Does Marvel have a problem with their villains?

[Batsfan1]

You just named the memorable villains of four entirely deifferent series. The memorable villain of the mcu is Hiddleston's Loki. And also D'onofrio's Wilson Fisk. Not every single villain is gonna be an absolute pop culture hit. That's how it is in the comics as well

For the Burton/Schumacher movies: Jack Nicholson's Joker, Jim Carrey's The Riddler, Michelle Pfiefer's Catwoman, Danny Devito's Penguin and Arnold's Mr. Freeze. A few might not be memorable in the way that some like, but they are memorable.
X-Men: Ian Mckellen's Magneto, Brian Cox's William Stryker, even Famke Jansen's Phoenix and Kevin Bacon's Sebastian Shaw.
TDKT: Ra's, Bane, Joker.
Superman: TS's Zod, Gene Hackman's Lex Luthor.
To go for a different kind of memorable in a different medium: Michael Rosenbaum's Lex, John Glover's Lionel, James Marsters' Brainiac. In some circles MR's Lex is even considered the definitive version of the character.

 

[NotSoLongAgo]

For the Burton/Schumacher movies: Jack Nicholson's Joker, Jim Carrey's The Riddler, Michelle Pfiefer's Catwoman, Danny Devito's Penguin and Arnold's Mr. Freeze. A few might not be memorable in the way that some like, but they are memorable.
X-Men: Ian Mckellen's Magneto, Brian Cox's William Stryker, even Famke Jansen's Phoenix and Kevin Bacon's Sebastian Shaw.
TDKT: Ra's, Bane, Joker.
Superman: TS's Zod, Gene Hackman's Lex Luthor.
To go for a different kind of memorable in a different medium: Michael Rosenbaum's Lex, John Glover's Lionel, James Marsters' Brainiac. In some circles MR's Lex is even considered the definitive version of the character.

Who are we talking about here? Fanboys, or the larger audience?

 

[Batsfan1]

Who are we talking about here? Fanboys, or the larger audience?

I'd say that at least more than half of these are memorable to the general audience.

 

[redlion2]

]Because the Jokers, Zods, and Goldfinger are memorable. No one's quoting Red Skull, no one's dressing up as the Mandarin for halloween, and no one's calling other villains Ronan rip offs. \ People think MCU villains don't have good motivation, aren't memorable, aren't a threat, and that's why people think they have a villain problem.

The rules do apply to other franchises. One of the major complaints of Craig's Bond run is he doesn't have a villain or henchmen as memorable as Goldfinger or Jaws. Every Star Trek villain is compared to Khan. People don't like that Die Hard doesn't have a good villain not named Gruber. If you're memorable you get a free pass on motivation and threat level, no matter the franchise. The difference between the MCU and every other franchise is the MCU puts out two films every year and the others don't.[/QUOTE]

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[redlion2]

Guess what, we've had ELEVEN Marvel films since 2008, and you've given me TWO truly memorable villains (and one's on a Netflix TV show). So yes, not every villain will be truly memorable true enough. But Marvel has managed 1 out of 11 films, which is just pathetic. If it keeps happening over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over again, a trend starts to emerge. They consider their villains to be an afterthought it seems.

And the fact that they keep casting great actors for these roles and then not using them to their full potential makes it all the more annoying.

How is Marvel's situation any more dire than Fox's? In seven X-men or X-men related films, we've had only ONE memorable villain. With the exception of Magneto, all the rest of the X-men's rogues that have appeared on film have truly been nothing more than afterthoughts. This is so frustrating because the X-men have arguably one of the best rogues gallery in comics. Only now are they beginning to show more ambition when it comes to villainy and that ironically, is a result of the success of the MCU. At least Marvel has attempted to expand beyond Loki, with varying degrees of success more or less.

It's too early to tell what type of success WB will have going forward with it's newly shared universe and Sony's new rebooted Spiderman franchise didn't get one villain right, so much so, that they had to reboot the "reboot" and ask for Marvel's help.

