Does Marvel have a problem with their villains?

[StormC]

It's funny you say that because I just got done watching the Earth's Mightiest Heroes episode where a sleazy politician is revealed to be Red Skull. It could have been a cool twist, but I liked that Alexander Pierce was a homegrown modern era person who legitimately believed in fascism, instead of a time-displaced Nazi. It might have taken away from the film's messages a bit.

 

[Lantern Venom]

Red Skull probably would have been set to return if it wasn't for Hugo Weaving not wanting to come back to the role. Obviously they could easily recast it given the nature of the character's appearance, but it might have given them pause at least.

I'm hopeful that Skull eventually returns in some manner, perhaps leading a team of supervillains. If the MCU has a villain issue, it's that it hasn't been able to fully exploit some of its marquee villains. Weaving became an issue with RS, Galactus and Dr. Doom are held hostage by Fox, and they shied away from Mandarin. All of these situations have kept movie audiences from really seeing the depth of Marvel's villainous characters.

Before the movie came out and I saw it, I honestly thought Robert Redford was Red Skull in TWS.

I was wondering the same thing, and I'm disappointed that after 2 more Cap films, we still haven't heard anything from Skull.

 

[Dasher10]

Actually, I've never felt that Marvel has had any more of a villain problem in the MCU than any other studio. It seems that all the studios have that "problem".

I also feel that the MCU has left the door open for some of the villains to reappear. Red Skull certainly has the capacity to come back. Abomination's broken neck could be healed by now, AFAWK, and he could be a prisoner in the Raft. Ultron could be somewhere biding his time and getting stronger. That random, unregistered flight that Black Widow mentioned in AOU could have some significance. In the comics, Ultron always had a contingency plan just in case he was defeated. Of course, Zemo could engineer a jail break out of the Raft or Ross could make a deal with him. Ross has always been a character to make a deal with the "devil". I would love to see a take on the "Thunderbolts" or the MOE in the MCU.

Honestly, since Blizzard and Mister Hyde were introduced in Agents of SHIELD, I wouldn't be surprised if Zemo is going to assemble the Thunderbolts.

I know that Spider-Man: Homecoming is going to have Vulture as the main antagonist but Joystick can appear as a villain in the cold open and Shocker can absolutely appear as a side-villain. Abe Jenkins should be the bad guy in Ant-Man and The Wasp considering that the only alternatives are Whirlwind and Egghead and neither of them are anywhere near as cool as Mach.

On the TV side, I can see Fixer and Taskmaster appear in the fourth season of Agents of SHIELD and Moonstone in Jessica Jones Season 2. If certain series are renewed, I can easily see Atlas in Luke Cage: Season 2 and Bullseye in Daredevil Season 3.

Songbird should be the one to stage the jailbreak at The Raft and Jolt should join the team after they save her from a supervillain in the first few episodes.

The only characters missing are Crossbones who's currently dead (we'll see if the Reality, Time or Soul gems resurrect him), Ghost who will probably appear in Iron Man 4, Scorpion who will hopefully be in the second MCU Spider-Man film, Man-Thing who would eat up the budget of a TV series too much to use and Juggernaut who Marvel don't own the live-action rights to. Scorpion and Ghost probably won't join the team right off the bat but they'll presumably join down the line in Phase 4. Crossbones is dependent on him being resurrected but he was never a MAJOR part of the team.

This is literally what Marvel should do with their villains. I can see Thunderbolts as a dark counterpart to Agents of SHIELD that would actually give the villains screentime and tell HYDRA's side of the story as they conquer save the world from threats even greater than them and go into battle with other evil organizations like AIM, The Hand and HYDRA loyalists who are angry at the organization for betraying its principles of racial separatism who now call themselves RAID.

And the villain for Season 1 needs to be Synthia Schmidt. She'd be the granddaughter of the Red Skull while Zemo's grandfather would be revealed to have led HYDRA after the Skull's alleged demise until he was killed by Nick Fury Sr. in the 1960s in South America. Zemo's motivations would be complex where he both wants to honor his grandfather while also rejecting a lot of the values that he stood for that Schmidt still holds on to. Zemo's face would get burned off during the jailbreak and he dons a mask for most of the season whenever he isn't at base. Schmidt's face also gets burned off at the end of the season to ram home the parallels between them. Ultimately what separates them is that Zemo wants to atone for his family and organization's past and use HYDRA as a force for good and wants to rule the world to improve it for everyone (despite wanting to be a brutal dictator) while Schmidt is a reactionary who preys upon people's fears and insecurity to recvruit for RAID and wants to create a world that would be an absolute hell for anyone who isn't white and straight.

