Discussion: Racism - Part 3

[Greens]

They would have to legislate the banning of Nazi protests, right? As far as I know under the constitution every group, including the Westboro Baptist Church and Nazis, is allowed to hold peaceful protests.

 

[NotNickFury]

As should be the case here. As the nation has discussed in the past and no doubt will long after we're gone, you may not like what a person has to say, but that doesn't mean they should be banned from assembling. That just opens up a whole slippery slope argument of where does it stop?

 

[Herolee10]

As bad and horrible as this weekend was, I'm really worried on the chaos that will happen if the Alt Right folks march over to the bigger cities like D.C., Los Angeles, Chicago, with their hate and nonsense due to the higher level of violence that is bound to erupt when they come into contact with the populaces there.

I mean does anyone know if it is possible for other states to start banning them from having their rallies there?

 

[hellified]

My first post on here yesterday stated that Nazi rallies should be dispersed and the attendees arrested if they don't. That was met with rabid foam. Nazis shouldn't be able to rally. They are a gang with a detrimental goal of death.

The left, which are claiming to be the moral superiors here, are right down in the pit throwing mud back while the party leaders on the left are trying to create fears of slavery and oppression. This only strengthens the opposition that are trying to create fears of xenophobia. Tearing down statues and flipping them off and spitting on them aren't going to help the situation.

It's Identity Politics. Politics in America is becoming ever more polarizing. We are expected to fall in one extreme camp or another. There is no middle anymore. Bipartisanship is dead. The assertion that you are either with one side or the other and your silence is agreement is false.

Identity politics is the first step to authoritarianism. In order to have complete obedience from a people, individual freedom of thought and action must be subjugated. Identity politics facilitates this process by convincing individuals that they belong to a single group that shares mutual desires and concerns. Flames of fear and hatred, already inherent to the individual, are fanned in a direction that suits the agenda of the party leaders. The party leaders then claim to have a solution, but only lacks the necessary power to make it possible. Desperate for a solution, the individual willingly hands over their freedom of thought and action over to tyranny. We've seen this countless times in history.

Practice valuing and respecting one another. Condemn the extremists on both sides without stooping to their level. This means we ought not to assume the worst in one another. Through this, we rob the party leaders in the world of their primary tool for gaining power. It's either a Civil War or a peaceful transition at this point.

everything you said is everything thats built america. Politics in America is becoming ever more polarizing. when HASN'T IT???

All the things you describe and mentioned are literally all the things thats baked into the foundation of this country and society. It took a civil war (blood shed) to end slavery as an institution. It took a civil rights struggle (more blood shed) to end jim crow laws... whats the pattern you see here?

If you don't have white supremacy and the kkk you don't have the black panthers, antifa, etc

If you don't have police brutality and a skewed justice system you don't have black lives matter.

Ever heard of the phrase the hate that hate produced?

No reasonable human being should stand on the side line and watch organizations that have a looong history of violence and racial oppression gather and declare they are coming back. This is NOT a situation where if you ignore them they will go away. They won't. You have to cut that cancer out. The confederates LOST...the nazis LOST...if they want round 2 then so be it.

 

[Sithborg]

My first post on here yesterday stated that Nazi rallies should be dispersed and the attendees arrested if they don't. That was met with rabid foam. Nazis shouldn't be able to rally. They are a gang with a detrimental goal of death.

The left, which are claiming to be the moral superiors here, are right down in the pit throwing mud back while the party leaders on the left are trying to create fears of slavery and oppression. This only strengthens the opposition that are trying to create fears of xenophobia. Tearing down statues and flipping them off and spitting on them aren't going to help the situation.

It's Identity Politics. Politics in America is becoming ever more polarizing. We are expected to fall in one extreme camp or another. There is no middle anymore. Bipartisanship is dead. The assertion that you are either with one side or the other and your silence is agreement is false.

Identity politics is the first step to authoritarianism. In order to have complete obedience from a people, individual freedom of thought and action must be subjugated. Identity politics facilitates this process by convincing individuals that they belong to a single group that shares mutual desires and concerns. Flames of fear and hatred, already inherent to the individual, are fanned in a direction that suits the agenda of the party leaders. The party leaders then claim to have a solution, but only lacks the necessary power to make it possible. Desperate for a solution, the individual willingly hands over their freedom of thought and action over to tyranny. We've seen this countless times in history.

Practice valuing and respecting one another. Condemn the extremists on both sides without stooping to their level. This means we ought not to assume the worst in one another. Through this, we rob the party leaders in the world of their primary tool for gaining power. It's either a Civil War or a peaceful transition at this point.