 

[redlion2]

Because the Jokers, Zods, and Goldfinger are memorable. No one's quoting Red Skull, no one's dressing up as the Mandarin for halloween, and no one's calling other villains Ronan rip offs. \ People think MCU villains don't have good motivation, aren't memorable, aren't a threat, and that's why people think they have a villain problem.

Maybe not so much Red Skull or Mandarin but I would definitely put Loki and Kingpin in that list and they are every bit as memorable as any of the villains you've named there. Imo, Marvel has been one of the best at giving it's villains background and motivation and in some cases, giving their villains some humanity and complexity beyond the cliche reasons of evil just because.

 

[Oscorp]

To me, a villain can be great for different reasons. I can love a villain because of his origin and motivation, because of his philosophy, because of the action he provides, because of his presence, and so on. A villain can have one of two of these things and be a great villain to me.

I honestly feel that presence is one of the key aspects for me to like a villain. What he makes me feel when he's on screen. Joker is a great written villain in The Dark Knight, but I think the biggest reason for why I like him so much in the film is because he steals the show everytime he's on screen.

To make it very short, Doc Ock in SM2 basically wants to rebuild his invention. That's a pretty uninteresting and bland motivation if you think about it like that. But his presence in SM2, as well as the action he provides, makes him one of the most iconic CBM villains.

Magneto is one of the villains who, in my opinion, has everything. His origin, motivation and philosophy is great comic book movie material. He also has a presence that makes him really interesting. To me, he's definitely up there with Joker.


What makes me like Loki a lot is that not only is he understandable, sympathetic and well written overall, but he also has an awesome presence. Every scene he's in, he steals the show.

Compare that to Malekith. I think, the way it's explained in the movie, I can understand his motivation. It's fine. But he has absolutely zero presence. He's boring, simply put. Everytime he's on screen in Thor:TDW I just wish it to cut away to something else (not really though, because the entire film is boring).

Same goes for Killian, even though I don't really understand his motivation fully. What essentially makes him a bad villain for me is that he doesn't make me feel anything. He's just another "villain of the week". When I see him, I don't think "Wow, there's our villain!".

The same can be said for most of Marvel Studios' villains. They're just there. They can have understandable motivations and origins and all that, but when they're on screen they're just there. I don't feel interested in them, even though I know their comic book versions are awesome.

I have to say though that I really like Winter Soldier and Ultron. Winter Soldier doesn't even say much but when you see him, he feels like a really cool villain. Ultron isn't very popular here, I know, but I really enjoyed him. And a big reason for that is his presence. The presence doesn't need to be super threatening, like Bane for example, but just special overall. Ultron felt unique and likeable, and that makes him a good film villain to me.

I think that looking forward, Marvel Studios' need to create film villains that not only have understandable motivations and origins, but equally or perhaps even more importantly also have great presence.

 

[Godzillasaurus]

In the case of Ultron, Yellowjacket, Winter Soldier, and Loki? Nope, not at all

 

[NotSoLongAgo]

Winter Soldier is another good one. Continuing Bucky's story with cap is interesting by itself. I think the villains I have the biggest problem with are whiplash, mandarin and malekith. And they're the villains of the three weakest movies Marvel has offered up.

 

[Godzillasaurus]

Oh yea forgot about him! Disappointing for me, as he is in my top 3 MCU villains

 

[Mike Murdock]

Yeah, Maleketh's problem is he has no personality whatsoever. It doesn't help that he's speaking Elvish the entire time. To me, Ronan was the same way until he interacted with the good guys. Then he at least had some presence (particularly the scene on Nowhere). But I can't go too far. I almost felt like Ultron had too much personality.

I wonder how people would have felt about Loki if it was just the first Thor movie. To me, it's prolonged screetime that has allowed his personality to flourish. His first appearance was OK, but not great.

 

[Flint Marko]

The Kingpin is up there as one of the best villains in comic book cinema history, as is Loki. They are definitely memorable. The rest all have varying degrees of effectiveness.

 

[NotSoLongAgo]

The Kingpin is up there as one of the best villains in comic book cinema history, as is Loki. They are definitely memorable.

