DTL Season 6-Week 1 (Set 1)

[Aristotle]

the entire point of Walter's actions is that she now CAN keep up with him, mentally at least. And for a telepath, that's all she needs.

And again, Walter can't give her that much speed. He just can't. He doesn't have it.

And Lady Flash can only manipulate the speed of someone she can see

All she has to do is cast a massive blast of speed-sapping lightning. It's pretty simple. It's just a big uni-directional explosion.

She doesn't have to react fast enough. Because of their proximity, Spidey will know as soon as they decide to attack him or her (MAYBE Engineer, though she might not be close enough). So, all she has to do is send an electronic signal to the laser pods on her shoulders, which then can immediately fire off a dozen or more laser beams over a wide area. Like I said, the whole point of their tactics is to beat the speed they KNEW they would be facing with strategy.

They can't think fast enough.

By the way, what Khel has basically downplayed is the idea that all Lady Flash has to do to eliminate Engineer's tech and nanomines is saturate the city with lightning and fry it. We already know Engineer is vulnerable to EMP and electric overload, because she's powerless post-World's End for that exact reason.

 

[Aristotle]

Yeah, see, Flash knows the average Flash thinks faster than most telepaths can, so the idea that he wouldn't amp her most important weapon up, when it's so very easy for him to do so, is nuts.

Flash literally can't lend her that much speed, because he doesn't have that much to give. Waverider is at lightspeed, and no Flash has ever reached lightspeed with dying a la Barry Allen. He can't catch her up to Waverider, and he can't get her even close without basically negating his own speed.

No EMPs, no lightning

You're making a hell of a big bluster about a character you don't think matters. And sure, you can argue that she should be removed from the League due to the page time rule, and we can talk about that elsewhere. But she wasn't disqualified before this match, so she's in. And all I really need from her for this match is lightning and speed manipulation. Those are two things she has definitely shown an ability to do. Lightning, by the definition of what it is, impacts electrical system. She can **** up electronics and tech. That is not arguable. All she has to do is cast lightning spells and she can **** up tech.

But the online bios I've read list his only telepathic feat as reading Barry Allen's mind, after he got super speed. I'm willing to bet R'amey is the more powerful telepath, but feel free to try and prove me wrong.

Kryad is from a time in which all of humanity has completely evolved to a primarily telepathic species. He's one of the most advanced telepaths in a society comprised entirely of telepaths.

 

[TheCorpulent1]

My votes are for Chaos & Order and the Spanish Inquisition.

wieg's team just flat-out has Nightwing's at a disadvantage, in my opinion, and with Adam Warlock's leadership abilities, even Exodus and Proctor's bad attitudes would fall in line eventually. Warlock managed to keep the likes of dumb Drax and Gamora in line, so I'm sure he could do the same here. Also, Nightwing had some questionable strategies, like Replicant having significant super-speed when there didn't seem to be anyone to absorb that from and Psylocke's psychic katanas disrupting the Vision's android, immune-to-telepathy mind. Adam Warlock went down way too easily in his scenario, too. So wieg's team, while seemingly at a disadvantage in cooperative ability, could conceivably be whipped into shape by Warlock, and he's got just about every other advantage.

Khell and Ari's match was tough. Both had pretty solid strategies but Khell's won out because I disagreed with a few of the arguments Ari presented. Lady Flash, based on those few pages, seems to simply be doing some basic Speed Force tricks and calling it magic. If that's the case, Walter's immune to her powers. Wally West has been shown to have a very unique connection to the Speed Force that prevents his speed from being sapped--we saw this in "Dead Heat" when Savitar drained every other speedster's speed but Wally's, and Walter's just Wally West from another reality. The souped up Turtle has, as far as I know, been the only character who could effectively drain Wally's speed. Also in "Dead Heat," we saw Savitar lending significant super-speed to not one, not two, not even a dozen, but an entire army of people, so Ari's claim that Walter--the only speedster who's more experienced with the Speed Force than Savitar--couldn't grant one teammate a major speed boost doesn't make sense to me. Given those faults in Ari's strategy, Khell's wins out for me.

 

[Aristotle]

Wally West has been shown to have a very unique connection to the Speed Force that prevents his speed from being sapped--we saw this in "Dead Heat" when Savitar drained every other speedster's speed but Wally's, and Walter's just Wally West from another reality.

That's a pretty tenuous argument. Not every Kal-El is the same. Not every Wally is the same. Yes, they look a lot alike, but until we've seen proof, I don't think we can assume that Walter has the same connection as Wally does.

Also in "Dead Heat," we saw Savitar lending significant super-speed to not one, not two, not even a dozen, but an entire army of people, so Ari's claim that Walter--the only speedster who's more experienced with the Speed Force than Savitar--couldn't grant one teammate a major speed boost doesn't make sense to me.

