flag as a symbol to fight against civil rights and integration in the 50s and 60s. In his official capacity as governor George Wallace flew the flag at the state capital while declaring "segregation now, segregation tomorrow, segregation forever."

Its THAT period that draws a racist association with the stars and bars.

 

[routhman]

The stars and bars being associated with racists and white supremacists has way more to do with southern racists of the segregation era than the alt-left.

Georgia and Alabama used the flag as a symbol to fight against civil rights and integration in the 50s and 60s. In his official capacity as governor George Wallace flew the flag at the state capital while declaring "segregation now, segregation tomorrow, segregation forever."

Its THAT period that draws a racist association with the stars and bars.

: It's this sort of response (and more generally, this sort of exchange) that makes it clear who knows their history and who regurgitates Seann Hannity's bull crap.

And for what it's worth, there is no "alt-left." The alt-right is a self-named group, whereas the alt-left is a term crafted by right-wing pundits to resemble the alt-right and to confuse.

 

[Thundercrack85]

The stars and bars being associated with racists and white supremacists has way more to do with southern racists of the segregation era than the alt-left.

Georgia and Alabama used the flag as a symbol to fight against civil rights and integration in the 50s and 60s. In his official capacity as governor George Wallace flew the flag at the state capital while declaring "segregation now, segregation tomorrow, segregation forever."

Its THAT period that draws a racist association with the stars and bars.

That is not the stars and bars.

People get that wrong all the time. The stars and bars refers to the original Confederate flag, which had bars. The modern-day Georgian flag (the state, not the country) is very similar.

The confederate flag widely used today is modeled after the Army of Northern Virginia Battle Flag and the flag of the Army of Tennessee, which had the cross everyone now is familiar with. Sometimes called the "Southern Cross".

 

[hellified]

That is not the stars and bars.

People get that wrong all the time. The stars and bars refers to the original Confederate flag, which had bars. The modern-day Georgian flag (the state, not the country) is very similar.

The confederate flag widely used today is modeled after the Army of Northern Virginia Battle Flag and the flag of the Army of Tennessee, which had the cross everyone now is familiar with. Sometimes called the "Southern Cross".

do you really think anyone is going to bother to nuance and note the minute differences in the flag design?

Also thats whats on the roof of the general lee car...which is what some people may take issue with..

 

[DJ Kornphlake]

It's not really a minute difference:

 

[Thundercrack85]

do you really think anyone is going to bother to nuance and note the minute differences in the flag design?

Also thats whats on the roof of the general lee car...which is what some people may take issue with..

I am. I know what bars are.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

To be fair, a cross is made up of two crossing bars.

 

[Dark Raven]

Disturbing neo-Nazi stickers have started appearing in central London

http://metro.co.uk/2017/09/04/distu...-started-appearing-in-central-london-6903091/

One sticker, found in the centre of the city, reads ‘GOOD NIGHT LEFT SIDE’ – an inversion of the anti-racist slogan ‘Good Night White Pride’.

Five children orphaned after both parents tragically die of cancer
It also featured a picture of the car that was driven into crowds of anti-racist protesters in Charlottesville, Virginia, last month.

The group was protesting against white supremacists who had gathered for a ‘Unite the Right’ march on the University of Virginia campus when the car ploughed into them.

One woman, 32-year-old Heather Heyer, was tragically killed.
Steve Rose, who researches extremism for Faith Matters, spotted the sticker on a lamp post. He took a photo, before ripping the sticker off.

‘The sticker is representative of the potentially more violent form of neo-Nazi activism,’ Steve told Metro.co.uk.

‘Its use of a Dodge Charger vehicle is a disturbing and deliberate choice following the terroristic murder of Heather Heyer in Charlottesville.

‘It is intended to threaten communities and individuals they perceive to be on the “left”.’

Fiyaz Mughal OBE, the founder and director of Faith Matters, added: ‘To find a sticker like this in London shows that we all need to remain vigilant in pushing back extremism, because extremist groups are always trying to find footholds to create tension and division.’

The sticker has been reported to the Metropolitan Police.

I didn't realise the car in Charlottesville was a Dodge Charger. That's not any ordinary car. That's the Dukes of Hazzard car - the General Lee, albeit a different model. But still the same make of car. That can't be a coincidence.

Anyway, I hope the Neo Nazis don't start showing up in London. Certainly any Confederates can't have much interest here. It's not even like the Deep South here and there are so many other nationalities and ethnic minorities that any Confederates or Neo Nazis won't exactly feel at home. What are they going to do? Chase all these ethnic minorities out of London?