Definitely. And we also have Winter Soldier and Alexander Pierce. Zemo is coming up so I can only hope he'll be awesome. And the big bad Thanos is finally coming up as well so I'm ready for that. Possibly Magus in IW. The ancient one, Baron Mordo. I'm sure Norman Osborn is coming to the mcu soon, along with spidey's other awesome rogues. I don't think they're gonna have a problem.

 

[Flint Marko]

Definitely. And we also have Winter Soldier and Alexander Pierce. Zemo is coming up so I can only hope he'll be awesome. And the big bad Thanos is finally coming up as well so I'm ready for that. Possibly Magus in IW. The ancient one, Baron Mordo. I'm sure Norman Osborn is coming to the mcu soon, along with spidey's other awesome rogues. I don't think they're gonna have a problem.

If they do all of these characters justice, then yes, the villain complaints should go away.
What's funny is that Marvel has seemingly been very respondent to criticism in the past. They've learned from their mistakes in certain areas, but it seems that their approach to villains is one thing they don't care to change any time soon. Their formula is working, so why bother?

 

[Oscorp]

Yeah, Maleketh's problem is he has no personality whatsoever. It doesn't help that he's speaking Elvish the entire time. To me, Ronan was the same way until he interacted with the good guys. Then he at least had some presence (particularly the scene on Nowhere). But I can't go too far. I almost felt like Ultron had too much personality.

I wonder how people would have felt about Loki if it was just the first Thor movie. To me, it's prolonged screetime that has allowed his personality to flourish. His first appearance was OK, but not great.

Yeah, the lack of personality is in my opinion his biggest flaw. That, and that he doesn't really feel all that threatening at all. And I agree about Ronan, I didn't feel much when he was on screen either. To me, it was "all talk" when it comes to him. Everyone talked about how terrifying he was, but I just didn't feel it. The only time I actually felt something from him was in his "What are you doing!?" scene and when he threatened Thanos.

Haha, I understand what you mean about Ultron. But to me, I loved that he had plenty of personality. Especially since he's also a robot. He felt refreshing.

I honestly think Loki was at his best in the first Thor scene. It was easy to sympathise with him, without it feeling forced like the villains in the Spider-Man films. He was the best character in The Dark World, but suffered a bit because of an overall badly written and directed film. He was a fine villain in The Avengers, but in my opinion still not as good as in the first Thor.

But yeah, he's definitely gained from being featured in several films. Magneto is another prime example of that. I think that's also what will make The Winter Soldier one of the best villains in the MCU.

 

[NotSoLongAgo]

If they do all of these characters justice, then yes, the villain complaints should go away.
What's funny is that Marvel has seemingly been very respondent to criticism in the past. They've learned from their mistakes in certain areas, but it seems that their approach to villains is one thing they don't care to change any time soon. Their formula is working, so why bother?

Well the russos made TWS work, so I can only hope they can make Zemo be relevant. Spidey kinda needs to be that good because he's had too many mediocre villains and stories so far. Plus Norman has so much potential as a villain for not just spidey but the avengers, so I hope they take advantage of that. As for strange, I feel like that's Feige's baby and he's gonna make sure that every aspect is damn good since it seems to be his favorite property. And they've built up Thanos so much that I really, really hope that Infinity War pays off and he is a beast of a villain.

 

[Flint Marko]

Well the russos made TWS work, so I can only they can make Zemo be relevant. Spidey kinda needs to be that good because he's had too many mediocre villains and stories so far. Plus Norman has so much potential as a villain for not just spidey but the avengers, so I hope they take advantage of that. As for strange, I feel like that's Feige's baby and he's gonna make sure that every aspect is damn good since it seems to be his favorite property. And they've built up Thanos so much that I really, really hope that Infinity War pays off and he is a beast of a villain.

What you say about Dr. Strange being Fiege's baby has me very encouraged because he's been one of my favorite Marvel characters since I was young. Everything about that movie will be memorable, including Baron Mordo.
And yeah, they have to make Thanos work. The build up has been going on for so long that he can't be a letdown in any capacity.