And come Phase 5, Norman Osborn would take over the Thunderbolts and turn them into the Avengers setting up the Under Siege, Siege and War of the Marvels storylines (and Death of Gwen Stacy for Spider-Man).

 

[2002SpideyFan]

Well, the problem with MCU villains is the same as with some of the storylines that MCU adapts from the comics: they don't appreciate it enough. MCU sees their villains through a one-dimensional prism. They think that villains in comic book movies have to be orthodox, generic, and trivial as possible, which is the problem, since Christopher Nolan taught us with his Batman trilogy that comic book villains can be deep, interesting, well-written characters. Unfortunately, MCU doesn't want to learn that. They treat their villains as a cheap toilet paper, and this guy knows it very well.

 

[JtheDreamer]

Actually, I've never felt that Marvel has had any more of a villain problem in the MCU than any other studio. It seems that all the studios have that "problem".

I also feel that the MCU has left the door open for some of the villains to reappear. Red Skull certainly has the capacity to come back. Abomination's broken neck could be healed by now, AFAWK, and he could be a prisoner in the Raft. Ultron could be somewhere biding his time and getting stronger. That random, unregistered flight that Black Widow mentioned in AOU could have some significance. In the comics, Ultron always had a contingency plan just in case he was defeated. Of course, Zemo could engineer a jail break out of the Raft or Ross could make a deal with him. Ross has always been a character to make a deal with the "devil". I would love to see a take on the "Thunderbolts" or the MOE in the MCU.

Wait - when was it established that Abom had his beck broken? The movie (which I love btw) didn't really show anything other than Hulk choked him out.

 

[2002SpideyFan]

I actually think he is depicted as quite brilliant in The Dark Knight with his ability to trace mob money via irradiated dollar bills, to take forensics off a shattered bullet shell in a brick wall, even simple things like apparently having memorized 90% of the GCPD by face and name that he can spot them from a distance.

Don't forget the scene at the end of The Dark Knight when he takes single-handedly an entire swat team while saving hostages from snipers and gunfire. You need to have at least some tactical and logical skills in order to be able to do something as complicated as this.

 

[Adhesive Boy]

Don't forget the scene at the end of The Dark Knight when he takes single-handedly an entire swat team while saving hostages from snipers and gunfire. You need to have at least some tactical and logical skills in order to be able to do something as complicated as this.

Given that the Gotham police aren't even able to see a connection between a school bus sized hole in a bank and a school bus 20 yards away that's covered in dust and debris, slowly crawling away, I don't think we can assume that the swat guys are competent either.

 

[2002SpideyFan]

Given that the Gotham police aren't even able to see a connection between a school bus sized hole in a bank and a school bus 20 yards away that's covered in dust and debris, slowly crawling away, I don't think we can assume that the swat guys are competent either.

Gotham's police forces weren't that clever in the comics either, which is the reason why one guy in a bat-suit is more successful with crime-fighting than an entire team of trained cops.

 

[JtheDreamer]

I think it's pretty clear Marvel Studios steered clear of having a faithful Mandarin in order to make sure they don't do anything to upset the Chinese GA or inciting the Chinese government to not allow the movie to be screened there.

It's the nature of the beast now with where they want to sell tickets.

 

[A Necessary Evil]

I think it's pretty clear Marvel Studios steered clear of having a faithful Mandarin in order to make sure they don't do anything to upset the Chinese GA or inciting the Chinese government to not allow the movie to be screened there.

It's the nature of the beast now with where they want to sell tickets.

Also, comic Mandarin sucks, so there's that.

 

[The Overlord]

I'm hopeful that Skull eventually returns in some manner, perhaps leading a team of supervillains. If the MCU has a villain issue, it's that it hasn't been able to fully exploit some of its marquee villains. Weaving became an issue with RS, Galactus and Dr. Doom are held hostage by Fox, and they shied away from Mandarin. All of these situations have kept movie audiences from really seeing the depth of Marvel's villainous characters.



I was wondering the same thing, and I'm disappointed that after 2 more Cap films, we still haven't heard anything from Skull.

