Does Race Really Matter?

[Baramos]

The fact that I know people identify more with people of their own race? This is news? Why is knowing that fact make a person racist?

Or am I a racist because I noticed that white people will support sports which are dominated by people of other races whereas black sports fans will not? Actually noticing that makes me a racist? Or is it that we aren't supposed to say it out loud and pretend it's not true?

I think it's more that you just say this like it's a fact when it's just your opinion based on what you think you see. Unless you have a bunch of statistics to back this up?

I don't even know what sport only has white people in it anymore to even test this "theory" that you seem to think is irrefutable.

Basically when you make blanket statements about an entire race as fact...it is racist to do that, yeah.

Ths is what I'm talking about. I would be just as upset about casting a white guy to play Luke Cage as I would be a black dude to play Superman. If there were no white characters and Cage was my favorite, I would rather them create an all new white character than to give the role of a black character to some white actor because 'he is the best fit for the part.' That's BS. And vice versa.

Neither of those characters would have their races altered because they are essential to the characters. Neither of those would work as the other so it's not even up for grabs, really.

Electro is more where you're going to see that kind of thing happening because he's an ancillary character for the most part--he just a villain of the week with an interesting power to fight Spider-Man. Nothing in his backstory requires him to be any particular race. And there are plenty of characters whose backstory is malleable in that respect because it simply doesn't have much to do with the character's race.

I dunno, people who complain about altering characters' races in comic books (in what seems like a kneejerk fashion--I can count the changes to an established character's race in movies and comics one one hand) remind me of people who complain about versions of Shakespeare adapted to contemporary times or which change characters' races/sexes. About the only time a character HAS to be a certain race is in say, Othello where race is essential to the plot. Otherwise the stories and characters are strong enough to alter the surface elements as much as you want and still be compelling.

EDIT: Here's another way to put it--if they're even talking about changing a character's race it's probably not essential to the character. And more often than not the character has a pretty vague/flat background anyway. Like it's not surprising that they would alter the race of Kingpin or Electro--there's nothing particularly compelling about either of them, if you ask me. So their backstory is malleable and can probably only be improved.

 

[Human Torch]

I think it's more that you just say this like it's a fact when it's just your opinion based on what you think you see. Unless you have a bunch of statistics to back this up?

I don't even know what sport only has white people in it anymore to even test this "theory" that you seem to think is irrefutable.

Basically when you make blanket statements about an entire race as fact...it is racist to do that, yeah.



Neither of those characters would have their races altered because they are essential to the characters. Neither of those would work as the other so it's not even up for grabs, really.

Electro is more where you're going to see that kind of thing happening because he's an ancillary character for the most part--he just a villain of the week with an interesting power to fight Spider-Man. Nothing in his backstory requires him to be any particular race. And there are plenty of characters whose backstory is malleable in that respect because it simply doesn't have much to do with the character's race.

I dunno, people who complain about altering characters' races in comic books (in what seems like a kneejerk fashion--I can count the changes to an established character's race in movies and comics one one hand) remind me of people who complain about versions of Shakespeare adapted to contemporary times or which change characters' races/sexes. About the only time a character HAS to be a certain race is in say, Othello where race is essential to the plot. Otherwise the stories and characters are strong enough to alter the surface elements as much as you want and still be compelling.

EDIT: Here's another way to put it--if they're even talking about changing a character's race it's probably not essential to the character. And more often than not the character has a pretty vague/flat background anyway. Like it's not surprising that they would alter the race of Kingpin or Electro--there's nothing particularly compelling about either of them, if you ask me. So their backstory is malleable and can probably only be improved.

I admit,I detest setting Shakespeare in a modern context.

 

[Baramos]

Well, that's a whole 'nother thing, but it can be related to comic books or adaptations--there have been a zillion versions of Shakespeare set in the proper setting. There are wonderful adaptations of all the big ones. So to differentiate themselves they do them in new settings, time periods, etc. or change the characters' races or sexes or whatever.

