F'dup Chapters in American History(The Trump Years) - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Part 25

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In the wake of a few heavily-reported & exceedingly-brutal incidents, at a conference where that was specifically the topic of discussion at the time he said it. :whatever:

Don't do that. You know it's wrong.

I thought it was a meeting for ICE to have a safe space about the criticism they get.
 
In the wake of a few heavily-reported & exceedingly-brutal incidents, at a conference where that was specifically the topic of discussion at the time he said it. :whatever:

Don't do that. You know it's wrong.

Haha, uh huh... The meeting was a roundtable discussion about immigration, crime, and sanctuary cities. Like most things that Trump says, it's wildly open to interpretation, because he does everything on the spot. Maybe he was talking about MS13 gang members... that's not what he said, but maybe it's what he meant. On the other hand, maybe he meant exactly what he said. I don't know.

I don't see any reason to give President Trump the benefit of the doubt though. It's not like this is a singular instance. This is just one of dozens of examples now of how he views Mexican immigrants. I have no reason to assume that Trump meant the best even though what he said was awful. You're the one putting words in his mouth.
 
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If he meant immigrants in general then that was an awful thing to say. As bad as what he said about Mexicans during his campaign. If he was referring to MS-13 then he was calling a duck a duck. Tho personally I think monster is a better descriptor than animal. Animals kill for survival and are innocent. MS-13 is off the Richter scale of evil. The media and the Right and to a lesser degree the far Left do love their boogeymen, but this is one time I honestly have to agree with them and say that MS-13 is one boogeyman I hope I never cross paths with. They predominantly target minors, women, and kids. They mutilate, torture, abuse, rape, and murder them. Most victims suffer multiple degredations and cruelties before being killed. They burn people alive. Run them over with cars. Chop off body parts. Gang rape women. Dispose of bodies. Engage in human trafficking. Recruit and indoctrinate kids and teens. Kill anyone that displeases them for even minor perceived slights. And that's just the crimes that are public knowledge. And their members of MS-13 usually commit crimes on their own aside from the crimes they commit for the gang. Its frankly terrifying, and a person has to be recklessly brave bordering on suicidal to coddle them or cross them.

Granted not everyone in MS-13's various "sects" across the world are equally evil, but sorting through MS-13 and successfully getting some to change their ways is a tall order. Not to mention hopelessly suicidal for anyone that tries to leave the gang. And extremely dangerous for anyone trying to get the person to leave the gang. MS-13 members shouldnt be shot on sight for simply being in MS-13, but I do think the government and people in general should approach and interact with MS-13 as if they were dealing with a rabid lion. An extremely intelligent sentient rabid lion.
 
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It is far, far different when that rhetoric is on the actual White House web page. But hey, remember, Nazis are "some good people" while kneeling football players are "sons of *****es".

And in Cohen news, a sometime business partner of his went from facing up to a hundred years in prison for tax fraud and grand larceny, to not serving jail time. So, he gave up something good.

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/05/22/nyregion/michael-cohen-trump-taxi-cooperation.html
 
I thought the "conference" was a roundtable discussion with local California gov't about sanctuary cities, not specifically Mexican gangs but regardless.


I think that, for a lot of people, this:


“We have people coming into the country or trying to come in, we're stopping a lot of them, but we're taking people out of the country. You wouldn't believe how bad these people are," Trump said.
"These aren't people. These are animals."



Sounds a lot like this:
"When Mexico sends its people, they're not sending their best."

"They're bringing drugs. They're bringing crime. They're rapists."


I personally can't understand how anyone can defend anything that comes out of the current POTUS' mouth. At this point he could say "the sky is blue" and I'd be sure to double check and look up because I don't believe a dang thing the s.o.b. says.
 
I thought it was a meeting for ICE to have a safe space about the criticism they get.


That is how you'd read anything to do with ICE, yup. Not unexpected.

Mace, the context in which he said it within this meeting was when MS-13 was on the cards. Is what I said, not that that the conference didn't engage in any other immigration topics. But he dropped the "animal" line when what he was talking about beforehand and afterward was MS-13, there's just no escaping that. He's talking about tatted-up murder-rapists without a green card, not Miguel from Mexico City who snuck his pregnant wife across the border to run a small business and make a life.
 
ICE, who literally makes up gang tattoos trying to get people deported. That ICE?
 
Yeah. Yeah, I'm suggesting the federal government isn't involved in a conspiracy to take a bunch of identical ink markings on various criminals caught, make up that they're part of a gang out of nowhere, and send them back to Guatemala or whatever.

Yeah. Call me old-fashioned.

Nah, notorious gangs don't tattoo their members mandatorily or anything, nah. That's a fiction. The feds aren't aware of what's a gang tattoo and what isn't, they don't have experts in this field, nah. It's a huge Trump-acolyte conspiracy to weed out the troublesome brown people, that's the more likely situation here. :whatever:
 
Yeah. Yeah, I'm suggesting the federal government isn't involved in a conspiracy to take a bunch of identical ink markings on various criminals caught, make up that they're part of a gang out of nowhere, and send them back to Guatemala or whatever.

