The Avengers Do you think they did your fav AVENGER justice?

[zentype]

I'm a fan of all the Avengers --even Shield's Hill (mainly due to it being Cobie Smulders playing her role)

But in terms of which one I want to see kick butt, that would have to be the lower powered class: Cap and Hawkeye.

I thought Hawkeye showed how badass he was.

Cap while very good could have been better. Mainly where he and IM were working on restoring the damaged turbine that Hawkeye took out (again Hawkeye=badass) Remember IM isn't really convinced about Cap's skills yet. Having IM fix the turbine AND then rescue Cap afterwards didn't sit well with me.

What would have worked better would have been after Iron Man get's ejected from the turbine, have him begin to tumble and be rescued by Cap (by jumping after him and utilize his acrobatic skills to find footing, grab something to hang onto and pull him up, etc.)

Instead the super soldier spends 5 minutes spraying bullets trying to take out one soldier. And then is hanging on for dear life until he can pull the lever.

Blonsky in TIH was much more impressive as a super soldier (acrobatics, agility, etc.) Cap here was good but could have been much better.

--When something is so good, the flaws really stand out. Which is the case with this (awesome) movie. Cap spending 5 minutes with an automatic rifle trying to take out a normal human and then needing to be rescued shouldn't be enough to change IM's opinion that "The Living Legend lives up to the Legend."

 

[Mr. Immortal]

I'm a fan of all the Avengers --even Shield's Hill (mainly due to it being Cobie Smulders playing her role)

But in terms of which one I want to see kick butt, that would have to be the lower powered class: Cap and Hawkeye.

I thought Hawkeye showed how badass he was.

Cap while very good could have been better. Mainly where he and IM were working on restoring the damaged turbine that Hawkeye took out (again Hawkeye=badass) Remember IM isn't really convinced about Cap's skills yet. Having IM fix the turbine AND then rescue Cap afterwards didn't sit well with me.

What would have worked better would have been after Iron Man get's ejected from the turbine, have him begin to tumble and be rescued by Cap (by jumping after him and utilize his acrobatic skills to find footing, grab something to hang onto and pull him up, etc.)

Instead the super soldier spends 5 minutes spraying bullets trying to take out one soldier. And then is hanging on for dear life until he can pull the lever.

Blonsky in TIH was much more impressive as a super soldier (acrobatics, agility, etc.) Cap here was good but could have been much better.

--When something is so good, the flaws really stand out. Which is the case with this (awesome) movie. Cap spending 5 minutes with an automatic rifle trying to take out a normal human and then needing to be rescued shouldn't be enough to change IM's opinion that "The Living Legend lives up to the Legend."

Allow me to propose a different interpretation of the events... Cap had to stay at the lever so he could pull it for Tony when he needed him to. He could have easily gone down there and destroyed the soldier but that would mean leaving the lever. The soldier had the perfect cover and Cap was out in the open with nothing to defend himself but his own cover fire. Yet he stayed there because he had to help Tony.

 

[hafizbat]

Allow me to propose a different interpretation of the events... Cap had to stay at the lever so he could pull it for Tony when he needed him to. He could have easily gone down there and destroyed the soldier but that would mean leaving the lever. The soldier had the perfect cover and Cap was out in the open with nothing to defend himself but his own cover fire. Yet he stayed there because he had to help Tony.

 

[zentype]

Allow me to propose a different interpretation of the events... Cap had to stay at the lever so he could pull it for Tony when he needed him to. He could have easily gone down there and destroyed the soldier but that would mean leaving the lever. The soldier had the perfect cover and Cap was out in the open with nothing to defend himself but his own cover fire. Yet he stayed there because he had to help Tony.

That's a great alternate interpretation. I applaud you for picking up on something that is subtle enough to miss. What would have been a great way to end this scenario would be Cap asking IM "Are you clear?" and once he got the OK, have Cap "cut loose" so-to-speak. And jump down and take care of the soldier in seconds then rescue Stark per my earlier post. Which would underscore that Cap was just holding back because he needed to guard the lever. Would have been a great way to display Cap's abilities and show Tony that he's more than just a product of a bottle.

Instead however, Iron Man takes out the baddie and saves the day --again.

I love IM, don't get me wrong. The thing is, Tony needed convincing that Cap lived up to the legend. IMO, there wasn't anything Cap did that really should have wowed him at the point where he says "A Living Legend that actually lives up to the Legend" If there was, I missed it.

