Discussion: The Second Amendment II

[BlackLantern]

I think youd see a 60/40 split....people are going to back whoever they think is the most powerful, basically to save their own skin

 

[Optimus_Prime_]

C'mon people. Bad guys don't follow the rules. The Virginia Tech shooter killed 32 people. But wait! Didn't he know that you're not supposed to bring a gun to campus? He probably did. Which is why he shot up a campus with impunity.

"Bad guys don't follow the rules", but in countries with strong rule of law, you have a much smaller percentage of people who qualify as "bad guys". There are a lot of people in Darfur and certain destabilized middle Eastern Countries that have killed, stolen, or defaulted to extreme tactics to survive. Look at Katrina if you want a local example. Rule of law broke down after the Hurricane ruined their infrostructure, and people used extreme methods to survive. In this country we may have an excessive prison population, but we're relatively safe compared to countries which don't enforce laws. Yes, I'm certain you're VATech shooter knew he wasn't supposed to carry around arsenals of weapons with him. I'm also relatively certain he knew excessive acts of violence and murder were also wrong, but I'm sure you're not advocating Government take a hands off approach to murder. Ask yourselve another question: how many times have you been shot at in college? If you answered [most likely] never, or once, or even twice you're already better off than people who live in countries where beheadings are an everyday occurance.

 

[Marx]

I thought you were a realist? A pragmatist? Where's the logic in facing the Empire with sticks and stones?

As I said earlier, it's incredibly sad to see those on the right twist the second amendment into 'the ability to overthrow a tyrannical government'. The current gun policy is the exact same one that President W Bush had...yet there was little to no outrage by the same people who are now condemning President Obama. Partisan politics at its 'finest' man.

 

[StorminNorman]

Repeating the same lines over and over again does no good if you aren't willing to explain the logic behind them. Explain to me how it requires any "twisting" to come to that conclusion regarding the Second Amendment? I mean we have pretty explicit quotes that prove that point.

 

[SentinelMind]

Jefferson is wrong unless the people have RPG's, Drones, tanks, and tactical nukes.


Thinking that you can match the government with your glock is the real naivety.

So we should disarm because you believe there is no hope in such a hypothetical scenario. Let's make that hypothetical scenario even easier. Throw out baby with bathwater.

 

[dnno1]

...*sigh*

yes, people can get guns in states that have laxer gun laws then go to states with strict gun laws and commit crimes. So to people with your political persuasion, we should take away all the guns from law abiding people and implement full gun control, because that will stop people who want to commit crimes from obtaining guns.

Like Kel and others have stated, enforce the regulations of who is allowed to obtain a gun better. Strict background checks, mental health screenings, etc.
C'mon people. Bad guys don't follow the rules. The Virginia Tech shooter killed 32 people. But wait! Didn't he know that you're not supposed to bring a gun to campus? He probably did. Which is why he shot up a campus with impunity.

If you still support gun control, you join an illustrious group of humanity's greatest people such as Nazi Germany, Soviet Russia, Imperial Japan, Maoist China, Khmer Cambodia, and others. Yeah, I went there.

Enforce the regulation of who is allowed to obtain a gun better? The point is that the regulations are different in each State. Try to enforce the one in one State and a person can just go to another State where the regulation is laxer or not even present to avoid it. This is why there needs to be more stringent Federal regulation, but because of the gun lobby, it is extremely difficult to do. Furthermore, you can throw up all the statistics about the fact that arming the populous lowers crime, but the fact of the matter is that there are more gun deaths per person in states that have high gun ownership rates. Rachel Maddow addressed this as a fantasy in her show yesterday and I agree with her on that.

 

[BlackLantern]

and if someone wants to obtain a gun illegally, they will

I think many people underestimate how many firearms are just floating around out there, in the wind

dnno wants to take everyones guns and let the government run healthcare...let me ask you dnno, do you believe in any sort of personal responsibility??

 

[dnno1]

and if someone wants to obtain a gun illegally, they will

I think many people underestimate how many firearms are just floating around out there, in the wind

dnno wants to take everyones guns and let the government run healthcare...let me ask you dnno, do you believe in any sort of personal responsibility??

