F'dup Chapters in American History(The Trump Years) - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Part 25

[Aximili86]

An economic threat? Bwaha!

Man, their government doesn't care if their people live in squalor. So long as they provide their sons to the cause as soon as they're old enough to throw a Molotov.

Again, you can move the Jews out of East Jerusalem and mandate they be Arab neighborhoods with their own local government. Cool. But that's not what this is about, the core of it is the religious sites. You can't do some time-share scheme on the most important spiritual site of three religions. Someone's going to have it, and it's either going to be the Jews or the Muslims.

Let's see the United Nations crack that.

 

[Aximili86]

In terms of a wall.... I don't know where you're coming from on that one. That's not what I'm suggesting.

And I know a wall isn't what you're suggesting. It's what it'd take though, if you were to divide up Jerusalam in this way. Anything short of it would be bus attack-a-palooza like it used to be before the Israelis got even more hardcore on their own turf a while back.

 

[MaceB]

An economic threat? Bwaha!

Man, their government doesn't care if their people live in squalor. So long as they provide their sons to the cause as soon as they're old enough to throw a Molotov.

That seems pretty stereotypical to me and probably not true. Sanctions aren't fun, and their people wouldn't like them, nor their leaders.

Again, you can move the Jews out of East Jerusalem and mandate they be Arab neighborhoods with their own local government. Cool. But that's not what this is about, the core of it is the religious sites. You can't do some time-share scheme on the most important spiritual site of three religions. Someone's going to have it, and it's either going to be the Jews or the Muslims.

Let's see the United Nations crack that.

I understand that someone has got to have it. That's what the negotiations would have to be about, and IMO, Israel would have to be willing to make concessions for this to work.. and even then, the Palestinians wouldn't take it. Like others have said... there's too much history... too little reason to trust each other.

Because of that, I'm arguing that in order for a deal to be real, it couldn't just be between these two nations. The deal would need the weight of the international community behind it with actual economic repercussions. That's the only way it could work.

 

[Aximili86]

And even then...

It just removes it a step. Then it becomes "who trusts the UN"?

 

[redhawk23]

It's always curious that Israel's most ardent hate doesn't come from the Middle East, it comes from the comfortable countries that have no enemies at their gates. Always the comfortable citizens in the USA, France, Sweden, Norway, or England who don't have to worry about their safety that condemn Israel for defending its citizens.

This concept of self-defense as aggression is an odd one. When a violent threat arrives we'll see who holds on to the view that a government shouldn't defend its citizens.

The United States spends billions of dollars a year to subsidize Israel's existence. Excuse U.S. citizens if they have a fee concerns about this slaughter.

 

[DeadPresident]

The United States spends billions of dollars a year to subsidize Israel's existence. Excuse U.S. citizens if they have a fee concerns about this slaughter.

Bar the slight hyperbole I'm completely on board with your point. If slaughter is what US citizens are concerned about I'd imagine they'd be uncomfortable about a situation that arises that might cause the "slaughter" of Israelis, whether they're Arabs or Jews right?

Because any situation that shifts the power balance to favor Palestine will directly contribute to a reality where lots of Israelis will die - or is that just cosmic comeuppance for the sins of their government?

I'm also reluctant to take the outrage of US citizens too seriously because I don't see this level of disgust for the human rights abuses of some other US allies in the ME, somehow the bulk of vitriol is saved for Israel.

The US subsidizes Saudi Arabia's continued existence by pouring billions into their coffers for oil - where's the BDS movement for Saudi's various departures from acceptable Human Rights conduct?

 

[DeadPresident]

I hear you man. I'm just trying to offer up solutions. I mean yeah.. it's been tried before and failed before. It may fail this time too. But we've got to try and fail again I guess.
What's your solution?

The solution in my heart is exactly what you've suggested, I agree with everything you're saying 100% but the issue is it's been tried before and it failed then under much, much better circumstances, and if everyone was willing to be honest instead of batting for team underdog they'd admit it fell apart because the Palestinians (at the behest of Arafat and other extremists) had an all-or-nothing view.