I know Whedon has mentioned that Cap takes the biggest hit in the editing room. Maybe the full version will have other scenes where this is displayed a bit more.

 

[Mr. Immortal]

That's a great alternate interpretation. I applaud you for picking up on something that is subtle enough to miss. What would have been a great way to end this scenario would be Cap asking IM "Are you clear?" and once he got the OK, have Cap "cut loose" so-to-speak. And jump down and take care of the soldier in seconds then rescue Stark per my earlier post. Which would underscore that Cap was just holding back because he needed to guard the lever. Would have been a great way to display Cap's abilities and show Tony that he's more than just a product of a bottle.

Instead however, Iron Man takes out the baddie and saves the day --again.

I love IM, don't get me wrong. The thing is, Tony needed convincing that Cap lived up to the legend. IMO, there wasn't anything Cap did that really should have wowed him at the point where he says "A Living Legend that actually lives up to the Legend" If there was, I missed it.

I know Whedon has mentioned that Cap takes the biggest hit in the editing room. Maybe the full version will have other scenes where this is displayed a bit more.

That would have been a sweet ending. I'll be devastated if there isn't a proper extended cut. I don't think there will be.

 

[hafizbat]

Well, to be fair, you have to look at Cap's actions BEFORE the lever part. Remember, he took out like 5 SHIELD agents with ease, even throwing one off the ship. He also blocked the grenade. If Cap wasn't there defending the relay system (or whatever its called), we wouldn't have even got to the part with the lever.

 

[Doc Samson]

Instead the super soldier spends 5 minutes spraying bullets trying to take out one soldier. And then is hanging on for dear life until he can pull the lever.

Blonsky in TIH was much more impressive as a super soldier (acrobatics, agility, etc.) Cap here was good but could have been much better.

--When something is so good, the flaws really stand out. Which is the case with this (awesome) movie. Cap spending 5 minutes with an automatic rifle trying to take out a normal human and then needing to be rescued shouldn't be enough to change IM's opinion that "The Living Legend lives up to the Legend."

This is something that bothered me even in TFA, because I had a feeling after seeing TIH that Cap wouldn't be portrayed on the same level as Blonsky. And seeing as how Rogers is supposed to be the perfect Super Soldier recipient, I wouldn't have minded him being portrayed even stronger, more agile, etc.

Also, while I'm obviously a Hulk fan first and foremost, I kind of feel Thor and especially Loki were sort of punchlines at their own expense, literally and figuratively, because of Hulk. I just didn't like that, and I'm not the hugest Thor/Loki fan to begin with. I just felt it cheapened them a bit, in particular your super-villain who this whole team is assembled to defeat.

 

[Blitzkrieg Bop]

Well, it wasn't the serum. Couldn't it's upgrade in effect be the reason why Blonksy became the Abomination?

 

[Joeyjojo72]

Has everyone seen this?

http://www.vulture.com/2012/05/how-much-screen-time-does-each-avenger-get.html

cant confirm it's accuracy. apologies if it's already been posted/discussed.

 

[hafizbat]

Its really not justifiable to say Cap was shortchanged, as he got the most screen time. I guess you could say something about the action bits, but as a character Cap was definitely done justice. Luke the website notes, he's the only one with key scenes with everybody, and he is the last Avenger shown (on the motorcycle), so it definitely was NOT Iron Man and friends, although Stark got the last hero play.

I also used to think Cap should've got that last heroic, but now I realize that if Whedon gave it to Cap, Iron Man would've been shortchanged and the balance would go too much in Cap's direction. So it made sense that Stark got to be the hero, as it also completed the "selfish" character arc.

 

[hafizbat]

Blonsky in TIH was much more impressive as a super soldier (acrobatics, agility, etc.) Cap here was good but could have been much

I don't agree. Blonsky had one scene as a super soldier, and all he did was lure the Hulk into a trap. Literally, he was shown for 10 seconds jumping over the Hulk then dodging two attacks. I don't think that compares to all Cap did in the Avengers, he actually takes out many enemies, and his combat was very fast and skillful. Not to mention I think the whole shot of him running and jumping and flipping to get to the police way outdoes the jumps Blonsky did. Add in that roundhouse kick and I think Cap definitely looked like a super solider.

 

[zentype]

Well, to be fair, you have to look at Cap's actions BEFORE the lever part. Remember, he took out like 5 SHIELD agents with ease, even throwing one off the ship. He also blocked the grenade. If Cap wasn't there defending the relay system (or whatever its called), we wouldn't have even got to the part with the lever.