Like I think a good portion of the thought process behind making Nick Fury black for example was that it simply makes the same-old same-old mildly interesting again.

 

[Holiday]

Race will ALWAYS matter. It's not racism to say this, just common sense. If a comic book character was drawn white skinned - that character is white skinned - and vice versa.

They are fictional characters, not real people. They will be re-interpreted again and again and again. It's not a big deal.

 

[az824]

Have to throw in my two cents here:

Well, like most people have said it really only matters for the big characters. However, my only exception would be Hispanics, since we (I'm Mexican) can look just as white as Americans, Canadians or Europeans. I'm not saying all Hispanics but there is a large number who are very white in complexion but may not be considered white because of their nationality. And I think some Hispanics do work for certain roles like WW and Superman, although mostly the former. Lynda Carter for example is half-Mexican and Brandon Routh could easily pass as Hispanic. WW and Sups call for black hair and blue eyes, the latter with finer structures, and that doesn't have to be Caucasian. Superman is an alien for Pete's sake but he has an established look, which should be respected, hence Routh wearing blue contacts and Cavill dying his hair black.

As for smaller characters I've never cared for race change like electro or kingpin or fury.

 

[Spider‐Man]

Neither of those characters would have their races altered because they are essential to the characters. Neither of those would work as the other so it's not even up for grabs, really.

How is 'whiteness' essential to Superman's character? How is 'blackness' essential to Cage's? How would it change either of their characters if you changed their race?

Electro is more where you're going to see that kind of thing happening because he's an ancillary character for the most part--he just a villain of the week with an interesting power to fight Spider-Man. Nothing in his backstory requires him to be any particular race. And there are plenty of characters whose backstory is malleable in that respect because it simply doesn't have much to do with the character's race.

I dunno, people who complain about altering characters' races in comic books (in what seems like a kneejerk fashion--I can count the changes to an established character's race in movies and comics one one hand) remind me of people who complain about versions of Shakespeare adapted to contemporary times or which change characters' races/sexes. About the only time a character HAS to be a certain race is in say, Othello where race is essential to the plot. Otherwise the stories and characters are strong enough to alter the surface elements as much as you want and still be compelling.

EDIT: Here's another way to put it--if they're even talking about changing a character's race it's probably not essential to the character. And more often than not the character has a pretty vague/flat background anyway. Like it's not surprising that they would alter the race of Kingpin or Electro--there's nothing particularly compelling about either of them, if you ask me. So their backstory is malleable and can probably only be improved.

So what if they did a big-screen version of Othello and made him Chinese? It would still be about differences in race. Would that upset anyone?

 

[JeetKuneDo]

I think it's more that you just say this like it's a fact when it's just your opinion based on what you think you see. Unless you have a bunch of statistics to back this up?

I don't even know what sport only has white people in it anymore to even test this "theory" that you seem to think is irrefutable.

Basically when you make blanket statements about an entire race as fact...it is racist to do that, yeah.

NASCAR and Hockey. You see any black fans in the stands? Am I making that up? Tell me your theory for why that is.

Now check out the sports dominated by non-whites. White people still support those sports. The NFL is by far the most popular sport among whites and it is only 31% white.

There is no correlation between the percentage of white athletes and the willingness of white sports fans to support the sport. Whites have a 69% favorable view of baseball (60% white), 50% favorable view of basketball (20% white), 51% favorable view of hockey (97% white), and a 51% favorable view of NASCAR (100% white?). Race is not a factor for whites.

Basically the idea that whites are racist in the US is greatly exaggerated. This country is the only one I can think of to elect a leader who is a different race than the majority after all. They don't do that in Europe, do they?

White people in the US are called racists with blanket statements all the time (we would have heard that this week if Obama were to lose...which won't happen)....I had no idea that was wrong. Or is it only wrong when you don't direct it at whites?

 

[TheBat447]

They are fictional characters, not real people. They will be re-interpreted again and again and again. It's not a big deal.