Ideally I'd recommend exactly what you're saying, but Israel suggesting a solution will be immediately shot down unless that solution is every Israeli Jew scatters to the four corners of the globe again. And then, under full sovereignty all the Palestinian factions will start bombing each other in order to establish who gets control.

 

[childeroland]

N. Korea Threatens to Cancel U.S. Summit

 

[DarthSkywalker]

The Palestinians and the Israelis both do not offer a solution. But it is Israel who is given free reign by some to displace people, treat them like dirt, to even murder them. And then the other side is blamed. Netanyahu and his people are the Israeli Hamas.

 

[DeadPresident]

The Palestinians and the Israelis both do offer a solution. But it is Israel who is given free reign by some to displace people, treat them like dirt, to even murder them. And then the other side is blamed. Netanyahu and his people are the Israeli Hamas.

You fall into the same trap of talking about this like it just popped into existence and Israelis were always murderous bastards.

British and American politicians agreed in the early 1900s there must be a homeland for the Jews. The Jews were being slaughtered (literally) in Eastern Europe, they were assisted to migrate to Israel. They lived peacefully for the beginning until too many Jews came along (plotting their Illuminati parties, no doubt), some of whom even bought land from the Arabs there at the time.

Then WWII happens and the UN decides it's imperative for Jews to have a homeland and Jews even illegally migrate there because of their fear of being killed in Europe and in the wake of the Holocaust. The Arab Israeli war happens, the Six Day war happens, the Yom Kippur war happens - all instigated by Arab or Muslim nations. This didn't happen overnight, the Jews tried to live as peacefully as possible considering the were fleeing from a literal existential threat - where was the common human courtesy then? They didn't create any settlements initially, they didn't bomb anyone, they didn't take land by force, they didn't brutalize any people. That all happened after they were consistently denied the right to exist in a safe homeland by several countries who suddenly found solidarity when the pesky Jews showed up on their doorstep.

None of this mitigates what Israel is currently doing, Netanyahu is exacerbating the problem drastically, but this weird notion progressives have of history starting at the first Intifada is quite bizarre and decontextualizes the entire reason Israel exists.

It's morbidly funny, but the same way Middle Eastern refugees are fleeing to seek asylum and safety from their own heads of state is the situation Jews found themselves in in the early 20th century. The Arabs tried to exile them as soon as they arrived, and now people are asking for mercy and compassion for Palestinians and condemning a nation filled with people who asked for, and were denied, the exact same thing a hundred years ago. It's almost poetic.

 

[Orba]

This didn't happen overnight, the Jews tried to live as peacefully as possible considering the were fleeing from a literal existential threat - where was the common human courtesy then? They didn't create any settlements initially, they didn't bomb anyone, they didn't take land by force, they didn't brutalize any people.

Apart from incidents like the King David Hotel bombing, right?

 

[DeadPresident]

Apart from incidents like the King David Hotel bombing, right?

The British mandated that Jews could move to Israel thirty years prior, then because political pressure gets to them they want to renege on the deal and you're surprised Jews who barely a year earlier found themselves burned by the thousands in funeral pyres didn't want to give up sovereignty for fear of extermination?

It's actually hilarious that people absolve Palestinians of escalation of violence through terrorist groups because of their dire straits, but you'll use an example like the KDH bombing to condemn Israelis with who were acting out of the same desperation.

Pick any identity category of yours and imagine half your continent's inhabitants with that identity were torched in 2017 and tell me you wouldn't fight for your survival.

Palestinians use terrorist tactics to ensure their survival in 2018 = It's fine, what would you do in their position?

Jews use terrorist tactics to ensure their survival in 1946 (directly after the Holocaust) = They've always been violent animals.

A lot of people here clearly have no understanding of causality and how chains of events created the current cluster**** - all they want is to Israel knocked down a peg or two, whatever the consequences.