I definitely won't argue against this. I know and you know how awesome Cap is but there really wasn't a moment where Tony sees it. That's my problem. Sure Tony says he lives up to the legend. But where in the movie does Tony finally see it and go "so he IS more than just a product of a bottle"

Tony's beef with Cap: Nothing special about him but what the bottle gave him.

Cap's beef with Tony: Selfish and would never lay down his life to save others.

At the end of the movie, Cap realizes he was wrong: IM nearly dies saving Manhattan from the Nuke.

But Tony doesn't see where he was wrong about Cap. Sure they shake hands at the end and we assume this. But there's no THE moment. He just says he lives up to the legend --moments after he insulted Cap not long before, and then *rescues* him. What changed Tony's mind? (Remember this was before the big battle, where Cap finally proved his mettle --but still needed help from Thor after being shot. Wow, now that I think about it, Cap needed helping quite a bit)

If you go up and read my post just a bit earlier, that small change would have been all that's needed to be done and bam! Tony is a believer. Instead we see Tony walk him through what to do, tells Cap he isn't wrong when Steve says "it's powered by some sort of electricity" (surprisingly Tony doesn't take this opportunity to make Cap feel stupid here) Then rescues him after Cap pulls the lever. Not the best way to make IM change his mind about Steve being little more than a lab experiment.

Again, this movie was great (I'd give it an 8.5-9). Been a Whedon fan since FF and love that he is a fellow fanboy. But it doesn't mean it's perfect and couldn't have been improved with a little tweaking. I would just expect a fanboy wouldn't have dropped the ball there like he did when it came to that one small part.

 

[zentype]

This is something that bothered me even in TFA, because I had a feeling after seeing TIH that Cap wouldn't be portrayed on the same level as Blonsky. And seeing as how Rogers is supposed to be the perfect Super Soldier recipient, I wouldn't have minded him being portrayed even stronger, more agile, etc.

I loved TFA (was really worried it would blow tbh) so when I saw the reverence they showed the character, I was relieved to say the least. That being said, the weak point of the movie was definitely the action. We never see him doing anything truly (physically) extraordinary other than throw his shield and lift/throw people one handed. Nothing that was really 'wow' though. But considering how worried I was, I loved it and would definitely take a better movie for less action.

Also, while I'm obviously a Hulk fan first and foremost, I kind of feel Thor and especially Loki were sort of punchlines at their own expense, literally and figuratively, because of Hulk. I just didn't like that, and I'm not the hugest Thor/Loki fan to begin with. I just felt it cheapened them a bit, in particular your super-villain who this whole team is assembled to defeat.

You know, I'm not the biggest fan of the Asgardian characters either.. So I had a good laugh (yes at their expense) But I can see where you are coming from. For instance if Hulk sucker punched Cap or Iron Man, I imagine it wouldn't have gone over as well with the audience.. They would have stilled laughed but probably realized how cheap it felt.

Also count me as one of those who were really impressed by the Thor movie and Thor's representation in general. That could have been a disaster. Credit to Hemsworth for being able to pull off lines that could easily have sounded cheesy and eye roll inducing. When he spoke in his formal asgard speak, he really carried himself well. You buy what he's selling: A character from another world and realm --Not an actor spouting off lines that sound ridiculous.

But then yes, they sucker punch him for laughs..

 

[C. Lee]

I definitely won't argue against this. I know and you know how awesome Cap is but there really wasn't a moment where Tony sees it. That's my problem. Sure Tony says he lives up to the legend. But where in the movie does Tony finally see it and go "so he IS more than just a product of a bottle"

Most likely when he sees Cap leaping around on the damaged helicarrier 30,000 feet in the air without a jetpack to save him if he falls (that takes courage)....and standing his post with multiple guys shooting automatic weapons at him without an armored suit on like Tony (again, that takes a lot of courage).

 

[Spider-Vader]

I think they portrayed my favorite Avenger, Cap perfectly. Though I wish they would have had more 'Man out of time' scenes, but I guess that's what Cap 2 is for.

As for my close second favorite Avenger, Hawkeye. I really loved what they done with him; sure I could have done without the sub-plot of Loki controlling him. But he was a total badass in the final battle & was just sarcastic enough for me to not complain about a lack of Hawkeye jokes.

