Batwoman Episode 01/09 "Crisis on Infinite Earths: Hour Two"

[misslane38]

I wasn't trying to be snarky

Telling me that the crossover didn't agree with my interpretations, which is basically you stating your opinions are more valid or accurate compared to mine, may not seem snarky to you, but it did to me. Agree to disagree.

 

[Orb]

Just wanna one more thing regarding the Supermen and Smallville. Doctor Fate once said to Clark that he would bring a SIlver Age of heroism and its obvious they gave Tom's Clark the ending of Silver Age Superman from "Whatever Happened to the Man of Tomorrow" where Clark gives up Superman to live a normal life with Lois, raising a family.

I just thought it was clever to have different eras of Superman representing the different eras of DC. Brandon's Superman (complete with the grey temples) is the Golden Age, Tom the Silver Age and now Tyler with the modern age. Like Marc said, this crossover is about passing on the torches and I feel the same will happen with Tyler's Superman.

 

[WhoMani]

Telling me that the crossover didn't agree with my interpretations, which is basically you stating your opinions are more valid or accurate compared to mine, may not seem snarky to you, but it did to me. Agree to disagree.

You're entitled to your opinions and I'm entitled to disagree with them, that's life. I never once stated or think that my opinion is more valid than you or anyone else and anyone is welcome to disagree with anything that I've said. You've been trying to downplay my opinions and accusing me of making statements that I've never made so of course I'm not going to take this discussion with you seriously.

 

[WhoMani]

Just wanna one more thing regarding the Supermen and Smallville. Doctor Fate once said to Clark that he would bring a SIlver Age of heroism and its obvious they gave Tom's Clark the ending of Silver Age Superman from "Whatever Happened to the Man of Tomorrow" where Clark gives up Superman to live a normal life with Lois, raising a family.

I just thought it was clever to have different eras of Superman representing the different eras of DC. Brandon's Superman (complete with the grey temples) is the Golden Age, Tom the Silver Age and now Tyler with the modern age. Like Marc said, this crossover is about passing on the torches and I feel the same will happen with Tyler's Superman.

I know this off topic but Whatever Happened to the Man of Tomorrow is such a great story and I hope one day they will adapt this story for a DC animated movie.

 

[Milk Tray Guy]

I know this off topic but Whatever Happened to the Man of Tomorrow is such a great story and I hope one day they will adapt this story for a DC animated movie.

Alan Moore rocks!

 

[vantheman77]

Whatever Happened To The Man of Tomorrow applies to the Smallville scene.

 

[heatvision38]

Your snark is unnecessary and misplaced. Clark can be happy with his life now AND with his life in the past. He seemed happy back when he was still powered as Superman and cohabitating with Lois too. According to his comment to Brainiac 5 in "Homecoming" after seeing his future as a reporter/hero/mate, his dream included a balanced life with superpowers. He said, "I always hoped my life would be like this. With Lois, with all of it."

Bottom line is that this outcome isn't Clark finally finding peace and happiness that had been eluding him, or Clark finally having his ultimate dream come true. It's him adding to his existing happiness as he evolves or grows over time, as is true with any person. He doesn't regret giving up his powers to have children, but that doesn't mean he regrets having powers or that he saw his life pre-kids as unsatisfying and burdensome. Meaning, he would still be open to being Superman again.

That's how I see it. On Smallville, getting/losing powers was like flicking a light switch. It would be easy to imagine he wanted to focus on having a family. But, in one's imagination, after either a couple of years or until some situation in the Smallville world necessitates it, he'll be right back to being Superman.

 

[heatvision38]

Just wanna one more thing regarding the Supermen and Smallville. Doctor Fate once said to Clark that he would bring a SIlver Age of heroism and its obvious they gave Tom's Clark the ending of Silver Age Superman from "Whatever Happened to the Man of Tomorrow" where Clark gives up Superman to live a normal life with Lois, raising a family.

I just thought it was clever to have different eras of Superman representing the different eras of DC. Brandon's Superman (complete with the grey temples) is the Golden Age, Tom the Silver Age and now Tyler with the modern age. Like Marc said, this crossover is about passing on the torches and I feel the same will happen with Tyler's Superman.