Yeah. Call me old-fashioned.

Nah, notorious gangs don't tattoo their members mandatorily or anything, nah. That's a fiction. The feds aren't aware of what's a gang tattoo and what isn't, they don't have experts in this field, nah. It's a huge Trump-acolyte conspiracy to weed out the troublesome brown people, that's the more likely situation here. :whatever:
It is always pesky when the facts get in the way:

https://slate.com/news-and-politics...o-prove-that-dreamer-was-gang-affiliated.html

Yet ICE continued to press its case against Ramirez. In immigration court, agents rested their case on one piece of evidence: a tattoo on Ramirez’s forearm that consists of a nautical star and the words La Paz—BCS, which represent his birthplace, the city of La Paz in Baja California Sur. Ramirez repeatedly insisted that this tattoo had nothing to do with any gang. But an ICE agent claimed that his tattoo actually proved he was “definitely a gang member” because it allegedly looked like the tattoo of the “bulldogs” gang. (It does not.)

Two different immigration judges found no indication that Ramirez was gang affiliated or a threat to public safety. Martin Flores, a gang expert who has consulted in more than 700 cases, testified that he had “never seen a gang member with a similar tattoo nor would [he] attribute this tattoo to have any gang-related meaning.” Another gang expert, Edwina Barvosa, declared that there is “no apparent evidence that [Ramirez] has ever been a gang member himself.” Carlos García, a Mexican researcher who has studied gangs extensively, stated that “this tattoo does not show any gang affiliation.” But ICE still insisted that Ramirez was a gang member, and thus eligible for deportation.

Martinez, a George W. Bush appointee, was plainly incensed by the agency’s lies. ICE’s “conclusory findings,” he wrote, have “been contradicted by experts and other evidence.” The government “produced no evidence” to contradict multiple experts’ testimony discrediting ICE’s bizarre interpretation of Ramirez’s tattoo. And its claims are “completely contradictory to the government’s own previous findings after extensive background checks that were meant to uncover evidence of ‘known or suspected gang association.’ ”

“Most troubling to the Court,” Martinez continued, “is the continued assertion that Mr. Ramirez is gang-affiliated, despite providing no evidence specific to Mr. Ramirez to the Immigration Court in connection with his administrative proceedings, and offering no evidence to this Court to support its assertions four months later.”

Martinez concluded that ICE had violated Ramirez’s rights by depriving him of “his constitutionally protected liberty and property interests without due process of law.” The judge also found that ICE had violated federal law by stripping Ramirez of his DACA status in an “arbitrary and capricious” manner without any “rational explanation for its decision.” Accordingly, he barred the government from terminating Ramirez’s DACA benefits, shielding his right to continue living and working in the U.S. And he prohibited the government from “asserting, adopting, or relying in any proceedings on any statement or record … purporting to allege or establish that Mr. Ramirez is a gang member, gang affiliated, or a threat to public safety.” In other words, he ordered ICE to stop lying.

This decision marks the second time in recent weeks that a court has found that immigration agents have made misrepresentations to a court. In early May, a New Hampshire judge held that Customs and Border Protection officers had lied about a dragnet it set up in the state, claiming that it was designed to catch undocumented immigrants when it was really meant to catch drug users. Now a federal judge has ruled that ICE essentially slandered a young Dreamer to concoct the pretext necessary to deport him. There will be likely be no consequences for individual ICE agents given their broad immunity from lawsuits. But the courts, it seems, are starting to catch wise: Trump’s immigration forces, much like Trump himself, simply cannot be trusted.

They made up he had a tattoo he clearly didn't have, lying repeatedly. Twice in recent weeks they have been found to be lying to try and deport people in court. So, you were saying?
 
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An individual example! Well, that must be the rule and not the exception! Good to know.
 
Is your argument that ICE enforcement, more then one person mind you, completely lying repeatedly to get someone deported is just a one off example that should be ignored? Oh, that is bad. And they lie, all the time.

https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo...e-of-misleading-facts-to-discuss-calif-arrest

James Schwab has resigned from his job as a Department of Homeland Security spokesman, saying he didn't agree with Trump administration officials' use of "misleading facts" to attack Oakland Mayor Libby Schaaf after the mayor issued a warning about an immigration sweep in late February.

"I quit because I didn't want to perpetuate misleading facts," Schwab told the San Francisco Chronicle. "I asked them to change the information. I told them that the information was wrong, they asked me to deflect, and I didn't agree with that. Then I took some time and I quit."

https://www.immigrantjustice.org/research-items/report-ice-lies-public-deception-private-profit
 
I'm saying ICE as a matter of policy isn't out there in a widespread sense pointing to guys with random meaningless tattoos, designating them as a member of a federally-recognized criminal organization, and sending them home.

If an agent or two have done it and it's provable, great, they need to be removed from their positions. But ICE as an organization isn't out there doing this as a matter of policy, that's just ****ing extemist tinfoil hat stuff at a certain point.
 
