Episode 01/09 "Crisis on Infinite Earths: Hour Two"

Discussion in 'Batwoman' started by Dr., Nov 12, 2019.

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  1. misslane38 Registered

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    While it's true that the Season 11 comics covered what was basically the year after Clark's debut, and while I agree with you that Smallville Clark had been Superman for about a decade at the time of the Crisis Crossover — from 2011 (his debut year) until 2019 (the crossover) — I have my doubts about the newspaper articles being connected to the Season 11 comics.

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    They're mostly homages to Donnerverse/Returns headlines, which is in keeping with Smallville's habit of homaging their predecessors and peers. the "CAPED WONDER" headline is from Superman I, the "I SPENT THE NIGHT WITH SUPERMAN" is from Superman Returns, and the "SUPERMAN SAVES THE DAY!" is from Smallville's 2017 flashforward from their 200th episode "Homecoming."

    Yep. SV Clark lived in a world filled with other heroes.
     
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  2. vantheman77 Superman Fan 4 Life

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    I called it that Lex was going to do something that will cause the Supermen to battle each other.
     
  3. Lantern Venom Lego SUCKS

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    Don't get me started on that moment in Superman 2. That's my least favorite moment in any super hero movie, ever. I hated it as a kid in 1980, and I loathe it as an adult.

    I would also completely disagree with you on the line that Lois said. It was a good way to describe the KC Superman's reaction to Crisis. He had obviously been traumatized and had lost hope, but he realized his duty to the Multiverse much in the same way that his traumatized comic counterpart realized that he needed to overcome his personal despair to battle the brutal heroes that had risen in the place of the JL. That's what a hero does.

    Admittedly, I wasn't a huge Smallville fan, so correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't the main theme of the show about a young Kal struggling with his identity on his way to accepting his role as a hero in the final season? That's what I remember about it, especially when he realized that there were not only threats to humanity on Earth, but cosmic ones as well. And after all of that, the epilogue is a guy who decides to chop wood? That's hardly a fitting send-off.
     
  4. Lantern Venom Lego SUCKS

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    I loved the comic arc where he got a Green Lantern ring. That would have been a cool costume to see on the show.

    And I'd be happy to see a Dean Cain-as-Supes appearance.
     
  5. Dark Raven The Gal from Themyscira

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    I think they had Clark give up his powers partly to explain why Welling looks older and has put on weight. Otherwise he should still be in the shape he was in Smallville.

    Also Hoechlin really needs to start working out. He looks smaller than when he first debuted, and definitely smaller than the other Supermen.
     
  6. vantheman77 Superman Fan 4 Life

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    I think we can bet on Kevin Conroy playing the real older Bruce Wayne for Batwoman down the line.

    I thought Sara and Mia were going to fight each other.
     
    #256 vantheman77, Dec 12, 2019
    Last edited: Dec 12, 2019
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  7. Dr. From parts unknown

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    Minor correction:

    The “I Spent the Night With Superman” headline may have appeared in SR as an Easter Egg/homage (I don’t recall). But it definitely originated in Superman The Movie.
     
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  8. Milk Tray Guy 70s Man of Action

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    I hope so. I'd like to see him get to play real Bruce.
     
  9. misslane38 Registered

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    Yet, its existence alone contradicts Lois Lane's line in the crossover as something that's true of Superman—this Superman in particular whose history includes that moment. The other examples that I pointed out, most of which you didn't address, further contradict it as any true statement about Superman.

    It is a good way to describe KC Superman's reaction, but she didn't state it as just about him. She made a generalization—one that you then used to assess other versions as less worthy—and that is why the line, and your interpretation of it, don't work. Lois said, "Guy never quits no matter what Earth he's from, huh?" If she had left it as, wow this guy never quits, it'd make sense. But, as it is, the only reason he's with them is because he's the Paragon. It's not like they went around to other Earths recruiting any and all available heroes, including all Supermen. He's there because he was singled out. He's at a different stage in his life with his wife dead and his kid grown up (he'd be about 19), so he's more free to go on this adventure.

    So, if Lois' comment is just about how KC Superman keeps going, then it's fine. But if it's read as her commenting about Supermen across Earths, and then used to criticize other Supermen by comparison, then it's not fine, especially when this very same KC Superman is Superman II and Superman Returns Superman combined—both of whom quit.

    Yes, that's what Smallville focused on, and he did accept his role as a public hero. He had been acting as a hero since the Pilot, however, and had defeated almost all of his major villains before he was Superman. He put in an additional 8 years or so before deciding to focus on family for awhile. He didn't decide to just chop wood. He decided to be there for his wife and daughters during the earliest years of the girls' lives (they're only about a year old!) without having to deal with the crushing weight of having to choose to respond to his baby's cry or a cry for help from a person in need. He also spent those years forging friendships and inspiring others who could take over in times of crisis, if need be. In one of the show's final episodes, Lois' father, General Lane, even offered this advice to Clark:

    Can I give you some advice, Clark? Going to war having to deal with the rush of battle and the struggle to save lives it made coming home and doing the simple things difficult. But, you know, it's funny. It's the simple things, like taking a walk or dancing with your wife tucking in the kids, that make us human. Now, don't get me wrong. I've loved serving our country. I even got to be a hero a couple times. But if I had to do it over again I'd spend more time with the family.

    Clark's approach to his work/life balance is always evolving. He's not unlike human adults in that regard. As far as one can tell, this isn't a permanent thing. It's more like paternity leave. And, based on the way other Supermen have been portrayed, and the way the Arrowverse has heroes like Felicity, Vibe, and Black Lightning all taking time off to focus on their personal lives and families, it isn't something that clashes with the ethos of these shows or presents SV Clark in a more negative light by comparison.
     