More experienced than Savitar? Savitar had a long time to practice. Nobody's as experienced as Savitar. Furthermore, Savitar creates speed, he doesn't lend it, which is what Wally and Walter do.

 

[TheCorpulent1]

Walter studied under Savitar on his world and then killed him. He's exhibited more refined control of the Speed Force than Savitar has, even speeding up and slowing down different parts of a villain's brain chemistry simultaneously to make him pass out--while standing still, coincidentally, which sort of shoots the "Walter can't create speed" argument down, too.

Furthermore, I think it's safe to assume that Wally and Walter have the same connection to the Speed Force. Walter could do pretty much everything Wally could and more besides, plus he and Wally physically merged into one being at one point. He could enter and exit the Speed Force the same way Wally could, which he used to dimension-hop.

 

[Franklin Richards]

Chaos & Order and the Spanish Inquisition.


I agree with alot of what Corp said. Mostly about the Adam Warlock crud. Also Vision prolly could have done a bit more.


Anywho. Good matches.

 

[Khellendros]

All she has to do is cast a massive blast of speed-sapping lightning. It's pretty simple. It's just a big uni-directional explosion.

Yeah, she didn't show anywhere NEAR the level of power. Also, what the ****? That would hit her own team in that case.

By the way, what Khel has basically downplayed is the idea that all Lady Flash has to do to eliminate Engineer's tech and nanomines is saturate the city with lightning and fry it. We already know Engineer is vulnerable to EMP and electric overload, because she's powerless post-World's End for that exact reason.

She never used lightning. God damnit, you have have almost a dozen speedsters, and you haven't figured out that the speed force when manifesting often LOOKS LIKE lightning? Doesn't mean that she was shooting lightning out of her fingertips. And it certainly doesn't mean she can cast on a city-wide level.

Flash literally can't lend her that much speed, because he doesn't have that much to give. Waverider is at lightspeed, and no Flash has ever reached lightspeed with dying a la Barry Allen. He can't catch her up to Waverider, and he can't get her even close without basically negating his own speed.

WTF? He's not amping her entire body up to moving at Flash level speeds. He's speeding up the processes of a single organ. And, like Corp said, the guy studied under Savitar, who could empower a ****load of ninjas to Flash-like speeds before it slowed him down.

You're making a hell of a big bluster about a character you don't think matters. And sure, you can argue that she should be removed from the League due to the page time rule, and we can talk about that elsewhere. But she wasn't disqualified before this match, so she's in. And all I really need from her for this match is lightning and speed manipulation. Those are two things she has definitely shown an ability to do. Lightning, by the definition of what it is, impacts electrical system. She can **** up electronics and tech. That is not arguable. All she has to do is cast lightning spells and she can **** up tech.

I'm making a big deal because it's so hilarious how HARDCORE a usually very canny dude ****ed up by putting her in this match. Icarus flew to close to the sun on wings made of Fail, which melted in my shining Awesomeness.

All you need is lightning and speed manipulation? Well, you got ONE of those. No way can you prove she can cast lightning. And her speed stealing sucks balls as well.

Kryad is from a time in which all of humanity has completely evolved to a primarily telepathic species. He's one of the most advanced telepaths in a society comprised entirely of telepaths.

Uh huh. Lets hear some feats. Because all I've heard of is his reading Barry's mind after he got super speed.

 

[Aristotle]

Yeah, she didn't show anywhere NEAR the level of power.

She cast the exact spell I'm talking about. It doesn't have to be powerful enough to shut Walter down, it just has to be powerful enough to put him at a disadvantage.

That would hit her own team in that case.

They stand behind her?

She never used lightning. God damnit, you have have almost a dozen speedsters, and you haven't figured out that the speed force when manifesting often LOOKS LIKE lightning?

No, it is lightning when it manifests itself that way. That's established. It's Speed Force lightning, but it is lightning.

He's not amping her entire body up to moving at Flash level speeds. He's speeding up the processes of a single organ.

If he's going to speed her up to anywhere near the levels at which she'd need to be thinking to take on Waverider and Kryad, he's producing more speed then he even has in the first place. If Walter West has the power to "lend" enough speed to make someone's mind move at lightspeed and not take any dip in speed himself, you're basically getting two Flash-level speedsters per match, plus a third uber! And that, as I'm sure you know, is tuber.

I'm making a big deal because it's so hilarious how HARDCORE a usually very canny dude ****ed up by putting her in this match.

You're making a big deal of it because if you lose this point, you lose the match and you know it.

All you need is lightning and speed manipulation? Well, you got ONE of those. No way can you prove she can cast lightning. And her speed stealing sucks balls as well.