 

[Dark Raven]

That is not the stars and bars.

People get that wrong all the time. The stars and bars refers to the original Confederate flag, which had bars. The modern-day Georgian flag (the state, not the country) is very similar.

The confederate flag widely used today is modeled after the Army of Northern Virginia Battle Flag and the flag of the Army of Tennessee, which had the cross everyone now is familiar with. Sometimes called the "Southern Cross".

Which one is the original Confederate flag? The one which DJ Kornphlake posted?

But what's the difference between bars and stripes? What about the current US flag? Couldn't those stripes be considered bars depending on how you categorise them? There's no real difference between this

and

in terms of whether they're bars or stripes. Couldn't the current US flag be called the stars and bars instead of the stars and stripes?

 

[routhman]

Sure it could. But it's not.

 

[Dark Raven]

Sure it could. But it's not.

Yes, but why is that top flag considered to have bars and the one below it considered to have stripes? That's what I'm saying. What is the difference visually? It can't be just that the flag below has more. Otherwise does Captain America have bars on his abdomen or stripes, since he has fewer than the actual American flag, especially the movie costume which only has it on the front and not going all the way round, and there are only usually about 4?

 

[routhman]

You're getting tripped up by the difference between a society's idiomatic name for something (stars & stripes = the modern American Flag in modern American culture, and stars & bars = the Confederate flag in the same) versus synonymous words judged outside the context of a society's idioms (in the dictionary, bars = stripes).

It's like how Superboy refers to one character and Superman refers to another character. You could argue that boy = man, so isn't Superboy = Superman? No, because that's not the meaning we assign to the words Superman and Superboy as a culture.

 

[chamber-music]

Four serving members of the British Army have been arrested under anti-terror laws on suspicion of being members of banned neo-Nazi group National Action.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-41161233

 

[ouroboros]

The stars and bars being associated with racists and white supremacists has way more to do with southern racists of the segregation era than the alt-left.

Georgia and Alabama used the flag as a symbol to fight against civil rights and integration in the 50s and 60s. In his official capacity as governor George Wallace flew the flag at the state capital while declaring "segregation now, segregation tomorrow, segregation forever."

Its THAT period that draws a racist association with the stars and bars.

Routhman is correct in pointing out that the "Southern Cross," or "Battle Flag" as others call it, is the correct term.

However, I think it's arguable as to whether the Battle Flag had become inextricably associated with racist movements in the 1960s and 1970s. You brought up the Dukes of Hazzard car. What producer of a popular TV show would have let the car be so decorated if he thought that was how all viewers would interpret the icon?

By 2005, though, due to the flag's constant usage by supremacist groups, the icon had taken on that unilateral meaning, to the extent that when they released the HAZZARD film-remake that same year, it included a "joke" in which the Dukes were vilified for having the symbol on their car.

 

[ouroboros]

: It's this sort of response (and more generally, this sort of exchange) that makes it clear who knows their history and who regurgitates Seann Hannity's bull crap.

And for what it's worth, there is no "alt-left." The alt-right is a self-named group, whereas the alt-left is a term crafted by right-wing pundits to resemble the alt-right and to confuse.

According to Wiki, one particular guy originated the term, and others picked up on it.

Now, while it's true that "alt-left" probably wasn't coined by lefties, it would still be applicable if indeed there was an assortment of left-leaning partisans who shared the alt-right's penchant for extremity.

 

[Dark Raven]

Routhman is correct in pointing out that the "Southern Cross," or "Battle Flag" as others call it, is the correct term.

However, I think it's arguable as to whether the Battle Flag had become inextricably associated with racist movements in the 1960s and 1970s. You brought up the Dukes of Hazzard car. What producer of a popular TV show would have let the car be so decorated if he thought that was how all viewers would interpret the icon?

By 2005, though, due to the flag's constant usage by supremacist groups, the icon had taken on that unilateral meaning, to the extent that when they released the HAZZARD film-remake that same year, it included a "joke" in which the Dukes were vilified for having the symbol on their car.

I didn't know they made that joke in the movie. But I have read that by 2015 the Dukes of Hazzard TV series was pulled from the syndication schedule.

And in that Charlottesville incident recently, it was a Dodge Charger that was used to mow people down. It wasn't the same orange colour and didn't have the southern cross on the roof, but it was still a Dodge Charger. That can't be a coincidence, because whichever model it is, you'd still associate that make of car with Hazzard, just like you'd automatically associate a Ford Gran Torino with Starsky and Hutch, even if it's a slightly different model.

