Discussion: The Economy, National Debt, And Other Financial Issues II

[wiegeabo]

That won't work because once you give someone some power, they'll abuse it when given the chance. And who do you put in charge of the banks? Workers who don't know how banks and finance works? How is that going to help?


What needs to happen is for the people to make government and business remember who the bosses really are. It's us, the consumers. Business isn't supposed to tell us what we want. We're supposed to tell business what to make, when, how, and how much.

If people would start flexing the power they've forgotten they have, they'd be surprised what they can accomplish (see SOPA/PIPA).

What's really missing in the system is accountability and fear of failure. Business doesn't care what we want because they know the government will bail them out, and the people will let them under the guise that it's "protecting jobs". When all it's really doing is maintaining inefficiencies and promoting risky behavior, thereby threatening jobs. Companies need to stop being bailed out and babied. And the barriers that keep out small businesses and new entrepreneurs, and therefore competition, need to go away as well. The last thing big business wants is actual competition in the marketplace. Because competition forces them to innovate, it creates jobs, which lures away employees (meaning they can't underpay or mistreat them, thereby reducing the need for unions which have become big business corporations themselves), and it means they have to start making smart decisions and stop throwing money away (especially to overpaid CEO's and their golden parachutes).

 

[wiegeabo]

Here's an idea.

If a company needs to be bailed out, the government requires that it must fire the CEO (and possibly other executives) that got them there, and they aren't allowed to draw any severance package (no golden parachutes).

I wonder how many companies would 'suddenly' no longer need a bail out and figure out ways to survive.

 

[Axl Van Sixx]

That won't work because once you give someone some power, they'll abuse it when given the chance. And who do you put in charge of the banks? Workers who don't know how banks and finance works? How is that going to help?

How about the ordinary people who work in banking and finance? Not everybody who works at a bank is pulling down billion-dollar bonuses like Jamie Dimon or Lloyd Blankfein. Get ordinary accountants, brokers, etc. to do it.

If all the workers had a democratic voice in how their enterprises are run, there would be less abuse of power than there is now.

What needs to happen is for the people to make government and business remember who the bosses really are. It's us, the consumers. Business isn't supposed to tell us what we want. We're supposed to tell business what to make, when, how, and how much.

If people would start flexing the power they've forgotten they have, they'd be surprised what they can accomplish (see SOPA/PIPA).

It's interesting that you use the word "consumers" instead of "citizens". This reflects a trend that's been going on for the last few decades as the political system has become more and more corporatized and less responsive to the desires of average Americans. What's important these days isn't expressing your democratic voice in the political sphere, but buying lots of products and keeping the economy going (hence George Bush's answer to how Americans could help after 9/11: "go shopping, go to Disney World").

The fact is, in a capitalist economy, there's no way you can order business around - telling them "what to make, when, how, and how much." That's the whole point of the system - these giant corporations, which are our entire economy revolves around, are in private hands and we have no influence over their decision-making.

This is exactly the problem that a planned economy under democratic control would solve. For the first time ever, ordinary citizens would have a real voice in how their economy is run.

What's really missing in the system is accountability and fear of failure. Business doesn't care what we want because they know the government will bail them out, and the people will let them under the guise that it's "protecting jobs". When all it's really doing is maintaining inefficiencies and promoting risky behavior, thereby threatening jobs. Companies need to stop being bailed out and babied.

How is this going to happen? These corporations have become so massive that if they go down, they affect the whole economy (hence "too big to fail"). And the reason they know the government will always bail them out is because they effectively control the government.

And the barriers that keep out small businesses and new entrepreneurs, and therefore competition, need to go away as well. The last thing big business wants is actual competition in the marketplace.

This is an ahistorical notion. We can't go back to the days of small business and competition. The direction of capitalism always inclines towards giant monopolies, because if you have competitive businesses, eventually somebody wins that competition.

Because competition forces them to innovate, it creates jobs, which lures away employees (meaning they can't underpay or mistreat them, thereby reducing the need for unions which have become big business corporations themselves), and it means they have to start making smart decisions and stop throwing money away (especially to overpaid CEO's and their golden parachutes).

Competition doesn't create jobs. The only thing that creates jobs is if companies see a potential growth market, and right now, there's simply not enough demand for that, so no jobs get created.

 

[enterthemadness]

Cashless economy. They want it. Pretty sure Book of Revelations warned about this.

http://m.cbsnews.com/storysynopsis....ving-towards-cashless-economy/&catid=57399610

 

[8wid]

If you've never seen what the western United States looks like after the housing bubble burst. I've never lived there, but have visited friends in northern California as of this year and it still looks like this in many places.

California Real Estate Crash Crisis Meltdown - Abandoned residential developments March 28, 2010

 

[Paradoxium]

You ever heard of Karmic justice?

Since student loans are bubbling up and not dischargeable (can't default on loan), lot of kids will be saddled with giant debts. All the while job markets are depressed (deflationary wages) or miss matched (under supply of highly demanded skill - see oil). Young adults simply can't afford houses you see.