I didn't say that I wanted to take away everyone's gun, I just want to make it harder for criminals to get them.

 

[BlackLantern]

well criminals tend to get them illegally....a good majority of illegal weapons in this country are imported from other countries

 

[dnno1]

well criminals tend to get them illegally....a good majority of illegal weapons in this country are imported from other countries

They are getting them legally too. The thing is that for the illegal procurements, the person giving them the weapon should be considered a criminal as well and that is what the regulation should focus on.

 

[BlackLantern]

or how about not overlegislating due to an emotional overreaction?? that could help too

 

[Tao43]

To everybody saying that you can just go to a different state to purchase a weapon, you are wrong. Regardless of what that state's background check comprises of, you cannot purchase across state lines. This is from the ATF:

A person may only buy a firearm (handgun) within the person's own state, except that he or she may buy a rifle or shotgun, in person, at a licensee's (holder of a Federal Firearms License) premises in any state, provided the sale complies with state laws applicable in the state of sale and the state where the purchaser resides. [18 U. S. C 922( a)( 3) and (5), 922( b)( 3), 27 CFR 178.29]

You can purchase a handgun online, but it has to be bought from a holder of an FFL and shipped to a holder of an FFL in your state who will perform your background check.

If you purchase a weapon from an individual across state lines and transport it back to your state, you and the seller have violated Federal law.

 

[StorminNorman]

Enforce the regulation of who is allowed to obtain a gun better? The point is that the regulations are different in each State. Try to enforce the one in one State and a person can just go to another State where the regulation is laxer or not even present to avoid it. This is why there needs to be more stringent Federal regulation, but because of the gun lobby, it is extremely difficult to do. Furthermore, you can throw up all the statistics about the fact that arming the populous lowers crime, but the fact of the matter is that there are more gun deaths per person in states that have high gun ownership rates. Rachel Maddow addressed this as a fantasy in her show yesterday and I agree with her on that.

Are you familiar with Kennesaw, Georgia?

 

[BlackLantern]

how is the seller in violation? he has no idea what you are doing with that firearm once the sale is completed

 

[Tao43]

how is the seller in violation? he has no idea what you are doing with that firearm once the sale is completed

If you purchase it from an individual (the seller) in another state who does not have a Federal Firearms License, the seller has engaged in illegal interstate firearms trafficing. You have to purchase from a licensed dealer who can perform background checks if you go to a different state. Plus, you can only buy rifles or shotguns from a different state...not a handgun.

 

[Paroxysm]

Ok, let's try something a little different.

Do you have home insurance, or any other type of insurance that you're not required to own due to govt regulations? If you do, have you ever needed to make a claim? If you haven't needed to make a claim (which is most people), why do you have insurance?

I'm not some assclown who drinks beer and fires his ak into the air for the lulz. Owning a firearm is like having insurance. You hope you never need to use it, but it's there in case you need to use it.

When's the last time your property had a fire? Never? Why don't you throw out your fire extinguisher, your smoke alarms, etc.?

Lets not, I'm tired on these stupid scenarios you keep trying to paint.

I feel the US hasn't taken definitive steps to curb the preventable epidemic of gun violence, plain and simple.

Oh and the last time I checked, I couldn't go on a shooting spree with my insurance.

well criminals tend to get them illegally....a good majority of illegal weapons in this country are imported from other countries

Pretty sure a good majority of illegal weapons in the US are from the US.

I know all the guns in Mexico beings used to are all guns from Texas and Arizonan.

 

[BlackLantern]

oh ok my fault...missed the bit about the FFL

 

[StorminNorman]

Rachel Maddow has also interested me, but I never actually watch her show. She is quoted a lot around here, so I always took her to be a relatively sound opinion and the best of MSNBC. I hope that clip isn't reflective of her normal work. Maddow's logic is confusing to the point of bizarre.

Her claim that the fact an armed gunman was powerless to stop the tragedy is undermined by the very interview with Ed Schultz she plays. In it the armed witness stated he had to run to the scene and got there long enough after the incident that the shooter was already restrained. She tries to describe the man as a witness, but he didn't know which person was the gunman.