That's part of the problem to me. Hoechlin's Superman shouldn't need anyone to pass the torch to him. He is already a veteran Superman of 15+ years.

 

[vantheman77]

I wonder if the Smallville Earth being destroyed by the anti-matter wave is one of the deleted scenes.

 

[Thome216]

It wasn’t so long ago that fans were worried about Smallville Earth getting obliterated in Crisis - and ruining that series’ legacy. Now, there are complaints that a de-powered Clark is living happily ever after.

But presumably, there’s more Multiverse destruction to come; and what if Smallville Earth is among the future casualties? That’d be a double kick to the stones.

I wonder if the Smallville Earth being destroyed by the anti-matter wave is one of the deleted scenes.

There was a sentence in the preview I think for tonight's ep, where someone states that this Earth (I'm assuming referring to E1) is the only one left...

 

[Sithborg]

Welling and Cryer together was just great. Loved that scene.

 

[Lone]

Clark on Smallville in November 2018, a year before the Crisis:

He had nearly a decade flying in tights before he took some time off after his wedding to be with his wife and infant twin daughters. God forbid.

A decade of flying in tights? I must’ve missed those episodes where we saw Welling as Superman in costume...oh wait.

He didn’t just take time off. He literally said he gave it all up just to be a regular family man. He said having kids is worth more than any superpower. This the no flights, no tights rule taken to it’s natural conclusion.

Bottomline is, this event is a form of fanservice. I know I’m not the only fan here who wants and have been wanting to at least see Welling suit up, just one time(kicking ass would be a bonus) after that bull**** Smallville finale years ago. He could be standing around in the supersuit doing **** all and I’d be ok with that.

Anyway there’s still a few more episodes left so I’m still not gonna rule out the possibility that I might get to see that happen no matter how small that probability is LOL.

 

[The Batman]

1. I can't say I'm disappointed with the SV scene, because the ending of Smallville was already disappointing to begin with, and it's clear that Welling doesn't want to be costumed Superman.

2. Sure, it makes perfect sense to make Kate superior to an Evil Batman....but the thing is, this may be the only time we see Bruce in this crossover, the first time we see any Bruce in the Arrowverse at all, and the first time Kevin Conroy gets to play Bruce in live action, and...they make him evil, mainly to prop up Kate. Not surprising people would be disappointed.

3. I already feel like Routh has better chemistry with Tulloch than Tyler does. Maybe it was the Williams music.

 

[Milk Tray Guy]

Sure, it makes perfect sense to make Kate superior to an Evil Batman....but the thing is, this may be the only time we see Bruce in this crossover, the first time we see any Bruce in the Arrowverse at all, and the first time Kevin Conroy gets to play Bruce in live action, and...they make him evil, mainly to prop up Kate. Not surprising people would be disappointed.

Completely agree. There's two sides to it.

 

[misslane38]

A decade of flying in tights? I must’ve missed those episodes where we saw Welling as Superman in costume...oh wait.

Clark wore the suit. It was in the finale. Welling not wearing the actual suit doesn't negate that his character was shown on it. Don't play dumb.

He didn’t just take time off. He literally said he gave it all up just to be a regular family man. He said having kids is worth more than any superpower. This the no flights, no tights rule taken to it’s natural conclusion.

None of that foreclosed the possibility of being Superman again.

Anyway there’s still a few more episodes left so I’m still not gonna rule out the possibility that I might get to see that happen no matter how small that probability is LOL.

I think it's impossible.

 

[Lantern Venom]

DCTV Superman gave up his powers to live on Argo in order to have a child, and he did so because he believed he left Earth in capable hands. I am not quite sure why Clark from Smallville cannot do the same, particularly when Alan Moore wrote the same ending for Pre-Crisis Superman.

Lois said it best tonight when she said of KC Superman, "He never gives up, no matter what Earth he's from." That might not be exact, but it hits at the heart of Superman's values. I have an easier time seeing some version of him driven to insanity ala Injustice because he cares so much than to be someone who shirks his responsibilities. That goes against everything that Jonathan and Martha (WHY DID I TYPE THAT NAME?!!) taught him. If there is any hero in the DC Universe who isn't a quitter, it's Kal.