Meanwhile the BABY BOOMERS, got these McMansions, wants to profit and retire, by selling them to the young adults.

See problem? t:

There is some justice in this world. Bless you Lady Karma.

 

[Paradoxium]

The amount Americans owe on student loans is far higher than earlier estimates and could lead some consumers to postpone buying homes, potentially slowing the housing recovery, U.S. officials said Wednesday.

Total student debt outstanding appears to have surpassed $1 trillion late last year, said officials at the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau, a federal agency created in the wake of the financial crisis. That would be roughly 16% higher than an estimate earlier this year by the Federal Reserve Bank of New York.

This is going to destroy retirements and those who currently own homes. You’re finished folks.

Here’s the problem — we have a demographics issue, as everyone who has paid attention knows. That is, there are fewer young people compared to old, which leads to pressures on things like Medicare and Social Security.

But the traditional path is for older people to downsize their economic lives. They sell their big house and buy a smaller one, or live in an apartment.

To sell it someone has to have money to buy it. Who is that going to be?

It’s not going to be the young adults now in college because we have screwed them by saddling them with this debt. They thus cannot qualify for a loan to buy your house!

http://market-ticker.org/akcs-www?singlepost=2900051

 

[8wid]

The US is on the verge of bankruptcy anyway. What will they do with the loans of this kind then?

 

[enterthemadness]

The US is on the verge of bankruptcy anyway. What will they do with the loans of this kind then?

....this is becoming more...

 

[marvelman2006]

What would happen if the US had to declare bankruptcy? would loans all be washed away and go back to zero? Im curious. At what point does the economy just cave in and riots and looting start?

 

[Destructus86]

Well...that's it then. I guess I can never sell. I'm stuck in an area I really want to move from...but can't because houses are not selling. There are around a dozen in my neighborhood up for sale and not one has moved...well, unless you count the bank owned or the ones that eventually went up as lease.

 

[Venom'sDad]

^ In the same boat.....

 

[samsnee]

This is a great behind the scenes article on last year's debt deal and why it ultimately didn't happen. It sounds like Obama's team made some bad assumptions, while Boehner didn't think he could get the votes from Tea Party bloc.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/04/01/m...d-the-debt-deal.html?pagewanted=1&_r=2&ref=us

 

[Pagan]

Cashless economy. They want it. Pretty sure Book of Revelations warned about this.

http://m.cbsnews.com/storysynopsis....ving-towards-cashless-economy/&catid=57399610

Yes I'm sure John the madman who was exiled because syphillis was eating his brain foresaw just this event.

 

[enterthemadness]

Yes I'm sure John the madman who was exiled because syphillis was eating his brain foresaw just this event.

Seriously? Well...still, not a fan of things like this.

 

[Pagan]

Seriously? Well...still, not a fan of things like this.

there are some perfectly legitimate concerns about moving to a no-cash society. no need to attach it to some ancient myth.

 

[Pagan]

You know it's funny to see just how hard the GOP has to spin reality to woo voters.

Welcome to Obamaville

 

[wiegeabo]

Canada is ending production of their penny next month, with the final shipments going out later this year. Then they'll start to pull them out of circulation.

And some are saying their nickel isn't far behind.

 

[enterthemadness]

Canada is ending production of their penny next month, with the final shipments going out later this year. Then they'll start to pull them out of circulation.

And some are saying their nickel isn't far behind.

I think that's horrible. Then again, I collect my coins...and when I have enough, I wrap them up in the $10 quarters, $5 dimes, $2 nickels, $0.50 pennies. But yeah. Just costing too much for the penny. If or when the US says they are stop making them, I'll keep my pennies. But we should always have the nickel.

or maybe we'll make 30 cent pieces and 50 cent pieces again...

 

[8wid]

Carlos Justo--The Rise & Fall Of Miami's Luxury Realtor To The Stars

 

[wiegeabo]

Well, when it costs a cent and a half to produce every cent, it makes no sense to keep making it.

Right now, to produce and ship a US penny costs almost 2.5 cents.

 

[8wid]

Clay Shirky: Why SOPA is a bad idea

 

[Comics N' Toons]

Has anyone thought about the collapse of the dollar and the eventual non-use of the dollar. What will happen to people's wealth, how will people buy food? What will happen to industry in general etc?

 

[enterthemadness]

Has anyone thought about the collapse of the dollar and the eventual non-use of the dollar. What will happen to people's wealth, how will people buy food? What will happen to industry in general etc?

North American Union's Amero? The NAU doesn't need to be formed, but America could still have that over the dollar. Or force everybody to use debit/credit cards as payments, not cash. Oh wait, that won't work out well...

 

[Comics N' Toons]

North American Union's Amero? The NAU doesn't need to be formed, but America could still have that over the dollar. Or force everybody to use debit/credit cards as payments, not cash. Oh wait, that won't work out well...

That's insane. That would destroy the average person's wealth. Too dramatic a step if you ask me. We need to find a way to save the dollar