 

[squeekness]

Disturbing neo-Nazi stickers have started appearing in central London

http://metro.co.uk/2017/09/04/distu...-started-appearing-in-central-london-6903091/

I didn't realise the car in Charlottesville was a Dodge Charger. That's not any ordinary car. That's the Dukes of Hazzard car - the General Lee, albeit a different model. But still the same make of car. That can't be a coincidence.

Anyway, I hope the Neo Nazis don't start showing up in London. Certainly any Confederates can't have much interest here. It's not even like the Deep South here and there are so many other nationalities and ethnic minorities that any Confederates or Neo Nazis won't exactly feel at home. What are they going to do? Chase all these ethnic minorities out of London?

Actually the car used in Charlottesville was a Challenger (note that it is a two door, )not a Charger(four door). My husband has a Challenger and it was the first thing I noted when I saw the footage of the crime. Shame to have used such an awesome car.

edit: The Charger also has boxy headlights, not the circle lights (they look like eyes to me) that the new Challengers have.

 

[Uskok]

I didn't know they made that joke in the movie. But I have read that by 2015 the Dukes of Hazzard TV series was pulled from the syndication schedule.

Here's the movie scene.

[YT]Us7v8vQpmZg[/YT]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Us7v8vQpmZg

 

[Tacit Ronin]

A picture of a black person can anger Trump supporters.

This explains the hostility any time a black guy is in major motiion pictures such as star wars.

 

[chamber-music]

A picture of a black person can anger Trump supporters.

This explains the hostility any time a black guy is in major motiion pictures such as star wars.

That isn't really a big surprise. You go on many Alt-Right or Conservative leaning sites with a comments section or message board and there are usually many posts extremely hostile to anything remotely related to black people.

The posters are clearly racist but are in denial that they are racist.

They are the type of racists that say they aren't because they a friend who is black (for example) but they don't even realize that the whole 'few good ones I know' is a age old common excuse for racists that don't want to publicly admit their prejudice.

 

[chamber-music]

British Labour MP and Solicitor David Lammy is advocating reform to the British Justice System after a report he lead found racial bias towards minority groups that was eroding trust in the justice system.

Lammy offered up some recommendations which the government said they will look at.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-41191311

The report showed unequal, disproportionate and harsher treatment of BME people (including Gypsies Roma and Irish Travellers, and black and Asian Muslims) in comparison to their white peers

David Lammy MP has released his much-awaited government-sponsored review into the treatment of black and ethnic minority (BME) people in the criminal justice system of England and Wales. Significantly this review was commissioned by two Prime Ministers – David Cameron and Theresa May – because both felt they could no longer ignore the “burning injustice” of racial inequality in the criminal justice system.

The update from Lammy’s interim review letter to the PM in November 2016 suggests that the findings will be stark, highlighting unequal, disproportionate and harsher treatment of BME people (including Gypsies Roma and Irish Travellers, and black and Asian Muslims) in comparison to their white peers.


The report also found "overt discrimination" in the criminal justice system, and that the number of black people in prison was even more disproportionate than in the United States. It also highlighted some of the shocking statistics that Runnymede Trust are already familiar with: black people represent 3 per cent of the population in England and Wales, but represent 12 per cent of the British prison population. (and 20 per cent of the young offender population). Gypsies, Roma and Irish Travellers represent just 0.1 per cent of the population, but account for around 5 per cent of the male prison population. Similarly, Muslims represent 5 per cent of the population in the UK, but reflect almost three times that figure in the prison population.

There is a prevalent perception that BME people (and black people, in particular) are more likely to be involved in crime, so the racial outcomes in the criminal justice system are merely an outcome of criminal history or current offending patterns. But this is not the case. In their analysis of Ministry of Justice data, Release, a national drugs charity, showed that contrary to media portrayals, black people use illegal drugs less than white people. Despite this pattern, black people were six times more likely than white people to be stopped and searched for drugs, and more likely to be charged, rather than cautioned, for possession of drugs. In fact, some 56 per cent of white people received cautions (rather than charges) for drug offences, compared to only 22 per cent of black people.

Lammy’s report looks forensically at the extent of racial discrimination and racial disparity at each stage of the criminal justice system. The report found BME prisoners were less likely to receive support while incarcerated, and BME men were more likely to be allocated to high security prisons – which Lammy has aptly described as a "second sentence". The odds of receiving a prison sentence was 240 per cent higher for BME offenders than their white counterparts.