So because a man near, but not at the scene of the shooting, who didn't arrive until after the shooter had been detained, failed to stop the gunman - someone who was actually there to witness the shooting wouldn't have had anymore luck?

Oh Maddow, I am so glad we have progressives like you to set us simpletons straight!

 

[Tao43]

I know all the guns in Mexico beings used to are all guns from Texas and Arizonan.

Wrong.


http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2009/04/02/myth-percent-small-fraction-guns-mexico-come/

 

[Paroxysm]

To everybody saying that you can just go to a different state to purchase a weapon, you are wrong. Regardless of what that state's background check comprises of, you cannot purchase across state lines. This is from the ATF:

A person may only buy a firearm (handgun) within the person's own state, except that he or she may buy a rifle or shotgun, in person, at a licensee's (holder of a Federal Firearms License) premises in any state, provided the sale complies with state laws applicable in the state of sale and the state where the purchaser resides. [18 U. S. C 922( a)( 3) and (5), 922( b)( 3), 27 CFR 178.29]

You can purchase a handgun online, but it has to be bought from a holder of an FFL and shipped to a holder of an FFL in your state who will perform your background check.

If you purchase a weapon from an individual across state lines and transport it back to your state, you and the seller have violated Federal law.

How many people actually follow that rule, do they have people checking cars at state lines?

 

[BlackLantern]

How many people actually follow that rule, do they have people checking cars at state lines?

I doubt that....it's a tough one to enforce

 

[Tao43]

How many people actually follow that rule, do they have people checking cars at state lines?

I'm sure they don't, but it does not change the fact that purchasing a weapon in a different state from a non-licensed individual is illegal. Therefore, it is an illegally obtained weapon.

 

[Paroxysm]

Wrong.


http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2009/04/02/myth-percent-small-fraction-guns-mexico-come/

A year old story from Fox news? Yeah, no.

It's obvious that not all the guns the cartels have access to are coming exclusively from the United States, but it is also true that the largest percentage of these guns are coming from the United State.

Three Arizona gun dealers are among the top 12 American dealers in supplying Mexican crime guns.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/dennis-a-henigan/on-guns-tucson-shows-two_b_809123.html

 

[Paroxysm]

I'm sure they don't, but it does not change the fact that purchasing a weapon in a different state from a non-licensed individual is illegal. Therefore, it is an illegally obtained weapon.

No duh, but it's not going to stop someone, from taking a gun across state lines.

 

[doih]

Don't forget Jesus.

"Among the many misdeeds of the British rule in India, history will look upon the Act depriving a whole nation of arms as the blackest. If we want the Arms Act to be repealed, if we want to learn the use of arms, here is a golden opportunity. If the middle classes render voluntary help to Government in the hour of its trial, distrust will disappear, and the ban on possessing arms will be withdrawn." -Gandhi

"If someone has a gun and is trying to kill you, it would be reasonable to shoot back with your own gun." -The Dalai Lama

"Though defensive violence will always be 'a sad necessity' in the eyes of men of principle, it would be still more unfortunate if wrongdoers should dominate just men." -St. Augustine

If we're done playing the quote game, please produce evidence that gun control saves lives in the US. The fact is that US jurisdictions with strict gun control have higher rates of violent crime.

Enforce the regulation of who is allowed to obtain a gun better? The point is that the regulations are different in each State. Try to enforce the one in one State and a person can just go to another State where the regulation is laxer or not even present to avoid it. This is why there needs to be more stringent Federal regulation, but because of the gun lobby, it is extremely difficult to do. Furthermore, you can throw up all the statistics about the fact that arming the populous lowers crime, but the fact of the matter is that there are more gun deaths per person in states that have high gun ownership rates. Rachel Maddow addressed this as a fantasy in her show yesterday and I agree with her on that.