Your example is pretty terrible in general though, because the bombing was carried out by an extremist group of Israelis, they don't represent all Jews in the area in the time any more than ISIS represents all Muslims in the Levant, or any more than Netanyahu and his ilk represent all Israeli Jews. On the whole Jews were trying to peacefully coexist, but they became increasingly desperate and aggressive because they were inconveniently being gassed in droves in Europe…Almost like Palestinians are getting more and more desperate and aggressive because their plight isn't being listened to. Two sides of the same coin.

 

[Black Narcissus]

You guys are better informed on this topic than I, but whenever I think about the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.. it brings to mind a quote I like from Game of Thrones:

"We make peace with our enemies, not our friends."

In order for this thing to work, Israel has to be more willing to make concessions. If they aren't willing to give up anything, then the peace process can't go forward.

I agree, but this is hard to do when one side has a militant group with an all or nothing view and they also call upon the eradication of one side. Table manners at that dinner table would be hostile to say the least. Unfortunately for them, there are important pieces of land that they just will never ever get back, and until they make peace with that, it will be pointless, I know that really sucks for them , but this is the truth. No amount of goodwill or hopefulness of a free Palestine in their life time will ever change that fact. I also feel like the US made a mistake in practically giving Israel a blank check to do what ever the hell they want. This conflict will be ever going long after you and I are gone.

 

[Schlosser85]

So North Korea abruptly stopped talks with South Korea and is threatening to cancel the summit with Trump.

I guess there goes that Nobel.

 

[Thundercrack85]

So North Korea abruptly stopped talks with South Korea and is threatening to cancel the summit with Trump.

I guess there goes that Nobel.

I think they'll get a few more concessions out of Trump before the break off talks entirely.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

You fall into the same trap of talking about this like it just popped into existence and Israelis were always murderous bastards.

British and American politicians agreed in the early 1900s there must be a homeland for the Jews. The Jews were being slaughtered (literally) in Eastern Europe, they were assisted to migrate to Israel. They lived peacefully for the beginning until too many Jews came along (plotting their Illuminati parties, no doubt), some of whom even bought land from the Arabs there at the time.

Then WWII happens and the UN decides it's imperative for Jews to have a homeland and Jews even illegally migrate there because of their fear of being killed in Europe and in the wake of the Holocaust. The Arab Israeli war happens, the Six Day war happens, the Yom Kippur war happens - all instigated by Arab or Muslim nations. This didn't happen overnight, the Jews tried to live as peacefully as possible considering the were fleeing from a literal existential threat - where was the common human courtesy then? They didn't create any settlements initially, they didn't bomb anyone, they didn't take land by force, they didn't brutalize any people. That all happened after they were consistently denied the right to exist in a safe homeland by several countries who suddenly found solidarity when the pesky Jews showed up on their doorstep.

None of this mitigates what Israel is currently doing, Netanyahu is exacerbating the problem drastically, but this weird notion progressives have of history starting at the first Intifada is quite bizarre and decontextualizes the entire reason Israel exists.

It's morbidly funny, but the same way Middle Eastern refugees are fleeing to seek asylum and safety from their own heads of state is the situation Jews found themselves in in the early 20th century. The Arabs tried to exile them as soon as they arrived, and now people are asking for mercy and compassion for Palestinians and condemning a nation filled with people who asked for, and were denied, the exact same thing a hundred years ago. It's almost poetic.

Netanyahu and his people. What are they doing to fix anything?

Also it is absolutely rich to make the argument that we should allow Israel to murder people because Jewish people have been treated poorly by other countries in the past when that is not only ridiculous in concept but Israel only exist because...

 

[Thundercrack85]

The question of whether or not Israel has the right to exist has been settled. Obviously it does and it's not going anywhere. The question now is, do the Palestinians have a right to a state? And if most Israelis and Israel supporters are honest, they would have to answer no. They have done everything to make sure that there will never be a Palestinian state.

 

[DeadPresident]

Netanyahu and his people. What are they doing to fix anything?

Nothing - which is why I continually identify him as the biggest enemy not only to Palestinian agency but also Israel's ability to go back onto the world stage as a country people can support.

Also it is absolutely rich to make the argument that we should allow Israel to murder people because Jewish people have been treated poorly by other countries in the past when that is not only ridiculous in concept but Israel only exist because...