  10. vantheman77 Superman Fan 4 Life

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    If you go back to the Smallville pilot, for Clark it was whether he was Man or Superman and for Lex it was about his destiny as his arch-enemy.
     
  11. Thome216 Registered

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    [QUOTE="vantheman77, post: 37982910, member: 91031"]I think we can bet on Kevin Conroy playing the real older Bruce Wayne for Batwoman down the line.

    I thought Sara and Mia were going to fight each other.[/QUOTE]

    I would love to see that. They already have the actor and they are going to need him anyway if they are ever going to answer as to why he left Gotham.

    As for Smallville Superman giving up his powers for his children... Think about that. He gave them up for his kids. No matter who a man was before, to give something up that intrinsic to themselves for their family is a heroic dead.
    But, nothing was ever said that he had given up being Superman forever. They didn't go deep enough into the conversation at all to really take that as what he did. Everything else is just assumptions. My assumption is that he took time off to be a husband and a father and there was a version of the JL around to let him take the time to do that. I also assume, that given the time, when his kids are grown enough or when the danger is imminent, he would don the cape once again.
     
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  12. dhandler01 Half breed!

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    SV Clark giving up his powers was honestly the coolest I ever found the character. Clark on that show was the main character not Superman so it fits he would choose that life over that of a hero when it came down to it.
     
  13. vantheman77 Superman Fan 4 Life

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    Imagine Felicity with Lois and Iris.
     
  14. Dark Raven The Gal from Themyscira

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    He seems a bit old for a Bruce Wayne of Batwoman's world. He's older even than her father, and more like her grandfather. I'd prefer a younger Bruce Wayne more a similar age to her father.

    On another note, why did Lois say when she entered the Daily Planet "now this is a newspaper"? It's almost as if the version of the Planet that she works at is not like an old school classic newspaper office or even something like Catco. Why should she be awed by it otherwise?
     
    #264 Dark Raven, Dec 13, 2019
    Last edited: Dec 13, 2019
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  15. Luigi Futurism

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    Improvement over the second episode and Tom Welling's return was perfect. It's as if he never left the role.
     
  16. vantheman77 Superman Fan 4 Life

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    What's sad about this is that we never got to see the two Supermen fight together. Instead, they fought each other thanks to Lex.
     
  17. Dr. From parts unknown

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    I thought Conroy fine. And under different circumstances, it would be kinda neat to have him make occasional appearances as the Earth-1/Batwoman version of Bruce Wayne. He’d still need to be reclusive, retired and disillusioned in order to serve the Batwoman storyline. But he wouldn't be (obviously) as cuckoo as the Earth-99/Crisis version. :cool:

    However, as noted, his age is an issue. I’ve calculated that Batwoman’s Bruce should be about 40-45. Even if Conroy is playing 10 years younger than his RL age (which he could plausibly pull off), the chronology would still be problematic.

    Of course, Crisis will (apparently) allow each series to rewrite their own histories and continuities. (The ultimate “do-over.”) So conceivably, Batwoman’s could be rewritten to accommodate a somehow older Bruce Wayne…? :shrug:

    This could all be moot, however. It’s entirely possible that WB/DC won’t permit further on-screen appearances of the character.
     
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  18. Lantern Venom Lego SUCKS

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    Really? He left his nation in the hands of Lex Luthor and, if there isn't another appearance in the last 2 episodes of CoIE, that means he also shrugged off the entire multiverse.

    To each his/her own, but I prefer the DC Rebirth Superman where duty and family coexist instead of being pitting against one another.
     
  19. misslane38 Registered

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    In the comics, Clark didn't have much recourse when it came to Lex being president either. If he was democratically elected, fair and square, there's not much to do other than be a good journalist to keep Lex on his toes. His mom is an influential senator and his father in law is a general. They both can help too. Powers would only be needed if Lex abused his office beyond the normal decisions a president makes. For that, though, Clark has a team if heroes to rely on.

    As for the multiverse, the three visitors didn't have enough time to make a convincing or actionable pitch. They also were only looking for a Paragon. He had no way of following up or getting involved once they left.
     
  20. dhandler01 Half breed!

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    I didnt say I prefer it, I said it made sense for that version of the character. SV Clark was never about him being a hero, it was about his life as Clark Kent. And again it isnt like there arent other heroes out there...

    Comic Clark /= Smallville Clark and until the last couple seasons they went out of their way to make that obvious.
     
  21. misslane38 Registered

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    That's not true. The show was about Clark accepting his role as a hero. For him normal wasn't living a normal life, but not feeling like a freak; he found a way to do that by being Clark and Superman. In the later seasons, episodes like Hex and Homecoming explicitly showed how much being a hero was important to him. He's just taking paternity leave, not rejecting his destiny altogether. That's not him and never was.
     
  22. WhoMani Registered

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    Honestly it is possible that SV Clark is just taking a 'paternity leave' and simply wants to spend time with his family. We don't even know the circumstance of how Clark lost his powers and if they will ever come back.
     
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  23. The Guard Registered

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    I think it's vague enough that I don't really see a point in endlessly debating what SMALLVILLE presented or how it left Clark in relation to where he apparently is now. People and characters change over a period of time, and having kids changes things, too. They were quite possibly just sneaking in the "having kids changes thing" angle that we're going to see in the actual Superman series.
     
  24. vantheman77 Superman Fan 4 Life

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    Good thing Tyler and Brandon understood Superman better than the execs.

     
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  25. Lantern Venom Lego SUCKS

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    I still can't believe how amazing the Kingdom Come costume was.
     
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