Crime and race (and more recently religion with respect to Asian grooming gangs) are often linked together, as though racial group is the key explanation. This is simplistic, insidious and harmful. High arrest rates amongst black people often (but not always) reflect more discriminatory and racist policing practices. In addition, key predictors of crime are more likely to be poverty and poor neighbourhoods. Studies, including a House of Commons review, have shown that race is not a driver for crime, and reductions in poverty often lead to reductions in crime - in both multi-ethnic and less diverse areas. It’s also important to take account of age profiles when comparing racial groups in crime. Younger people commit more crime and BME groups are younger, on average, compared to the white population. In fact, research has shown that when you take account of deprived circumstances and age, differences between racial groups disappear.

Of course, there will BME people who have committed crimes and broken the law; in these cases, certainty of punishment must also prevail. But for others it will simply be the misfortune of living in over-policed areas, or being “in the wrong place at the wrong time”. What Lammy’s review shows is that not only are BME people unfairly treated by the criminal justice system, but this systemic racism and inequality is compounded at every stage of the criminal justice system. Through conscious, and unconscious racism and discrimination, the entire criminal justice system contributes to criminalising and stigmatising BME people. By the time they exit the supposedly “fair and just” British criminal justice system, they are the least likely to have successful outcomes in any aspects of their lives.

http://www.newstatesman.com/politic...eview-bursts-myth-link-between-race-and-crime

Before people start dismissing the report because Lammy is center left and black, it is worth noting the review was commissioned by the previous and current Prime Minsters (Cameron and May) who are both center right conservatives. Prime Minister Theresa May said in her national address when she became leader that she would tackle racial inequality.

 

[Black Narcissus]

Please tell me the story of the 8year old boy being lynched is fake. Goddamn.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

Please tell me the story of the 8year old boy being lynched is fake. Goddamn.

It is most certainly not sadly.

 

[Dark Raven]

Philly Driver Shouts ‘This Is America’ To The Wrong Asian-American

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry...iver-philadelphia_us_59aee63ae4b0354e440d1069

“Yes, this is America. I am American,” reporter responds in viral video.

[YT]qqgC83QmbMk[/YT]

Casual discrimination happens all the time - sometimes when you’re just trying to cross the street.

Nydia Han, a reporter and anchor at Philadelphia’s 6ABC Action News, took to Facebook on Sunday to describe a moment that made her feel like an outsider in her own city.

Han, a Korean-American with more than two decades of experience in broadcast journalism, was almost hit by a car while crossing a Philadelphia street Friday night on a green light.

“A driver, coming the opposite direction on Locust, flew around the corner to make a left turn — clearly did not see me — screeched to a halt and missed hitting me by about half a foot,” Han says in the video, which currently has over 1.4 million views.

The two exchanged a few words about who had the right of way at the intersection. Then the driver drove off and shouted, “This is America!”

The casual, cutting remark left Han shaken but determined to speak out.

“It’s those three words ? ‘this is America’ ? that I would like to respond to since this woman did not give me the courtesy to allow me to respond to her at the scene,” Han says in the Facebook video. “So, yes, this is America. I am American. Born and raised.”

Han - who’s worked in news stations across the country and covered national stories including the Columbia shuttle disaster and Hurricane Katrina - goes on to describe the America she knows firsthand.

“I know America in ways that you probably don’t and never will,” the reporter says in the four-minute video. “I have seen Americans suffer and grieve. I have seen Americans rejoice and show resilience and recover. I have seen America at its best and at its worst, so I know ‘this is America’ ? you do not have to tell me that.”

Pointing directly to her own face, Han challenges the driver to think twice before making assumptions about who gets to call themselves American.

“Did you think that this face would not stand up against you? Against racism? And against ignorance? Well, you were wrong,” Han says. “I am Asian-American. I am strong, I am proud and I am speaking out against you today.”

The video has over 22,000 shares and 39,000 “reactions” on Facebook. Han, who was born in Ventura, California, has also received plenty of supportive feedback on Twitter.

In an interview with HuffPost, Han said she wanted to speak out for the sake of her 5-year-old daughter and 3-year-old son, both of whom she mentions in the clip.

“I kept wondering, ‘What if my kids had been with me and heard that comment?’ Over the years, I’ve developed a thick skin against ignorance and racism, but my children haven’t. And I know many other people, young and old, haven’t either.”

After years of intentionally brushing off similar comments, Han said she “finally realized that no response is not the right response” to uncomfortable encounters.

“I realized I bear a responsibility to speak up for my kids and others, especially since I have the honor of a larger platform and megaphone than most people.”

Watch the video above to hear the rest of Han’s powerful message.