I get - and, most importantly, RESPECT - what you are saying but I still believe that characters - fiction or non faction - need to be played as close to accurate as possible.

I'm not against black actors getting work - not even close, I just feel that certain characters have to remain untouched (or modifed slightly as their legend ages)

As for Batman, would a black/African American family REALLY have been accepted like the Waynes were? (in those times) - much less be Billionaires.

 

[metaphysician]

How is 'whiteness' essential to Superman's character? How is 'blackness' essential to Cage's? How would it change either of their characters if you changed their race?

Because it *is* essential to Superman's character that he be an ordinary, everyday Kansas farm boy. . . and there aren't a lot of black Kansas farmboys.

Similarly, its essential to Luke Cage's character that he come straight out of a blaxploitation movie, which would look really really silly if he were a white guy.

 

[az824]

Although I agree that superman should be white it has NOTHING to do with him living in Kansas, since he wasn't born there.

 

[Human Torch]

I get - and, most importantly, RESPECT - what you are saying but I still believe that characters - fiction or non faction - need to be played as close to accurate as possible.

.

 

[cryptic name]

Nick Fury's apperance was changed in the comics and now is widely accepted in favor over the original(mostly thanks to the movies). However could characters like Batman(Bruce Wayne) or Wonder Woman(Diana) have a "race change" and it be accepted like Fury's? Would it really matter or take away from the character if in a movie/tv show Bruce, Diana, or any other major DC player was portrayed by a minority actor or actress?

I think (for the examples given) Diana's race is kind of nebulous to begin with, so there's room for actresses of different racial backgrounds to make the role their own. With Batman, I think the fact that the character is so well known and is so ingrained as white that it would be hard to change his race. However, that doesn't close the door completely. I think, for instance, Idris Elba would make a kickass Batman.

More generally speaking, it all depends on the character and how their race informs that. Luke Cage needs to be black, for example. But a lot of characters don't need to be a specific race and in those cases the best actor for the job should be selected. There is the matter of fidelity to the source material to consider; like how Andrew Garfield looks exactly like Peter Parker come to life and he was great in the role, but Donald Glover could possibly have done just as fine a job and been an equally good fit for Peter.

 

[Holiday]

I get - and, most importantly, RESPECT - what you are saying but I still believe that characters - fiction or non faction - need to be played as close to accurate as possible.

I'm not against black actors getting work - not even close, I just feel that certain characters have to remain untouched (or modifed slightly as their legend ages)

As for Batman, would a black/African American family REALLY have been accepted like the Waynes were? (in those times) - much less be Billionaires.

We can agree, at least partly, because I'm not in favor of changing race of most iconic characters such as Bruce Wayne, Clark Kent, Tony Stark, etc.. Those characters have an iconic look that I don't think should have a significant change. I agree too, wouldn't make much sense either if the Wayne family was black, at least at this point in time.

Now in the cases of Nick Fury, Kingpin, Electro... I don't mind them being cast as a different race. Sure, they were drawn up white in the comics but that in most cases, was a time where most characters were drawn up white. We live in a different now, I think our comic book movies should reflect that.

 

[Changeling]

I want a white Batman for the reboot and JL but I would have been okay with a black Superman if there were no better options than a black man

 

[TheBat447]

We can agree, at least partly, because I'm not in favor of changing race of most iconic characters such as Bruce Wayne, Clark Kent, Tony Stark, etc.. Those characters have an iconic look that I don't think should have a significant change. I agree too, wouldn't make much sense either if the Wayne family was black, at least at this point in time.

Now in the cases of Nick Fury, Kingpin, Electro... I don't mind them being cast as a different race. Sure, they were drawn up white in the comics but that in most cases, was a time where most characters were drawn up white. We live in a different now, I think our comic book movies should reflect that.

We might as well end this thread here. This post pretty much sums it all up. Despite my argument earlier, I agree with you 100%.