I know you're not deliberately misinterpreting what I said, but just to clarify I didn't make the argument that anyone should "allow Israel to murder people". What I was pointing out is the quirky double standard that when desperate Palestinians use lethal force and attempt to kill civilian Israelis they're freedom fighters, but when Jews did it to force the existence of a homeland so they'd be free from deadly persecution in Europe people clutch their pearls.

This single case is the only time I've seen people respond with "Yeah...but what about what the other side is doing" to the question of "Is firing RPGs into civilian neighborhoods acceptable". Attempted murder out of desperation is apparently acceptable as long as it isn't a Jew doing it.

The question of whether or not Israel has the right to exist has been settled. Obviously it does and it's not going anywhere. The question now is, do the Palestinians have a right to a state? And if most Israelis and Israel supporters are honest, they would have to answer no. They have done everything to make sure that there will never be a Palestinian state.

You mean except those multiple times when there were solutions put on the table and Palestinian authorities refused? On what grounds would you suggest you can say with some amount of certainty that most Israelis would want to deny Palestine statehood?

If (and I support it) Palestine becomes a state what's the international community going to do to ensure that the war doesn't just continue only now it's just on more even footing? The correct answer is to disarm them, but nobody will go for it because "What if Israel decides they want to wipe Palestine off the map and they can't defend themselves!!!" false equivalences will be abound. Weirdly enough if Israel wanted to do that they would've because they've had that possibility available for like fifty years.

If/when Palestine is a state how many hours do you think it will take before they attack Israel? Delivering them a state won't suddenly make them not want to continue Hitler's noble work.

 

[squeekness]

I think they'll get a few more concessions out of Trump before the break off talks entirely.

Whatever it takes for peace.

 

[Marvolo]

The question of whether or not Israel has the right to exist has been settled. Obviously it does and it's not going anywhere. The question now is, do the Palestinians have a right to a state? And if most Israelis and Israel supporters are honest, they would have to answer no. They have done everything to make sure that there will never be a Palestinian state.

Yeah their only hope is an American administration with enough backbone to deliver an ultimatum to Israel. Allow Palestine to exist or we stop sending you support, supplies, money, and weapons. Europe putting its foot down would also help. If they stubbornly refuse to bend to an ultimatum then we step back and let Israel flounder without allies.

 

[MagnarTheGreat]

NY Times - Justice Department and F.B.I. Are Investigating Cambridge Analytica

WASHINGTON — The Justice Department and the F.B.I. are investigating Cambridge Analytica, the now-defunct political data firm, and have sought to question former employees and banks that handled its business, according to an American official and other people familiar with the inquiry.

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/05/15/us/cambridge-analytica-federal-investigation.html

 

[DarthSkywalker]

Nothing - which is why I continually identify him as the biggest enemy not only to Palestinian agency but also Israel's ability to go back onto the world stage as a country people can support.



I know you're not deliberately misinterpreting what I said, but just to clarify I didn't make the argument that anyone should "allow Israel to murder people". What I was pointing out is the quirky double standard that when desperate Palestinians use lethal force and attempt to kill civilian Israelis they're freedom fighters, but when Jews did it to force the existence of a homeland so they'd be free from deadly persecution in Europe people clutch their pearls.

This single case is the only time I've seen people respond with "Yeah...but what about what the other side is doing" to the question of "Is firing RPGs into civilian neighborhoods acceptable". Attempted murder out of desperation is apparently acceptable as long as it isn't a Jew doing it.

Who defends Hamas? I can't think of many. The Israel state itself murders people all the time and then blame Hamas for the not Hamas people they murder all the time.

And what I find most disingenuous about this argument is the idea that they do this to avoid deadly persecution. That is just not true, at all. It is a legitimately bogus talking point to avoid what they are doing. That they can't be held responsible for what they do. When you describe it as pearl clutching when they tell their soldiers to murder civilians, how is that an okay thing, at all? How about Israel's determination to not allow Palestine to exist?