 

[flickchick85]

I'm personally sick of this weird stigma that heroes can't retire. It doesn't send a particularly good message, imo. Our heroes in real-life all eventually retire and take some time for themselves and their families, and they're no less heroic for it. Being a good husband is heroic. Being a good father is heroic, too. Just because you're not saving countless lives everyday anymore doesn't change the fact that you DID, or diminish your contribution to the world. Superheroes don't owe anyone eternal service, even if they live for eternity.

 

[Lantern Venom]

I'm personally sick of this weird stigma that heroes can't retire. It doesn't send a particularly good message, imo. Our heroes in real-life all eventually retire and take some time for themselves and their families, and they're no less heroic for it. Being a good husband is heroic. Being a good father is heroic, too. Just because you're not saving countless lives everyday anymore doesn't change the fact that you DID, or diminish your contribution to the world. Superheroes don't owe anyone eternal service, even if they live for eternity.

In just about any other case, I'd agree with you. Heroes aging out of their roles, getting to the point where they feel like they're doing more harm than good, training others, etc is a staple of comic book lore. However, Superman is a godlike character and he is aware of what that means. Action Comics #1000 featured a story where he was no only still alive billions of years into the future, but he was still active as Superman. That's indicative of the values that he holds dear.

 

[Lone]

Clark wore the suit. It was in the finale. Welling not wearing the actual suit doesn't negate that his character was shown on it. Don't play dumb.



None of that foreclosed the possibility of being Superman again.



I think it's impossible.

Ok, Tom.

 

[flickchick85]

In just about any other case, I'd agree with you. Heroes aging out of their roles, getting to the point where they feel like they're doing more harm than good, training others, etc is a staple of comic book lore. However, Superman is a godlike character and he is aware of what that means. Action Comics #1000 featured a story where he was no only still alive billions of years into the future, but he was still active as Superman. That's indicative of the values that he holds dear.

After he'd raised a family. It was implied in that story that he spent a great deal of time with them and lived a full life with them. One can fill in the blanks as to how that happened. I personally like to believe he settled down for a bit and let the countless other heroes he'd inspired take the reins for a while he focused on his family, and then sprung back into action when he was needed again. Especially since it's been billions of years at that point. Every person needs change and variety in their life, even eternal beings.

 

[Lantern Venom]

After he'd raised a family. It was implied in that story that he spent a great deal of time with them and lived a full life with them. One can fill in the blanks as to how that happened. I personally like to believe he settled down for a bit and let the countless other heroes he'd inspired take the reins for a while he focused on his family, and then sprung back into action when he was needed again. Especially since it's been billions of years at that point. Every person needs change and variety in their life, even eternal beings.

I don't currently have the issue with me, but Supes mentioned some kind of grape-flavored elixir that Lois had been drinking to keep her alive. He didn't quit, he made sure that she lived alongside him.
While it's not antithetical for Kal to do something like go on a honeymoon (and Batsy employed a lot of heroes to take up the slack), it's not in his nature to be selfish, even for his family.

We all have out personal boundaries for heroes, which is why some pockets of fans got outraged when Batman killed on screen, Captain America became an anti-government fugitive during Civil War, or when Spider-man became a lawbreaker (not to mention making a deal with the devil) trying to save Aunt May in One More Day. My personal line that should never be crossed is when the first, and arguably the most pure, super hero in comic book history decides that doing the right thing should be secondary. That simply isn't who he is.

 

[flickchick85]

I don't currently have the issue with me, but Supes mentioned some kind of grape-flavored elixir that Lois had been drinking to keep her alive. He didn't quit, he made sure that she lived alongside him.
While it's not antithetical for Kal to do something like go on a honeymoon (and Batsy employed a lot of heroes to take up the slack), it's not in his nature to be selfish, even for his family.

