Does Marvel have a problem with their villains? - Part 1

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This is a continuation thread, the old thread is [split]501627[/split]

 

[Raiden]

It seems to me that just about every MCU movie we have people complaining about the portrayal of villains. From Red Skull to Malekith to Ronan, not to mention "Mandarin", there is no shortage of villains that seemed to be either half-cooked or one-dimensional, and they almost always died before they could be developed later on. On the other hand, WB is about to release Suicide Squad, which is a movie that features some of their most well-known villains, like Joker, Quinn, Deadshot, etc.

As a Marvel fan, I want the heroes to get the spotlight, but I also don't want to see the villains continuously shortchanged in MCU. Therefore, my question is, do you guys think this is a problem? And if so, should Marvel try to address this issue by mandating better writing for the antagonists? Or is this really a non-issue that only haters complained about?

 

[kguillou]

I was watching that Invincible Ironman animated movie yesterday, the one that came out in '07 and while the movie itself starts off good and kind of loses focus, I couldn't help but wonder what it could of been like if we got an actual Mandarin film. I was so disappointed with how they treated him in IM3. I guess, maybe Marvel wanted to save the introduction of magic into the MCU for Dr Strange perhaps.

 

[MichaelChen]

I was watching that Invincible Ironman animated movie yesterday, the one that came out in '07 and while the movie itself starts off good and kind of loses focus, I couldn't help but wonder what it could of been like if we got an actual Mandarin film. I was so disappointed with how they treated him in IM3. I guess, maybe Marvel wanted to save the introduction of magic into the MCU for Dr Strange perhaps.

No. While comic Mandarin does know some magic, mainly chi-mysticism, he isn't fundamentally about magic. He was an aristocrat who spent every bit of his wealth training himself in science and martial arts, basically making himself into a super-soldier. His journey isn't a wizard's journey. Instead it is about social darwinism, aristocratic elitism, and Ayn Rand thinking. Making him a magical ghost completely misses the point of him.

 

[scarlet-witch]

Mandarin was the worst part of IM3 because he turned out to be an INO and he was superfluous to the plot. Fortunately for Marvel Studios, they hit on all cylinders of the rest of the film and the end product was still quite good.

I don't think Darren Cross added anything to the MCU, outside of Corey Stoll's considerable acting skills. His story was a replica of Obadian Stane's story in IM instead of being something original.

I didn't like Iron Man 3, but I didn't see the Mandarin twist comign, so I appreciated that. Darren was another Stane, but I didn't mind seeing that on a smaller level. I think it worked for Ant-Man. He's not a memorable villain but he's not bad by any means.

Come to think of it, the only villains I've really disliked in a Marvel movie were the ones in Spiderman 3.

 

[Bayne]

It seems to me that just about every MCU movie we have people complaining about the portrayal of villains. From Red Skull to Malekith to Ronan, not to mention "Mandarin", there is no shortage of villains that seemed to be either half-cooked or one-dimensional, and they almost always died before they could be developed later on. On the other hand, WB is about to release Suicide Squad, which is a movie that features some of their most well-known villains, like Joker, Quinn, Deadshot, etc.

As a Marvel fan, I want the heroes to get the spotlight, but I also don't want to see the villains continuously shortchanged in MCU. Therefore, my question is, do you guys think this is a problem? And if so, should Marvel try to address this issue by mandating better writing for the antagonists? Or is this really a non-issue that only haters complained about?

I agree Marvel needs to work on their villains a bit more, but I can't take seriously anyone who compares the MCU and DCEU and then says only Marvel has a villain problem. DC's best villain so far is Zod, who I liked, but he didn't hold a candle to Loki or Zemo or Pierce. BVS had no good villains (they weren't terrible, either - just bland, just like most marvel villains are accused of) and Suicide Squad's villain, who again I liked more or less, still had almost no motivation and almost no agency or activity, either. She basically just stood around being evil.

Meanwhile, the villain is the one big question mark hanging over Wonder Woman (whose very entertaining trailer completely avoids the question) and Justice League is apparently going for a flunky villain named 'Steppenwolf' whose BVS deleted scene makes him look like a rejected concept for a video game monster...

 

[NotNickFury]

Okay, who actually said only Marvel?

 

[Set]

For fun, I sometimes look at favorite comics and wonder how they could be adapted to the MCU, and when pondering the Thunderbolts, it really hit home how many decent options for a MCU Thunderbolts team have ended up dead.

Iron Man has killed most of his villains, other than Justin Hammer and Trevor Whathisname, neither of who have any power (or even money, now). Thor's got Loki, but he's way too big for the room as a Thunderbolt. Captain America's villains are dead, except for Zemo, who is both available and an actual Thunderbolt.

An 'MCU Thunderbolts' team including Crossbones, Whiplash, Yellowjacket, etc. could perhaps have been fun, but that ship's sailed.

Now that Spider-Man's available, the Beetle could eventually be an option (or, more plausibly, someone using a flight suit adapted from the Vulture).

Songbird's maybe waiting on the Black Panther movie, which *might* re-introduce Klaw, and the sonic weapon concept.

