Dreamworks/Paramount's Ghost In The Shell - Part 1

[Monochron]

Kung Fu was made when? Also technically not actually ripping of any American culture. Counting either "The Last Samurai" or "Dances with Wolves" makes it sound like you haven't watched them. Stranger in a Strange land, kind of the point. Unless you are suggesting you can't make those type of films, which is of course well... yeah.

No, it has simply become a problem because hollywood seems to think the only way to tell that story is with a white person at the center of it all.

And for what it is worth, The Last Samurai. A top 10 box office film in Japan.[/B]

It's not worth as much as you might think. Remember that the Japanese experience and the Japanese-American experience is not interchangeable.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

No, it has simply become a problem because hollywood seems to think the only way to tell that story is with a white person at the center of it all.

Except I watched "The New World". So no, it isn't.

It's not worth as much as you might think. Remember that the Japanese experience and the Japanese-American experience is not interchangeable.

Which is why complaining about something like Kung Fu or Ghost in a Shell being made in America makes zero sense.

 

[Sithborg]

Kung Fu was made when? Also technically not actually ripping of any American culture. Counting either "The Last Samurai" or "Dances with Wolves" makes it sound like you haven't watched them. Stranger in a Strange land, kind of the point. Unless you are suggesting you can't make those type of films, which is of course well... yeah.

And for what it is worth, The Last Samurai. A top 10 box office film in Japan.

Not that there isn't racism in Hollywood. There is plenty. The US is heavily racist as our last election showed. But the inherent problem is more with who is behind the camera, not necessarily who is in front of it. Because the latter changes when the former does.

And as an additional counterpoint: casting a Chinese woman for a Japanese role REALLY pissed of the Japanese.

In the end, my view is the context. Ghost in the Shell is being Americanized, much as how the various adaptions other countries have done have not exactly kept the ethnicities of Western stories. Should we be upset that the Magnificent 7 are not 7 Samurai?

 

[Monochron]

Except I watched "The New World". So no, it isn't.

Okay so I watched the trailer for it just now. It looks like another white savior story like Dances with Wolves and The Last Samurai.

Which is why complaining about something like Kung Fu or Ghost in a Shell being made in America makes zero sense.

Quite the opposite.

 

[Monochron]

And as an additional counterpoint: casting a Chinese woman for a Japanese role REALLY pissed of the Japanese.

In the end, my view is the context. Ghost in the Shell is being Americanized, much as how the various adaptions other countries have done have not exactly kept the ethnicities of Western stories. Should we be upset that the Magnificent 7 are not 7 Samurai?

The whole problem stems from the assumption that "americanizing" something means white main character by default. The newest Magnificent 7 at least attempts to represent America as it is today.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

Okay so I watched the trailer for it just now. It looks like another white savior story like Dances with Wolves and The Last Samurai.

Yeah, well I have actually seen the movie. So I know it isn't.

Quite the opposite.

You don't get to decide when Japanese culture matters and when it doesn't. Because either it does apply or it doesn't. These aren't Japanese American properties. These are Japanese properties.

 

[DeadPresident]

The whole problem stems from the assumption that "americanizing" something means white main character by default. The newest Magnificent 7 at least attempts to represent America as it is today.

I didn't realize America today was 95% male .

America is 72% white, what should the default be in your opinion?

If you want to talk about how "America is today" then out of 10 characters in a movie 7 should be white, 1-2 should be Hispanic, 0-1 should be black, and 0-1 should be Asian - and half should be male and half female. That is statistically what America is.

And if 72% of a population is X then it logically makes sense that X are usually the main characters.

 

[DorkyFresh]

I feel like, it depends on the story. So as an Asian-American, I would like to see 'Full Metal', 'Attack on Titan', 'Cowboy Bebop', and 'Lupin III' with a diverse cast. Meanwhile, I prefer to see Akira with a mostly Japanese/Asian cast.

It depends on how the characters are created. If the creator of Cowboy Bebop purposely made 'Spike Spiegel' the official name of the lead, both in Japanese katakana and English, then that role can go out to anyone who's white, Asian, whatever.

Excuse me sir, logic and reasonability aren't allowed on these boards. Please pack up and leave

I feel pretty similar though. Deciding the race of an anime character when casting depends on the circumstance. In the case of Major Motoko Kusanagi I fall somewhere in the grey area. I'm also Asian American so I'd be lying if I didn't want to see an Asian play her. There's nothing that would feel 'wrong' if she were played by an Asian. It would certainly speak volumes for diversity in Hollywood to put an Asian woman in the lead of a blockbuster movie.

But there's also nothing really preventing her from being played by an actress of non-Asian decent. Yes, her name is Motoko Kusanagi but that doesn't mean her cybernetic body looks like her natural body. I think the director or production team of the original film mentioned how they created the world with the theory that Sector 9 would choose a body type that is fairly common in case her body or a part needs to be replaced and also to cut costs. And that body type could look like anyone. So even though I would've liked to have seen an Asian actress play Motoko Kusanagi, I don't really have a problem with a Caucasian, Hispanic, or Black actress playing her as long as she has the basic physical features required to look the part. I also understand that this movie possibly wouldn't have the budget or the backing that it has without a starlette like Scarlett to give the project more "legitimacy" (although Valerian would say otherwise) but currently there are no Asian women that regularly land major roles in Hollywood films.