 

[chiefchirpa]

That's a great alternate interpretation. I applaud you for picking up on something that is subtle enough to miss. What would have been a great way to end this scenario would be Cap asking IM "Are you clear?" and once he got the OK, have Cap "cut loose" so-to-speak. And jump down and take care of the soldier in seconds then rescue Stark per my earlier post. Which would underscore that Cap was just holding back because he needed to guard the lever. Would have been a great way to display Cap's abilities and show Tony that he's more than just a product of a bottle.

Instead however, Iron Man takes out the baddie and saves the day --again.

I love IM, don't get me wrong. The thing is, Tony needed convincing that Cap lived up to the legend. IMO, there wasn't anything Cap did that really should have wowed him at the point where he says "A Living Legend that actually lives up to the Legend" If there was, I missed it.

I know Whedon has mentioned that Cap takes the biggest hit in the editing room. Maybe the full version will have other scenes where this is displayed a bit more.

Actually I will hate that part. Avengers is not about "the Invincible Cap & friends". It's about each members going to the best of their ability, organized by Cap.

 

[zentype]

Most likely when he sees Cap leaping around on the damaged helicarrier 30,000 feet in the air without a jetpack to save him if he falls (that takes courage)....and standing his post with multiple guys shooting automatic weapons at him without an armored suit on like Tony (again, that takes a lot of courage).

If we assume the answer is there if we look for it (and don't chalk it up to an oversight by Whedon) then yes that would really be the only thing. Even so, I believe there would have been much cooler ways to make this impression. Call it a bit too subtle if you will. It's there, but not really a moment I would call a true "wow" for Tony.

I would have preferred something much more jaw dropping. But when the rest of the movie is so good, it's easy to spot 'deficiencies' (only a fanboy would call it this of course)

You do make a good point that courage is the thing that really defines him (that statement about Olympians measuring courage against Captain America comes to mind)

 

[hafizbat]

I definitely won't argue against this. I know and you know how awesome Cap is but there really wasn't a moment where Tony sees it. That's my problem. Sure Tony says he lives up to the legend. But where in the movie does Tony finally see it and go "so he IS more than just a product of a bottle"

Tony's beef with Cap: Nothing special about him but what the bottle gave him.

Cap's beef with Tony: Selfish and would never lay down his life to save others.

At the end of the movie, Cap realizes he was wrong: IM nearly dies saving Manhattan from the Nuke.

But Tony doesn't see where he was wrong about Cap. Sure they shake hands at the end and we assume this. But there's no THE moment. He just says he lives up to the legend --moments after he insulted Cap not long before, and then *rescues* him. What changed Tony's mind? (Remember this was before the big battle, where Cap finally proved his mettle --but still needed help from Thor after being shot. Wow, now that I think about it, Cap needed helping quite a bit)

If you go up and read my post just a bit earlier, that small change would have been all that's needed to be done and bam! Tony is a believer. Instead we see Tony walk him through what to do, tells Cap he isn't wrong when Steve says "it's powered by some sort of electricity" (surprisingly Tony doesn't take this opportunity to make Cap feel stupid here) Then rescues him after Cap pulls the lever. Not the best way to make IM change his mind about Steve being little more than a lab experiment.

Again, this movie was great (I'd give it an 8.5-9). Been a Whedon fan since FF and love that he is a fellow fanboy. But it doesn't mean it's perfect and couldn't have been improved with a little tweaking. I would just expect a fanboy wouldn't have dropped the ball there like he did when it came to that one small part.

I get what you're saying, but 2 points

1. I don't think it's necessary to have one instance where Tony sees Cap proving he's the legend, I think Whedon actively avoided spoon feeding like that. I think you have to look at the big picture, Cap being in that whole ordeal in the first place and helping Tony, who is in the suit, no doubt noticed how brave and selfless Cap is.

2. I think Stark acknowledging Cap as the legend is less about the physical and more about the "truly special" part of Captain America. Stark already acknowledges the physical when he says "everything special about you came from a bottle" What Stark was looking for is something beyond the physical, something that made Captain America a legend, and I think after Coulson's death, when Stark is clearly having a hard time, Cap is there, firm and steady. THAT'S what pushed Stark to finally believing that yes, this man truly is special and a leader and someone he could follow into battle.

 

[Shadowlord X]

I get what you're saying, but 2 points

1. I don't think it's necessary to have one instance where Tony sees Cap proving he's the legend, I think Whedon actively avoided spoon feeding like that. I think you have to look at the big picture, Cap being in that whole ordeal in the first place and helping Tony, who is in the suit, no doubt noticed how brave and selfless Cap is.