First of all:

To everybody saying that you can just go to a different state to purchase a weapon, you are wrong. Regardless of what that state's background check comprises of, you cannot purchase across state lines. This is from the ATF:

A person may only buy a firearm (handgun) within the person's own state, except that he or she may buy a rifle or shotgun, in person, at a licensee's (holder of a Federal Firearms License) premises in any state, provided the sale complies with state laws applicable in the state of sale and the state where the purchaser resides. [18 U. S. C 922( a)( 3) and (5), 922( b)( 3), 27 CFR 178.29]

You can purchase a handgun online, but it has to be bought from a holder of an FFL and shipped to a holder of an FFL in your state who will perform your background check.

If you purchase a weapon from an individual across state lines and transport it back to your state, you and the seller have violated Federal law.

^^
this guy knows what he's talking about.

Secondly, look up the DC murder rate. Then look up the place that Norm mentioned. Then look at the wiki page posted awhile back. Let's leave aside the international examples for a moment: we can compare the same city/state/country with itself, before and after major changes in gun laws. The evidence is consistent- when you remove pre-existing guns from law abiding citizens, and criminals have a field day. Allow law-abiding citizens to defend themselves when needed, and crime drops. Notice how no one has posted an opposite?

Think about the practicalities for a second here: please, explain to us how you plan to erase a few hundred million guns from the US? And, of course, all the others from the rest of the world (since you've already admitted that guns obtainable in one location can be moved to another). Yes, people die in homicides/suicides via gun. But people also save their lives, other peoples lives, their property, with guns. Most of the time that doesn't make the news though.

"Bad guys don't follow the rules", but in countries with strong rule of law, you have a much smaller percentage of people who qualify as "bad guys". There are a lot of people in Darfur and certain destabilized middle Eastern Countries that have killed, stolen, or defaulted to extreme tactics to survive. Look at Katrina if you want a local example. Rule of law broke down after the Hurricane ruined their infrostructure, and people used extreme methods to survive. In this country we may have an excessive prison population, but we're relatively safe compared to countries which don't enforce laws. Yes, I'm certain you're VATech shooter knew he wasn't supposed to carry around arsenals of weapons with him. I'm also relatively certain he knew excessive acts of violence and murder were also wrong, but I'm sure you're not advocating Government take a hands off approach to murder. Ask yourselve another question: how many times have you been shot at in college? If you answered [most likely] never, or once, or even twice you're already better off than people who live in countries where beheadings are an everyday occurance.

First of all, I'm not dumb, naive, or inexperienced. I am QUITE familiar with the what happens in poor countries.

Secondly, this has nothing to do with the debate over whether gun control is good for the US or not. Yes, there are fewer criminals in the US than in poor countries so your chance of being vicitimised is lower. But don't you want to be able to protect yourself if the probability gods aren't smiling on you on a particular day? Sean Taylor lived in a wealthy area. Didn't stop people from breaking into his house and killing him.

Oh, and since you mentioned Katrina:

Lets not, I'm tired on these stupid scenarios you keep trying to paint.

I feel the US hasn't taken definitive steps to curb the preventable epidemic of gun violence, plain and simple.

Oh and the last time I checked, I couldn't go on a shooting spree with my insurance.

Pretty sure a good majority of illegal weapons in the US are from the US.

I know all the guns in Mexico beings used to are all guns from Texas and Arizonan.

You're right, the US hasn't done enough. There needs to be more towns like Kennesaw. I say we turn the country into something like the Swiss have. Crime would probably go down, but you guys would still claim guns cause crimes

No duh, but it's not going to stop someone, from taking a gun across state lines.

If you understand this why can't you understand that criminals are not going to obey gun control laws?

As I said earlier, it's incredibly sad to see those on the right twist the second amendment into 'the ability to overthrow a tyrannical government'. The current gun policy is the exact same one that President W Bush had...yet there was little to no outrage by the same people who are now condemning President Obama. Partisan politics at its 'finest' man.

I'm not sure if you're including me in this, but I'm not a member of the right (regardless of what posters labels are or what Norm has come up with in his intellectual *********ion), and my excuse for you not seeing me expressing the same outrage during Bush is that I wasn't posting on the Hype at that time Believe me, I've been making the same argument for ~8 years once I started looking at the evidence.