Speed Force lightning is lightning. And I don't need her to be good at speed stealing. I just need her to do it with some force behind it.

 

[XFanTim]

I enjoyed Nightwing's writing, but I didn't think his team matched up well against Wieg's team, particularly at the uber level. Adam Warlock would beat Juggernaut easily, since Juggernaut has no defense against spiritual attacks. While stealing Juggernaut's soul would be a last resort, Adam wouldn't hesitate to use a karmic blast (basically the spiritual equivalent of a mind blast, but telepathy-resistance does nothing to stop it). I also think Exodus's telepathy would put down replicant.

Even if the battles happened the other way around, as Nightwing had it, I think Wieg's guys would be hard to beat. Exodus could potentially beat Juggernaut by teleporting him off the battlefield, and even if Replicant did get Warlock's gem away from him (which is easier said than done) it's important to remember the gem has a mind of its own which only Warlock's super-strong willpower is able to control. So Replicant would probably find himself possessed by the gem, instead of controlling it.

Chaos & Order

Icarus flew to close to the sun on wings made of Fail, which melted in my shining Awesomeness.

I give it to Khell on the basis of this sentence.

Just kidding, I'm going with Khell because I think he's write about Lady Flash. Even if speedforce lightning has the same effects as regular lightning, we don't know that she could generate enough of it to mess up Engineer. And even if her speed drain would be enough to make Walter lose, we don't know her reflexes are good enough to hit him with it.

Walter, in contrast, has a proven record of awesomeness. I think it was explicitly stated that he learned all Savitar's tricks before killing him. Plus, as Corp pointed out, there are other tricks Walter used that Savitar never did.

The Spanish Inquisition

 

[Khellendros]

She cast the exact spell I'm talking about. It doesn't have to be powerful enough to shut Walter down, it just has to be powerful enough to put him at a disadvantage.

The spell you're talking about is the spell she actually cost times fifty. No way in hell can you prove she has the kind of power.

They stand behind her?

My bad. I read that as Omni-directional. Aaanyways, we come back to the fact that she has no super speed herself, and thus by the time she realized Walter was in range, he'd have blown past her.

No, it is lightning when it manifests itself that way. That's established. It's Speed Force lightning, but it is lightning.

Ahhh you make me laugh. You have a single panel from which you want to pull lightning casting, EMP generating, and massive scale speed draining. A panel in which the ****ty spell is used against someone standing still at the time. Give me a BREAK, son.

If he's going to speed her up to anywhere near the levels at which she'd need to be thinking to take on Waverider and Kryad, he's producing more speed then he even has in the first place. If Walter West has the power to "lend" enough speed to make someone's mind move at lightspeed and not take any dip in speed himself, you're basically getting two Flash-level speedsters per match, plus a third uber! And that, as I'm sure you know, is tuber.

You talk about her thinking fast enough to take on Waverider like he thinks and reacts at the same level as his travel speed, which he DOES NOT. So, your point is kinda moot. And I lol'd at the pathetic tuber argument. Please, explain how one Uber speeding up another creates three Ubers? And, not even giving her legitimate physical super speed, but just the necessary reaction times to fight them?

You're making a big deal of it because if you lose this point, you lose the match and you know it.

Even if that were true (and it's not), there's no possible way any rational person can think I've lost this point. I completely destroyed it. I'm making a big deal out of it because it's such a massive gaffe on your part. You might as well draft a corpse for all the good she did you.

Speed Force lightning is lightning. And I don't need her to be good at speed stealing. I just need her to do it with some force behind it.

Yeah, but you DO need her to be able to use it on the intended target. And since the only instance of the spell being used was against someone who wasn't even moving, well... good luck with all THAT.

 

[Aristotle]

All she has to do is be able to cast the spell, facing forward. That's literally all she has to do.

 

[Aristotle]

Nightwing. As much as, at times, I want to vote for wieg, I think I buy Nightwing more. His writeup makes a lot more sense in the context of the power scales he's using than wieg's does. Wieg's lineup vs. Nighwings' lineup really requires a different strategy than he uses. Power-wise, Nightwing's lineup has the advantage, which means wieg's lineup requires a little more multi-dimensional engagement than he really provides.

 

[Nightwing]

The Spanish Inquisition vs. The Deadly Dozen - Good match up but lets face it...with no real defense against a team of speedsters theres only so much that can be done. This match could be over in seconds.

 

[Nightwing]

I enjoyed Nightwing's writing, but I didn't think his team matched up well against Wieg's team, particularly at the uber level. Adam Warlock would beat Juggernaut easily, since Juggernaut has no defense against spiritual attacks. While stealing Juggernaut's soul would be a last resort, Adam wouldn't hesitate to use a karmic blast (basically the spiritual equivalent of a mind blast, but telepathy-resistance does nothing to stop it). I also think Exodus's telepathy would put down replicant.