 

[TheBat447]

I want a white Batman for the reboot and JL but I would have been okay with a black Superman if there were no better options than a black man

...... Sorry t:

 

[metaphysician]

Although I agree that superman should be white it has NOTHING to do with him living in Kansas, since he wasn't born there.

Um, yes, it does. From practically the day he was born, he was raised in Kansas, grew up in Kansas, and thought of himself as a farm boy from Kansas. If it weren't for developing superhuman powers, he could have gone his entire life not thinking he was anything but a Kansas farm boy.

He can't do that if looks like an extra from 'Zulu.'

 

[Holiday]

We might as well end this thread here. This post pretty much sums it all up. Despite my argument earlier, I agree with you 100%.

Good deal.

 

[BestGirl]

I want a white Batman for the reboot and JL but I would have been okay with a black Superman if there were no better options than a black man

Would you also be cool with an Asian Superman?

 

[Baramos]

Luke Cage as white would be ridiculous. It'd be like making B.A. in The A-Team white or something.

Superman is more arguable but I still feel like him being white is essential to the background of the character.

Othello would maybe work with a different race, true (you could do it with any group considered the "other" by the majority and have it in many settings), but I still think the "taboo" of miscegany is strong in parts of the U.S. that at least for an American version with American actors having it be a white woman falling in love with an Asian man would be like ignoring the elephant in the room. It's sad that we're basically as racist in the West against people with dark skin as we were in the 17th century but you could basically leave Othello unchanged and it is still pretty darn applicable to our times.

ANYWAY, I was mostly coming down on the side of arguing that it's okay to go ahead and change many characters' races because most of the time they are interchangeable within the characters' backgrounds so let's just agree to disagree on the specifics of Luke Cage, Superman, and Othello.

 

[terry78]

Luke Cage, Black Panther, and the like is a flawed argument, as their race has everything to do with their creation. Yes, I know how that sounds, but it's no less true.

 

[Majik1387]

I'm sure people would be just as pissed if Static Shock was changed to white. Every single (stupid) point made about Donald Glover for Spidey can be made about a white actor in said role.

 

[az824]

Um, yes, it does. From practically the day he was born, he was raised in Kansas, grew up in Kansas, and thought of himself as a farm boy from Kansas. If it weren't for developing superhuman powers, he could have gone his entire life not thinking he was anything but a Kansas farm boy.

He can't do that if looks like an extra from 'Zulu.'

So Jor-El could've sent him to a black family in a small town in Georgia. However it was more about the late 20s, since a black superhero would not have been accepted during that period and that's why he was of white complexion (not necessarily our def of white) in a white home.

 

[zeptron]

Changing the race of minor characters is fine. But for the iconic characters, I'd like them to resemble their comic counterparts as much as possible. I've seen people whine about Laurence Fishburne playing Perry White in Man Of Steel or how certain cartoons changed a minor characters race. These characters aren't iconic nor that important. Perry White will probably only have about five minutes of screentime in Man Of Steel. The only ones that care so much about a minor character's race being changed are uptight comic nerds.

I've often come across people saying that there needs to be more black characters in movies(superhero movies in particular) because black people can't and won't identify with the story if there aren't characters that look like them. And I'm sick and tired of those kinds of comments. I'm black and not once did it ever cross my mind that I couldn't enjoy a movie because the character/s was/were not black. It still doesn't phase me to see predominately white casts in films like the Avengers and Dark Knight Rises. I'd much prefer to see Superman, Batman, Wonder Woman, Spider-man(Peter Parker), Captain America, etc. portrayed the way they were created.

If a Fantastic Four reboot were made and they made Mr Fantastic or Human Torch black just because they aren't any black members and so they could add diversity, I wouldn't be pleased. It's such a stupid concept and I can't stand it when people say that changing races randomly of iconic characters is necessary because lack of diversity drives away those in the minority. Maybe a small percentage but this is not so with everyone.

 

[terry78]

^True, but would vice versa also be true about white nerds not being about to identify with black characters?