I think the problem is MCU Red Skull is just not that interesting, comic book Red Skull is a racist, hate filled psychopath who blames the world for his own crappy childhood. In the movie, he is a generic power mad villain who wants power because First Avenger needed someone for Cap to fight, nothing about MCU Red Skull is compelling, I have no desire to see his generic self ever again.

Also the Mandarin is not a very goo character, he is a different character every time he appears (Fraction and Knauf wrote him completely differently) and he is dated in the worst way possible, a Chinese villain named the Mandarin doesn't really work in this day and age. Plus what his motives, why is he Tony Stark's arch nemesis, why does he hate Tony Stark why does want to take over the world or cause WW3 or do whatever his objective is? Ra's Al Ghul is a villain in the similar vein, who works so much better. I thought Killian was kinda of a lame villain, but comic book Mandarin is one of those villains that would hard to translate to screen (each animation adaption of the Mandarin turns him into a different guy). No way would Marvel put pandering to a few fanboys over access to the world's largest film market.

Here is an interesting question, Purple Man was kinda of nothing villain who become one of the best MCU villains, there are any other B-list or
C-list villains who could become a major villain in the MCU? I wonder if Cottonmouth will end up as one of the greatest MCU villains.

 

[GENERAL RAAM582]

I think Homecoming will be a major factor in deciding whether or not Marvel has a villain problem.

Up till now, the argument we've heard in defense was always "they don't have their best villains at their disposal". Now they have (arguably) their best rogues gallery back, so there's no excuse for Homecoming's villain to be "meh".

Absolutely. Now they have characters like Green Goblin, Doc Ock (which have already been two of CBM's greats), Venom, and more. I don't think Fantastic Four is too far away either, so they should have Dr. Doom and Galactus in the coming years. Marvel has had a decent excuse for their poor villains, but are going to have to really impress us now.

 

[Oscorp]

Loki, Red Skull, Ultron, Baron Zemo are all great comic book villains.

But yeah, I also feel that Homecoming will have the chance to prove a turning point for Marvel Studios in the villain department (even though I think Loki and Baron Zemo were great).

 

[Doctor Octopus]

I hope Homecoming is turning point because Spider-Man have great villains and they need to be done right.

 

[dax]

Wait - when was it established that Abom had his beck broken? The movie (which I love btw) didn't really show anything other than Hulk choked him out.

It showed Hulk putting his foot on Abomination's neck and we hear a crackling sound which indicates that Hulk snapped his neck.

 

[BarryAllen]

Here is an interesting question, Purple Man was kinda of nothing villain who become one of the best MCU villains, there are any other B-list or
C-list villains who could become a major villain in the MCU? I wonder if Cottonmouth will end up as one of the greatest MCU villains.

I'm thinking as the MCU goes on, we'll be seeing a lot of the lesser villains get revamped and become major.

But yeah, I can't believe I live in a time where Cornell Cottonmouth and Black Mariah have a shot at being the best MCU villains. It's so crazy yet awesome to think about.

 

[2002SpideyFan]

Also the Mandarin is not a very goo character

Agree. He's not a good character... He's a great character.

he is a different character every time he appears (Fraction and Knauf wrote him completely differently)

Wrong. He's always been the same character with same traits. A Chinese supremacist individualist who despises governmental control and authorities. The methods which he uses to achieve his goals is the only thing that differentiates in each new incarnation of him.

Fraction and Knauf duo wrote Mandarin differently because that's what writers do - they write the characters from their subjective point of view. But tell me, Fraction and Knauf Mandarin wasn't Chinese? He didn't have his ten iconic rings? He wasn't megalomaniac who's obsessed with east philosophies?

Saying that the character is bad just because every new writer has a different spin on him should mean that Tony Stark is also a terrible character (well, he kinda is, after 2012 at least.), since current Tony Stark is nothing like the likable do-gooder from Kurt Busiek's run, or complex, conflicted Stark from Denny O'Neil's run.

and he is dated in the worst way possible

No worse than Luke Cage or Shang Chi, whose biological father is Fu Manchu (yeah, that's legit. Marvel owns Fu Manchu and they made him Chi's dad.)

Here, Mandarin in early 90's. Find me something outdated about him, I'll give you a cookie.

Physically strong, intelligent Chinese man, who follows principles of honor, who doesn't want to follow any political authority, means something bad?

a Chinese villain named the Mandarin doesn't really work in this day and age.

A black superhero who got his powers in jail, whose last name is CAGE, somehow works.

Plus what his motives, why is he Tony Stark's arch nemesis, why does he hate Tony Stark why does want to take over the world or cause WW3 or do whatever his objective is?