It isn't extreme to oppose the goddamn Klan or Nazis. It is the barest a person can do to be a decent human being. Counter protesting the hate groups is important. It is important to show them that they are not strong, that they are outnumbered.

But it is going to be dangerous. The nazis were clearly prepared for trouble. But you read the reports of the churches terrorized by the nazis. By what the small group to counter protesters experienced when they were out numbered the night before, to even attempt to place any blame on the counter protesters is ignorant. The Charlottesville police were outgunned by the nazis. And then let that sink in.

Sadly, I see Charlottesville being a relatively minor incident. UC Berkely just announced "freedom of speech" year. Which based on past incidents of them having regressive speakers, is not going to end well.

 

[SV Fan]

everything you said is everything thats built america. Politics in America is becoming ever more polarizing. when HASN'T IT???

You can argue it gets hot and cold. I don't believe it was this bad 25 years ago but I think the combination of right wing radio, which lead to more partisan left wing media as well combined with the Internet(where everybody can have an opinion and say it without showing their face) has taken us to where we are today

 

[squeekness]

As should be the case here. As the nation has discussed in the past and no doubt will long after we're gone, you may not like what a person has to say, but that doesn't mean they should be banned from assembling. That just opens up a whole slippery slope argument of where does it stop?

As much as it pains me to speak on behalf of hate groups, I do have to agree with you here. It is dangerous to shut only certain people down. The trick is how do we do things peacefully? Doesn't seem like we can right now.

 

[Sithborg]

A lot of Klan rallies had counter protests that were peaceful. It can happen.

But based on the Nazis we saw this weekend, it is not going to happen. They are militarized.

 

[SuperT]

As should be the case here. As the nation has discussed in the past and no doubt will long after we're gone, you may not like what a person has to say, but that doesn't mean they should be banned from assembling. That just opens up a whole slippery slope argument of where does it stop?

This is a trash opinion - hate speech should not be accepted ever in this country, these people are advocating for getting rid of racial minorities. They should never be provided any platform to share their rhetoric.

 

[Sithborg]

Which is why counter protesting exists.

It is an easy thing to denounce this as something that should be banned. But, as our own history has shown, our government is not a great judge of deciding what is and isn't acceptable.

 

[squeekness]

A lot of Klan rallies had counter protests that were peaceful. It can happen.

But based on the Nazis we saw this weekend, it is not going to happen. They are militarized.

I know, right? The concept of attending a "peaceful" rally without bringing their assault rifles seems to be a bit beyond some of these guys.

 

[Greens]

This is a trash opinion - hate speech should not be accepted ever in this country, these people are advocating for getting rid of racial minorities. They should never be provided any platform to share their rhetoric.

You're at odds with a lot of people on that. America prides itself on allowing all speech, as opposed to Canada or a lot of European countries where certain opinions aren't allowed to be heard.

There's certainly an argument for curtailing hate speech, but there would have to be a movement for that.

 

[Wylie Times]

This is a trash opinion - hate speech should not be accepted ever in this country, these people are advocating for getting rid of racial minorities. They should never be provided any platform to share their rhetoric.

These groups aren't just racist, they're also homophobic, Antisemitic, Islamaphoii and misogynist. This isn't a clash of two differing political ideologies, this is one group insisting that it's their right to subjugate and/or eliminate other groups.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

They would have to legislate the banning of Nazi protests, right? As far as I know under the constitution every group, including the Westboro Baptist Church and Nazis, is allowed to hold peaceful protests.

You have the right to peaceful protest. If you are going to start inciting violence with racism, that is the equivalent of shouting fire in a crowded movie theater. This is exactly what a law like Disturbing the Peace covers. If you are going to walk around with fire, shouting racist chants, yep, you should be arrested.

 

[Donner]

This is tough one. Obviously, Nazi rallies in Germany are a big no-go and rightfully so, given the history.

But given the US' history with slavery and racism, white nationalism rallies being allowed to operate publicly seems really stupid.

I am of the camp that people in large groups are inherently dumb and make dumb decisions and do dumb things. And a lot of times, those dumb decisions incite violence. I almost think it's the duty of the government to protect people from themselves sometimes (like I think vaccinations should be mandatory for children going to school). But it's not as simple as just banning Nazi rallies. The education system (especially in the Southern states) needs a major overhaul and maybe that can combat the toxic ideas that racist parents put in their children's heads.