However, my problem with this casting lies beyond race. I just feel like Scarlett is uninspired casting. To give credit where it's due, she could play just about any heroine thrown at her with a good amount of believability. She's fairly talented and when she's really inspired she can pull out some memorable performances. But she's such obvious and vanilla casting (no pun intended) it doesn't excite me that she's playing the Major. With Scarlett as an action heroine I pretty much know what I'm gonna get.

That being said, I'll still see this movie and keep as open a mind as possible. After all, despite the controversy surrounding the race of the Major, this movie will reintroduce Takeshi Kitano to American audiences. But it's also kinda hard to stay open minded when they're basically recreating the best action set pieces of the original movie.

 

[Monochron]

You don't get to decide when Japanese culture matters and when it doesn't. Because either it does apply or it doesn't. These aren't Japanese American properties. These are Japanese properties.

In the context of an American film based on Japanese culture I would side with Japanese-Americans. Japan is a homogeneous country so Japanese people don't deal with the erasure Japanese-Americans suffer in the US when something like this happens. This of course extends to other cultures as well.

 

[Monochron]

I didn't realize America today was 95% male .

America is 72% white, what should the default be in your opinion?

If you want to talk about how "America is today" then out of 10 characters in a movie 7 should be white, 1-2 should be Hispanic, 0-1 should be black, and 0-1 should be Asian - and half should be male and half female. That is statistically what America is.

And if 72% of a population is X then it logically makes sense that X are usually the main characters.

Yes which is why I included the word "attempts".

Also there is no default. America is a multicultural, multiethnic, and multiracial country.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

In the context of an American film based on Japanese culture I would side with Japanese-Americans. Japan is a homogeneous country so Japanese people don't deal with the erasure Japanese-Americans suffer in the US when something like this happens. This of course extends to other cultures as well.

Where you one of the ones arguing Danny should be Asian on Iron Fist? Because this seems like the same logic.

In the context of an American film adaptation, they can do whatever they like. There is no "side" to take. That is the entire point. That is the problem when you separate the Japanese culture from the Japanese American culture.

 

[Monochron]

Where you one of the ones arguing Danny should be Asian on Iron Fist? Because this seems like the same logic.

In the context of an American film adaptation, they can do whatever they like. There is no "side" to take. That is the entire point. That is the problem when you separate the Japanese culture from the Japanese American culture.

Yes, and I still stand by that.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

Yes which is why I included the word "attempts".

Also there is no default. America is a multicultural, multiethnic, and multiracial country.

This does apply to almost every country on earth. Yes, there are white people and black people in Japan. Unless you think there needs to be a specific percentage to quality.

I don't disagree with your general argument. The problem is how you are arguing it.

 

[DeadPresident]

Yes which is why I included the word "attempts".

Also there is no default. America is a multicultural, multiethnic, and multiracial country.

No, there is a default, numbers actually matter - although I understand it's emotionally distressing for you to have to entertain that concept. By just using "multiethnic" you want to try and create some statistical equality that really doesn't exist.

The default for America is white, again, highly unpopular at the moment but facts are facts.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

Yes, and I still stand by that.

Which of course means you were willing to ignore that part of American culture because you wanted to. And that is why your argument falls down. You are picking and choosing.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

No, there is a default, numbers actually matter - although I understand it's emotionally distressing for you to have to entertain that concept. By just using "multiethnic" you want to try and create some statistical equality that really doesn't exist.

The default for America is white, again, highly unpopular at the moment but facts are facts.

The default for America is not white. Because well, the NBA and NFL would look a lot different then.

 

[Monochron]

Which of course means you were willing to ignore that part of American culture because you wanted to. And that is why your argument falls down. You are picking and choosing.

What part of American culture are you referring to?

 

[DarthSkywalker]

What part of American culture are you referring to?

The part where this young Hispanic boy knew that Danny Rand, the white guy, was Iron Fist.

One major problem with the culture argument in the US is it leaves white Americans without any identity at all. Everything they have either belongs to someone else, or can be changed because it doesn't really count anyways.

 

[Monochron]

The part where this young Hispanic boy knew that Danny Rand, the white guy, was Iron Fist.

Please elaborate on this becuase I honestly don't know what you are trying to say.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

Please elaborate on this becuase I honestly don't know what you are trying to say.

I was born and raised in America. My culture involved the character of Danny Rand. When you decide you can just change him because he is white, you are crapping on my culture.

 

[LoganGambit87]

Yes, and I still stand by that.

an asian danny rand is highly stereotypical basically saying an asian can only become a super hero by being a martial artist

 

[Monochron]

I was born and raised in America. My culture involved the character of Danny Rand. When you decide you can just change him because he is white, you are crapping on my culture.

So making Danny Rand Asian-American somehow diminishes the character in your eyes?

 

[DarthSkywalker]

So making Danny Rand Asian-American somehow diminishes the character in your eyes?

No, the way you treat cultures you have no time for diminishes the concept in general.

 

[Guts]

I thought this thread is supposed to be about a haunted shell.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

I thought this thread is supposed to be about a haunted shell.

The shell is the wrong race apparently.