 

[DeadPresident]

Who defends Hamas? I can't think of many. The Israel state itself murders people all the time and then blame Hamas for the not Hamas people they murder all the time.

I don't see much condemnation for them. The Israeli state pursues and kills people who threaten its national security - like every nation state with significant enemies. Do I condone it? No, I don't. But, if I'm a citizen of a country I'd find it difficult to deny that I want my government to protect my life - which is by and large what Israel does. People often want to paint it as though Israel indiscriminately kills, which isn't true - if it was there would be no Palestinians left.

And what I find most disingenuous about this argument is the idea that they do this to avoid deadly persecution. That is just not true, at all. It is a legitimately bogus talking point to avoid what they are doing. That they can't be held responsible for what they do. When you describe it as pearl clutching when they tell their soldiers to murder civilians, how is that an okay thing, at all? How about Israel's determination to not allow Palestine to exist?

I'm not saying Israel does it to avoid deadly persecution now, but the reason they used violence to ensure the creation of the state was quite obviously to avoid deadly persecution. You could even argue they're as zero tolerance as they are because there is still the threat of deadly persecution for Israeli Jews. Iran and several other nations have explicitly, at a state level, expressed their wishes to eliminate Israel - surely that falls under the definition of "deadly persecution"?

"There's no way anybody would ever do that" is obviously the common refrain, and I don't blame Jews for skepticism because I'm sure once upon a time they believed nobody could ever cart them off by the hundreds of thousands and gas them while the global community twiddled its thumbs wondering if six million deaths were worth intervening over.

I didn't quote the historical trajectory to absolve Israel, I condemn their conduct towards Palestinians, I quoted that to contextualize why I can understand Jews would fight tooth and nail to protect their homeland. The Holocaust is so far away now it's used as a punchline, but considering how many descendants there are of Holocaust victims in Israel I can understand them defending themselves with excessive force, even if I don't condone it.

 

[Thundercrack85]

Nothing - which is why I continually identify him as the biggest enemy not only to Palestinian agency but also Israel's ability to go back onto the world stage as a country people can support.



I know you're not deliberately misinterpreting what I said, but just to clarify I didn't make the argument that anyone should "allow Israel to murder people". What I was pointing out is the quirky double standard that when desperate Palestinians use lethal force and attempt to kill civilian Israelis they're freedom fighters, but when Jews did it to force the existence of a homeland so they'd be free from deadly persecution in Europe people clutch their pearls.

This single case is the only time I've seen people respond with "Yeah...but what about what the other side is doing" to the question of "Is firing RPGs into civilian neighborhoods acceptable". Attempted murder out of desperation is apparently acceptable as long as it isn't a Jew doing it.



You mean except those multiple times when there were solutions put on the table and Palestinian authorities refused? On what grounds would you suggest you can say with some amount of certainty that most Israelis would want to deny Palestine statehood?

If (and I support it) Palestine becomes a state what's the international community going to do to ensure that the war doesn't just continue only now it's just on more even footing? The correct answer is to disarm them, but nobody will go for it because "What if Israel decides they want to wipe Palestine off the map and they can't defend themselves!!!" false equivalences will be abound. Weirdly enough if Israel wanted to do that they would've because they've had that possibility available for like fifty years.

If/when Palestine is a state how many hours do you think it will take before they attack Israel? Delivering them a state won't suddenly make them not want to continue Hitler's noble work.

Well they started building settlements in the 1960s... They haven't stopped since. It's a democracy. If they want a two-state solution it would materialize.

Israel is wiping Palestine off the map. They're just doing it subtly. One house at a time. Look at how the map has changed since 1967. Palestine is down to Ramallah and a handful of islands controlled and surrounded by Israeli military bases and walls.

What do you expect but anger and radicalism when everything is taken away from them? When they try to go to the international court, they're blocked by Israel.

 

[MagnarTheGreat]

Daily Mail - EXCLUSIVE: Michael Cohen 'asked Qatari investor for millions of dollars' which he said he would 'pass to Trump family members' at Trump Tower meeting - and Qatar's foreign minister was there too

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...llions-dollars-pass-Trump-family-members.html