 

[Mad Ones]

You're at odds with a lot of people on that. America prides itself on allowing all speech, as opposed to Canada or a lot of European countries where certain opinions aren't allowed to be heard.

lmao what??

 

[Greens]

lmao what??

Is it not true? The Westboro Baptist Church wasn't allowed to enter Canada and the UK. I know in my country and many other European countries you aren't allowed to deny the Holocaust happened. Some countries also don't allow you to say profane things about the King or Queen.

 

[Donner]

You're at odds with a lot of people on that. America prides itself on allowing all speech, as opposed to Canada or a lot of European countries where certain opinions aren't allowed to be heard.

There's certainly an argument for curtailing hate speech, but there would have to be a movement for that.

Canadians were turned away at the US border after Trump was elected because they were going to protest. The US isn't always free speech.

 

[Greens]

Canadians were turned away at the US border after Trump was elected because they were going to protest. The US isn't always free speech.

The US isn't a free for all, but I believe that generally there are less restrictions on a government level on what people are allowed to say even if it is hurtful.

 

[Donner]

The US isn't a free for all, but I believe that generally there are less restrictions on a government level on what people are allowed to say even if it is hurtful.

Maybe. Probably depends on the state. We have white rallies in Canada as well, but so few people show up and the media often doesn't care that it just kind of falls away. And Alberta (where I live), is considered kind of a hub for neo-Nazi *****bags. But their numbers are small. And they fit that stereotype of being violent losers and so the majority of the time, the leaders of these groups are in prison and can't even attend the rallies. But they do have their rallies and they don't get arrested for it.

There was even a blog of some asshat who would write articles calling for the death and rape of numerous women. He operated this blog for years until finally, it was shut down because his threats had become a little too worrying. And then he died and no one cared anymore. I don't think our hate speech/crime laws are so restrictive that Canadians are somehow repressed (or oppressed).

 

[RockSP]

Something to show to any "both sides" friends/family/co-workers you may have: http://fozmeadows.tumblr.com/post/164164615366/you-antifa-guys-are-actually-more-hateful-and

 

[ludovica]

Something to show to any "both sides" friends/family/co-workers you may have: http://fozmeadows.tumblr.com/post/164164615366/you-antifa-guys-are-actually-more-hateful-and

Thank you, everyone should save the link.

 

[terry78]

Another thing I notice and it's probably been ongoing regardless is that any white people that are in support of anything remotely helpful to black people are deemed as race traitors or ****** lovers, to coin a phrase. I see it online constantly, in places I'd never expect. This **** really shows you who people are.

 

[chaseter]

everything you said is everything thats built america. Politics in America is becoming ever more polarizing. when HASN'T IT???

All the things you describe and mentioned are literally all the things thats baked into the foundation of this country and society. It took a civil war (blood shed) to end slavery as an institution. It took a civil rights struggle (more blood shed) to end jim crow laws... whats the pattern you see here?

If you don't have white supremacy and the kkk you don't have the black panthers, antifa, etc

If you don't have police brutality and a skewed justice system you don't have black lives matter.

Ever heard of the phrase the hate that hate produced?

No reasonable human being should stand on the side line and watch organizations that have a looong history of violence and racial oppression gather and declare they are coming back. This is NOT a situation where if you ignore them they will go away. They won't. You have to cut that cancer out. The confederates LOST...the nazis LOST...if they want round 2 then so be it.

It goes up and down as someone above mentioned. Wartime and depressions usually create unity. In the past 25 years, it was 2001-2003 and that took a terrorist attack. It then revamped under Bush's second term and has been escalating and will continue to do so. It's the craziest it's been in my lifetime.

I personally do not want to see another civil war. We are legally all equal. Your examples above where at a time when people were not legally equal...thus bloodshed was required. I do not think we will go backwards legally. That is why we have the Supreme Court. How people act individually cannot be legislated and we can only condemn and punish through legal avenues. This isn't a pandemic. This is literally hundreds of idiotic, racist people. Hundreds of thousands...millions of people would lead to a Civil War. I just don't see it hitting that.

Hate does produce hate. MLK recognized that wasn't a viable solution for an oppressed minority and he is one of the greatest revolutionists of the 20th century for recognizing that. Hate does not win over the middle.

 

[DeadPresident]

War time and depressions create unity through identity, usually not unity as a broad concept.

Psychologists even have theory based on the increase in prejudice that occurs between in/out groups during economic hardship, it's called "Relative Deprivation Theory".