 

[Oscorp]

The Russos having a big hand in the coming MCU is very comforting to me. I think they'll deliver some great villains.

 

[Loki882]

I kind of doubt count Winter Soldier because he's not really a true "villain" imo. And continuing on with the "Marvel TV does villains better," Kyle MacLachlan's Mr. Hyde on AOS was great as well. And I'd never thought that I'd use the word "great" to describe Mr. Hyde.

 

[Oscorp]

I kind of doubt count Winter Soldier because he's not really a true "villain" imo. And continuing on with the "Marvel TV does villains better," Kyle MacLachlan's Mr. Hyde on AOS was great as well. And I'd never thought that I'd use the word "great" to describe Mr. Hyde.

A little bit off topic, but just a quick question: How is Agents of Shield overall? The little I've seen of early trailers, it looks a little cheap and like a typical CSI style TV-show.

 

[Mike Murdock]

^ It started somewhat weak and like that, but it improved dramatically as the show became more serialized and created a greater sense of urgency. In addition, while the characters started out as fairly one-note, they slowly built a lot of personality into them so that you can just root for the characters if you want to. It does a good job of playing with part of the Marvel universe you probably won't see onscreen (clearly the smaller stuff beneath the Avengers) while also exploring some nice little tie-ins that expand the movie mythology (I think the end of Season one made The Winter Soldier a better viewing experience).

I kind of doubt count Winter Soldier because he's not really a true "villain" imo. And continuing on with the "Marvel TV does villains better," Kyle MacLachlan's Mr. Hyde on AOS was great as well. And I'd never thought that I'd use the word "great" to describe Mr. Hyde.

To be fair, most of the greatness of the character came from MacLachlan chewing the scenery.

But television always has great potential to do more just because of more development. Even Grant Ward is developing into a worthwhile villain. Daniel Whitehall was creepy as well. John Garrett, on the other hand, was a bit weaker due to the need to keep his villain status a secret and his fairly quick decent into insanity, but he's still in the middle of the pack, imo. And all this is on Agents of SHIELD, which many think is very watered down.

In addition, Killgrave has a lot of potential and I expect David Tennant to knock it out of the park.

 

[Greens]

A little bit off topic, but just a quick question: How is Agents of Shield overall? The little I've seen of early trailers, it looks a little cheap and like a typical CSI style TV-show.

Agents of SHIELD started out fairly generic, but it turned into something that's pretty great.

 

[Oscorp]

Ah, great to hear. I might give it a chance once I have time to get invested in a TV-series.

 

[redlion2]

Yeah, Maleketh's problem is he has no personality whatsoever. It doesn't help that he's speaking Elvish the entire time. To me, Ronan was the same way until he interacted with the good guys. Then he at least had some presence (particularly the scene on Nowhere). But I can't go too far. I almost felt like Ultron had too much personality.

Ronan was one of those characters that I wished Marvel hadn't killed off. He had real potential and if he had been tweeked just a little, I think he could have been considered one of Marvel's better villains. I loved the fact that they approached him with a political/theological/genetics fanaticism that hadn't been seen before in a Marvel villain. Lee Pace played him with just the right amount of arrogance and he definitely had presence whenever he was onscreen. He turned out to be more than just Thanos' errand boy and had his own ambition for power and not just motivated by genetic "coding" If he had been given more screen time alone to shed more light on his inner demons and the fight with Drax, extended in order to show more of his personal "badassness", Ronan could have been a memorable villain. Loved that scene when he twisted/broke the Other's neck right in front of Thanos like he didn't give a ****.

 

[Boom]

Alexander Pierce is probably my favorite of the MCU's villains. He wasn't a scene-chewing or visually striking villain by any means, but his goals hit on some very real social paranoias and fears, and Redford did a wonderful job selling it. More than any other villain, I got the impression that he was genuinely convinced that what he was doing was the right thing (the only thing) to do.

I look forward to seeing what the Russos do with Zemo.