We all have out personal boundaries for heroes, which is why some pockets of fans got outraged when Batman killed on screen, Captain America became an anti-government fugitive during Civil War, or when Spider-man became a lawbreaker (not to mention making a deal with the devil) trying to save Aunt May in One More Day. My personal line that should never be crossed is when the first, and arguably the most pure, super hero in comic book history decides that doing the right thing should be secondary. That simply isn't who he is.

Agree to disagree. My favorite thing about Clark is that underneath it all, he's just a regular ol' good guy, raised by a couple of humble farmers. He has wants and needs as human as any of us, and unlike Batman, he doesn't shut himself off from those things completely. I don't believe taking time to devote to your family is selfish, and I never will, sorry. Doing so doesn't make him stop being Superman, either. If Smallville Clark, as presented in this crossover, saw someone in trouble downtown, or in a neighboring farm, you think he wouldn't do everything he could to help? Of course he would. Because he's still Superman underneath. But he's also capable of recognizing which fights are his, and which are just as well-suited (or in this case, better-suited) to be handled by other heroes. He saw that there was already a Superman in this fight, afterall. Because a big part of Superman is his faith in other people. Like in Up, Up and Away, when he's powerless and trusts in Kara to swoop in and save the day. That's who he is to me. He doesn't have to be the top champion of all-time all the time. He can be human at times too, and would never consider that a handicap. It doesn't make him any less special to say he was a happily devoted family man there for a while during his kids' formative years as others took up the mantle. That's not a permanent condition for him, just a part of living out the human experience.

 

[The Incredible Hulk]

A decade of flying in tights? I must’ve missed those episodes where we saw Welling as Superman in costume...oh wait.

I mean there was literally a two year comic run after the TV show ended of him doing EXACTLY that

Anyway there’s still a few more episodes left so I’m still not gonna rule out the possibility that I might get to see that happen no matter how small that probability is LOL.

Berlanti did say we'd see three Supermen on screen together so who knows? Watch us get a surprise Dean Cain cameo. lol

 

[The Caped Knight]

A decade of flying in tights? I must’ve missed those episodes where we saw Welling as Superman in costume...oh wait.

He didn’t just take time off. He literally said he gave it all up just to be a regular family man. He said having kids is worth more than any superpower. This the no flights, no tights rule taken to it’s natural conclusion.

Bottomline is, this event is a form of fanservice. I know I’m not the only fan here who wants and have been wanting to at least see Welling suit up, just one time(kicking ass would be a bonus) after that bull**** Smallville finale years ago. He could be standing around in the supersuit doing **** all and I’d be ok with that.

Anyway there’s still a few more episodes left so I’m still not gonna rule out the possibility that I might get to see that happen no matter how small that probability is LOL.

The articles in question of the newspaper articles are actually homages to some of the adventures from the season 11 comics and technically that means Sv's Clark has been Superman for over more than decade. Which given that the notions of given up his powers to settled down with Lois isn't to far of a stretch.

Plus I'm sure Conner is still Superboy, Kara is Supergirl and who not too say that Clark's daughters don't have super powers of their own?!

 

[misslane38]

Lois said it best tonight when she said of KC Superman, "He never gives up, no matter what Earth he's from." That might not be exact, but it hits at the heart of Superman's values. I have an easier time seeing some version of him driven to insanity ala Injustice because he cares so much than to be someone who shirks his responsibilities. That goes against everything that Jonathan and Martha (WHY DID I TYPE THAT NAME?!!) taught him. If there is any hero in the DC Universe who isn't a quitter, it's Kal.

Yet, Arrowverse Kal was doing the same thing on Argo until he had no choice but to participate, and it's canon other Kals quit in comics. WHATEVER HAPPENED TO THE MAN OF TOMORROW is one, KINGDOM COME is another. SUPERMAN II Kal quit to be with Lois, and even SUPERMAN RETURNS Kal abandoned his heroism on Earth for 5 years. SMALLVILLE Kal is basically on paternity leave, as his twin girls are only about 1 year old. He isn't doing anything different or worse than his counterparts, and Lois' line is a sweet generalization, but it's hardly accurate and becomes a hypocritical standard to judge Superman by, including her own husband.