He never said that he hates Tony Stark. He actually showed a great respect for Iron Man, calling him a brave warrior.

1. He is his arch-nemesis because he and Iron Man are Yin and Yang in both literal and conceptual way.

2. Mandarin was raised with a cynical believe that he is entitled to take the world under his authority and paradigm. He believes that world has to be ruled not by politics and corrupt ideals, but by wisdom and severity.

Ra's Al Ghul is a villain in the similar vein

Ra's Al Ghul is a delusional terrorist who believes that he is not a villain, that he is doing the right thing, that he serves to justice. Mandarin doesn't pretend that he's a good guy.

who works so much better.

They both work well in their own way.

I thought Killian was kinda

Unapologetically terrible and dull villain.

but comic book Mandarin is one of those villains that would hard to translate to screen

Watch Infernal Affairs. Andy Lau's character in that movie acts almost exactly like John Byrne's Mandarin. That's how you do the Mandarin. As a subtle, calculating, unforeseeable evildoer.

Also, after Marvel did Guardians of the Galaxy, I doubt that argument such as "DUH, IT WOULDN'T WARK IN DA MOVIE, YA STUPID FUNBOYS" is relevant. If a talking raccoon can work in a movie, I'm pretty sure so can the Mandarin.

(each animation adaption of the Mandarin turns him into a different guy)

There's been only three cartoon series featuring the Mandarin. Classic 66 motion comic cartoon that contained of poorly animated comic book strips. 90's cartoon, in which he was green, but had same attitude and powers, and Armored Adventured cartoon, which changed not just the Mandarin, but every single character in it. Also, in each of those cartoons he's been a Chinese man who uses ten power rings.

No way would Marvel put pandering to a few fanboys over access to the world's largest film market.

Don't you think it's hypocritical to call us, fans of the Iron Man, a fanboys, while addressing that on a site called "superherohype.com"?

You defend Marvel, but, please, don't say as if Marvel did that for any other reasons other than to make more money on Chinese market.

 

[Flint Marko]

 

[NotNickFury]

Wouldn't say a problem, per se, but I do believe that the issue with the majority of the MCU villains is that they aren't memorable. Some of that has to do with the performance. The standouts I still find are Tom Hiddleston, Vincent D'Onofrio, and David Tennant. Possibly James Spader as Ultron and Hugo Weaving as Red Skull. Had they not delivered, who knows if Loki, Fisk, and Kilgrave would be as remembered as they are.

And even outside of Marvel Studios, you get examples like Heath Ledger, Terrance Stamp, or Tom Hardy as Bane. People can go back and forth about the portrayal, but a lot of time, talk about the characters goes to the performance itself. Not to say that the the MCU villains have had bad performances, but I'd be hard pressed to say I remember anything about the antagonists outside of the aforementioned.

 

[Doctor Octopus]

2002Spideyfan is biggest Mandarin fan ever lol.

 

[2002SpideyFan]

2002Spideyfan is biggest Mandarin fan ever lol.

I am.

I'm also the biggest fanboy of first two Raimi's Spider-Man films, which I will defend to my grave. Judging by your profile-picture, you share appreciation for those films with me.

 

[DrCosmic]

Does the MCU have villains who are lackluster compared to their comics counterparts: Yes, yes they do.

Is this a problem for them? No, no it is not.

 

[Doctor Octopus]

I am.

I'm also the biggest fanboy of first two Raimi's Spider-Man films, which I will defend to my grave. Judging by your profile-picture, you share appreciation for those films with me.

I am big fan of Raimi movies. They best Spider-Man movies. I think Homecoming will be as great as them. Maybe better.

 

[OcStat]

The new Spider-Man movie will add an interesting layer to this discussion. The Spider-Man franchise has some of the worst and one of, if not the, best villains adapted.

But I guess that is the case for the other long running franchises. Superman, Batman. X-Men has probably fared better on average with their villains but considering most of the time it's Magneto I guess there's some discrepancy there.

But when Homecoming comes out, it will instantly be compared to Spider-Man 2, and if the villain holds up against that, it'd be a awesome for the MCU.

...and that collage is great.

 

[Doctor Octopus]

The new Spider-Man movie will add an interesting layer to this discussion. The Spider-Man franchise has some of the worst and one of, if not the, best villains adapted.

Worst you mean Amazing Spider-Man villains and best you mean Dr Octopus right lol?