2. I think Stark acknowledging Cap as the legend is less about the physical and more about the "truly special" part of Captain America. Stark already acknowledges the physical when he says "everything special about you came from a bottle" What Stark was looking for is something beyond the physical, something that made Captain America a legend, and I think after Coulson's death, when Stark is clearly having a hard time, Cap is there, firm and steady. THAT'S what pushed Stark to finally believing that yes, this man truly is special and a leader and someone he could follow into battle.

Well said.

 

[zentype]

I get what you're saying, but 2 points

1. I don't think it's necessary to have one instance where Tony sees Cap proving he's the legend, I think Whedon actively avoided spoon feeding like that. I think you have to look at the big picture, Cap being in that whole ordeal in the first place and helping Tony, who is in the suit, no doubt noticed how brave and selfless Cap is.

2. I think Stark acknowledging Cap as the legend is less about the physical and more about the "truly special" part of Captain America. Stark already acknowledges the physical when he says "everything special about you came from a bottle" What Stark was looking for is something beyond the physical, something that made Captain America a legend, and I think after Coulson's death, when Stark is clearly having a hard time, Cap is there, firm and steady. THAT'S what pushed Stark to finally believing that yes, this man truly is special and a leader and someone he could follow into battle.

I agree with what Shadowlord X said about your post. Well said. Especially about Whedon avoiding spoon feeding. If I imagine the scene between Tony and Steve about Coulson taking place in panel of a comic book, its meaning wouldn't have been lost on me. I just didn't expect this from a movie and missed its point (makes me revile that reviewer who claimed Joss Whedon is the next Michael Bay even more)

If there are things that Joss is good at, it's subtleties. I would have loved to see them collaborating while they planned how to make each hero shine and hear this sort of discussion take place.

Congratulations, you've convinced me This is what I love about forums: open, honest discussion (especially if it doesn't resort to trolling and flaming.. Reminds me of when this place was just called "Spidermanhype" Those were the days) --You get different viewpoints that can enhance your own point of view.

 

[The Guard]

I feel like we saw quite a few physical feats from Cap in the movie. Would have liked to have seen him take on The Hulk with Thor, but...someone had to be involved in that boring electrical relay plot point.

 

[Nokio]

My problem was that Cap wasn't special enough. I think he was written well but action wise so so again. Even in Cap America I wasn't impressed by anything he did. I think they needed a better fight choreographer for cap. As someone said he seemed no different then Hawkeye or BW. I got no sense that this man had increased strength speed and agility. Never did i hear he survived frozen in ice because of the Serum. The movie was great but Cap's powers were so so.

 

[Nokio]

I'm a fan of all the Avengers --even Shield's Hill (mainly due to it being Cobie Smulders playing her role)

But in terms of which one I want to see kick butt, that would have to be the lower powered class: Cap and Hawkeye.

I thought Hawkeye showed how badass he was.

Cap while very good could have been better. Mainly where he and IM were working on restoring the damaged turbine that Hawkeye took out (again Hawkeye=badass) Remember IM isn't really convinced about Cap's skills yet. Having IM fix the turbine AND then rescue Cap afterwards didn't sit well with me.

What would have worked better would have been after Iron Man get's ejected from the turbine, have him begin to tumble and be rescued by Cap (by jumping after him and utilize his acrobatic skills to find footing, grab something to hang onto and pull him up, etc.)

Instead the super soldier spends 5 minutes spraying bullets trying to take out one soldier. And then is hanging on for dear life until he can pull the lever.

Blonsky in TIH was much more impressive as a super soldier (acrobatics, agility, etc.) Cap here was good but could have been much better.

--When something is so good, the flaws really stand out. Which is the case with this (awesome) movie. Cap spending 5 minutes with an automatic rifle trying to take out a normal human and then needing to be rescued shouldn't be enough to change IM's opinion that "The Living Legend lives up to the Legend."

Agreed on almost everything. Cap has never been depicted as bullet proof. I've got no problem with him ducking bullets and exchanging gunfire. If Cap can't get to the guy cause the guy is firing on him it's believable. I agree it went on a lil to long. i thought that their was more then one guy during that gun battle. I only saw it once and you tend to miss things.

 

[Gianakin_]

My favorite Avenger was IM and they portrayed him perfectly. In fact, Stark here was what he should've been in IM2.

 

[MessiahDecoy123]

The people dissatisfied with Caps many scenes need to complain about it to Cyclop fans.

They'll laugh in your face.