Even if the battles happened the other way around, as Nightwing had it, I think Wieg's guys would be hard to beat. Exodus could potentially beat Juggernaut by teleporting him off the battlefield, and even if Replicant did get Warlock's gem away from him (which is easier said than done) it's important to remember the gem has a mind of its own which only Warlock's super-strong willpower is able to control. So Replicant would probably find himself possessed by the gem, instead of controlling it.

Chaos & Order


I'll edit in a vote in the other match when I finish reading the debate.

Which is why I didnt have Jugs vs Warlock or Rep vs. Exodus...i was strategic based on their own weaknesses..

But cheers for the opinion

 

[Khellendros]

The Spanish Inquisition vs. The Deadly Dozen - Good match up but lets face it...with no real defense against a team of speedsters theres only so much that can be done. This match could be over in seconds.

What in Christ's name are you talking about, no defense? I set up a massive multi-layered defense, so unless you only read HIS writeup, that's just wrong.

 

[Khellendros]

All she has to do is be able to cast the spell, facing forward. That's literally all she has to do.

Except she has no idea WHEN to cast it, or which direction to be facing, or anything. She has NO super speed, NO range on the spell and NO ability to do anything but cast that single lame ass spell.

 

[Aristotle]

Which is why I didnt have Jugs vs Warlock or Rep vs. Exodus...i was strategic based on their own weaknesses..

But cheers for the opinion

Right, your matchups make more sense for you (i.e., you'll win your matchups), and your team has the power scale to dictate what the matchups are. I don't think I really made myself clear last night, being drunk.

 

[Aristotle]

NO ability to do anything but cast that single lame ass spell.

Call it lame ass, but it's all she has to do.

 

[wiegeabo]

Very tough match. Everytime I settled on voting for one team, I'd think about it some more and convince myself the other side was right.

At first I favored Khell technopathy and defensive traps.

But then I wondered if it would be enough against all those speedsters. And if increasing the speed of an uber's mind, as well as linking everyone and giving them 'pre-cog', might not be bumping them up in rank. So I switched to Ari.

Then I wondered if we'd seen enough of Lady Flash to support Ari's claims. We've only seen her slow down one person (not a speed force speedster) and they still broke free. No evidence that she can release and EMP because speed force lightening is not regular lightening. It may look like it, but it's made of speed force, not electricity. And I can't think of an instance where the speed force was used to fry tech in an EMP-like fashion.

So I finally settled on The Spanish Inquisition

 

[Khellendros]

Voting for Chaos & Order. Exodus and Warlock are top notch Uber fighters on their good days, and like Tim I could easily see any combination of one on one matches favoring Wieg's team big time.

 

[Aristotle]

Then I wondered if we'd seen enough of Lady Flash to support Ari's claims. We've only seen her slow down one person (not a speed force speedster) and they still broke free. No evidence that she can release and EMP because speed force lightening is not regular lightening. It may look like it, but it's made of speed force, not electricity. And I can't think of an instance where the speed force was used to fry tech in an EMP-like fashion.

1) The question of page-time is not for here. It's not like using a character in a way that makes them tuber, which has direct bearing on the match.
2) If I did use a character with less than adequate page-time, surely that's outweighed by the possibly tuber use of a character!
3) Even if we concede that Speed Force lightning can't be used as real lightning (which we shouldn't, because Speed Force lightning is real lightning), all that does is give Khel one reg fight, which is one that my writeup concedes to him anyway, and possibly the med fight. I still take the Liberty Belle fight, and I still take the uber fights!
4) Finally, and most importantly, it doesn't matter how effective the speed sapping is. It just has to stop Walter for a picosecond, which is all I ever claimed it could do. You stop him just for a moment, and then Kryad nails him and keeps him off-balance.

 

[Khellendros]

A picosecond? REALLY? Walter can heal GRIEVOUS injuries nearly instantly. No way is a picosecond's worth of time enough to put him down permanently.

 

[XFanTim]

Nothing can happen on a macroscopic scale in one picosecond. Even moving at lightspeed, you can only travel 3 tenths of a milimeter in a picosecond.

 

[wiegeabo]

Voting is now closed.
Final Results:

Heroes of the New Age 1
Chaos & Order 4

The Spanish Inquisition 4
The Deadly Dozen 1

 

[TheCorpulent1]

Nothing can happen on a macroscopic scale in one picosecond. Even moving at lightspeed, you can only travel 3 tenths of a milimeter in a picosecond.

You and your so-called 'science.' This is comics, man!