The Fixer's just a smart tech dude, and could be retconned into the MCU as some former Hydra/SHIELD techie who may have invented stuff like those gloves Brock was wearing in the beginning of Civil War, or could be tied to the character providing Daredevil with special suits in the Daredevil show (ooh, tie-in between the Netflix shows and the movies?), or even be tied into a 'Tinkerer' character introduced as a source of villain-tech in Spider-Man: Homecoming.

Atlas could be connected to someone misusing Pym particles, already introduced in Ant-Man (and sought after by that smarmy dude Pym punched in the flashback in that movie, who could have smuggled some out of the disaster at Pym/Crosstech.)

And then there's Moonstone, who seems like a good choice for a Carol Danvers/Captain Marvel villain...

 

[Bayne]

Okay, who actually said only Marvel?

When someone writes a post that starts out comparing Marvel and DC specifically, goes out of their way to talk about the many half-baked marvel villains then glosses over DCs track record to only mention that DC is launching some of its most popular villains, the obvious implication is that DC is doing alright (or at least not notably bad) in the villain dept. and Marvel isn't.

Whether that implication was intended or not, is another matter of course.

 

[Kahran Ramsus]

I wouldn't worry about Thunderbolts. All of the best members are either still alive or haven't been used, including the entire original team.

 

[Doctor Octopus]

Who was on original team?

 

[TheVileOne]

Original Thunderbolts team:

Citizen V = Baron Zemo
Mach 1 = The Beetle
Songbird = Screaming Mimi
Techno = The Fixer
Moonstone = Meteorite
Atlas = Goliath

Other notable members in the early days of the comic included Hawkeye, Jolt and Charcoal.

 

[Kahran Ramsus]

Really early in the case of Jolt. She joined in like the 3rd or 4th issue. I can't remember exactly.

 

[TheVileOne]

Yeah it was in the comic's first year.

 

[Doctor Octopus]

Original Thunderbolts team:

Citizen V = Baron Zemo
Mach 1 = The Beetle
Songbird = Screaming Mimi
Techno = The Fixer
Moonstone = Meteorite
Atlas = Goliath

Other notable members in the early days of the comic included Hawkeye, Jolt and Charcoal.

Thanks Thevileone. I forget Beetle was part of original one lol.

 

[DOBSON10]

This is definitely not just a Marvel problem. If I really look back on it, most comic book movies have this problem. There has really only been a handful or so really standout villains in all these movies. Marvel actually has a pretty decent track record overall, they haven't had alot of great ones but they haven't had many truly bad ones. Really just Trevor Slattery, if you even want to call him a villain. That was awful. Justin Hammer was pretty stupid too, but it wasn't THAT bad. Overall they're doing OK.

 

[dax]

Captain America's villains are dead, except for Zemo, who is both available and an actual Thunderbolt.

Red Skull isn't dead. The tesseract merely transported him to another realm so there's a possibility that he will return. Winter Soldier isn't dead either but he's not really evil since he was being mind-controlled by HYDRA and he froze himself in a cryogenic tube so that noone can control him again like Zemo did. Lastly, Dr. Zola is a "ghost in a machine" due to him placing his brain inside a computer so that he could be, as Zola himself puts it, "more alive".

 

[metaphysician]

Yes, people really need to distinguish the varying shades of "dead". Red Skull and Zola especially are both "dead" in a manner where they can come back the moment anybody wants them back.

 

[Doctor Octopus]

This is definitely not just a Marvel problem. If I really look back on it, most comic book movies have this problem. There has really only been a handful or so really standout villains in all these movies. Marvel actually has a pretty decent track record overall, they haven't had alot of great ones but they haven't had many truly bad ones. Really just Trevor Slattery, if you even want to call him a villain. That was awful. Justin Hammer was pretty stupid too, but it wasn't THAT bad. Overall they're doing OK.

Trevor Slattery not even villain lol. Aldrich Killian was real villain.

 

[metaphysician]

Well, he was a willing participant in a terrorist conspiracy. Sure, just as an actor playing a role in what are effectively propaganda films, but still. He wasn't an innocent victim.

 

[Doctor Octopus]

Trevor thought it was all make believe not real.

 

[metaphysician]

That was not how I recall the movie. He said that the people "the Mandarin" killed in the video were actors and SFX, that is *not* the same thing as believing the Ten Rings organization was imaginary, and not an actual criminal conspiracy engaged in actual criminal activity.

 

[MbJ]

After a somewhat forgettable Zemo in Civil War and the totally lame Kaecilius in Doctor Strange (seriously, way to waste Mads Mikkelsen, idiots!), I think we've had a good run this year Ego and Vulture.

Hopefully that momentum continues with Hela and Erik Killmonger.

 

[Grootster]

No, I enjoy a lot of their villains, and I don't really understand why so many people think they're weak. Sure, a couple of them might be; but most of them have great personalities and a couple are even pretty deep characters. There's only so much you can do with villains in movies, and I think Marvel's are fine. I'd put them on par with most of the Star Wars villains, including Vader in A New Hope.

 

[NotNickFury]

MCU villains on par with the likes of Vader? Not even Jar-Jar could find that funny. That and the Star Wars films don't exactly have an expansive array of villains.