That's a bit like saying american cops dont have a policy to shoot first ask questions later, but the reality is that American cops do that all too often because of the broken and extremely flawed system. And dont even get me started on stupid local law enforcement that harasses people because they are bored. Some of my friends that I ran with back in the day were accused of being in a gang 5 years ago just because they were young, looked "up to no good" and were regularly congregating in a public area. To further the stupidity of it all, they arent even part of a gang so when they were accused they just made up a gang name on the spot when the cop asked them and the cop believed them.

There is so much ignorance, racism, misinformation, and lack of adequate training in American Law Enforcement that what is or isnt policy doesnt really matter as much as the whims of the individual officer.
 
I'm saying ICE as a matter of policy isn't out there in a widespread sense pointing to guys with random meaningless tattoos, designating them as a member of a federally-recognized criminal organization, and sending them home.

If an agent or two have done it and it's provable, great, they need to be removed from their positions. But ICE as an organization isn't out there doing this as a matter of policy, that's just ****ing extemist tinfoil hat stuff at a certain point.
They literally tried that. And what, you think one agent handled that entire case, including the part in front of the judge? ICE agents are also trial attorneys now?
 
I think it is pretty clear what type of person is attracted to ICE. Not the whole organization, sure. But enough that I think it really needs to be examined.
 
I'm saying ICE as a matter of policy isn't out there in a widespread sense pointing to guys with random meaningless tattoos, designating them as a member of a federally-recognized criminal organization, and sending them home.

If an agent or two have done it and it's provable, great, they need to be removed from their positions. But ICE as an organization isn't out there doing this as a matter of policy, that's just ****ing extemist tinfoil hat stuff at a certain point.

I have never seen someone so spectacularly lose an argument through verifiable facts presented and then continue to dig their heels in that the facts aren't the facts.

Kudos to you Ax, it takes real dedication to do the type of mental gymnastics you display good sir/madam.
 
How do you figure? The assertion was that a couple of examples of it doesn't mean it's instituional, widespread and coming from on-high.

Trying to say the feds are as a matter of policy inventing gang tattoos in order to arbitrarily deport people because they're brown is completely goddamn insane.
 
Mace, the context in which he said it within this meeting was when MS-13 was on the cards. Is what I said, not that that the conference didn't engage in any other immigration topics. But he dropped the "animal" line when what he was talking about beforehand and afterward was MS-13, there's just no escaping that. He's talking about tatted-up murder-rapists without a green card, not Miguel from Mexico City who snuck his pregnant wife across the border to run a small business and make a life.

I gave you the quote, which showed what he was referencing. There's just no escaping that. Can you provide additional context that proves your point?

You insulted me by saying that I was making a purposely dishonest argument by interpreting Trump's comments in the way that I did. Do you have anything besides your own subjective interpretation to make that argument? Because it seems like you're guessing as much as me. The only difference is you want to give the President the benefit of the doubt. I don't see any reason to do that. His quote is clear enough to me. How can you say it's not a Freudian slip? You can't.
 
How do you figure? The assertion was that a couple of examples of it doesn't mean it's instituional, widespread and coming from on-high.

Trying to say the feds are as a matter of policy inventing gang tattoos in order to arbitrarily deport people because they're brown is completely goddamn insane.

It was just mentioned that it doesn't have to be in the guidebook to be policy. Police officers have a policy of shooting first and asking questions second when in danger.. for example.

Now, is that actual policy? Nope. Does every cop act that way? Nope. Is it the unspoken protocol. Yes sir. Your argument is essentially the equivalent of saying, "the police don't have a racial profiling problem because racial profiling isn't a part of their department policies." Clearly.. there are cultural norms that aren't written down that can be just as dangerous.

People are giving you the answer. You just refuse to accept it.
 
An individual example! Well, that must be the rule and not the exception! Good to know.


It doesn't matter if it was an isolated incident or the part of a trend. It still displays a disturbing lack of ethics on the part of the good guys.
 
I gave you the quote, which showed what he was referencing. There's just no escaping that. Can you provide additional context that proves your point?

You insulted me by saying that I was making a purposely dishonest argument by interpreting Trump's comments in the way that I did. Do you have anything besides your own subjective interpretation to make that argument? Because it seems like you're guessing as much as me. The only difference is you want to give the President the benefit of the doubt. I don't see any reason to do that. His quote is clear enough to me. How can you say it's not a Freudian slip? You can't.
He does this a lot. Insults others, acts like they are being crazy, while he ignores all context and evidence.
 
I've noticed. This world is filled with so-called "reluctant" conservatives who pretend to be reasonable while carrying water for our unreasonable president. Unfortunately, you can't have it both ways. You can't pretend to be a compassionate conservative and justify our president's racist rhetoric or his unproven tax policies... at least not while I'm in the same room. You want to take a ride on the crazy bus... fine, but don't pretend like it's our fault for not getting on the ride with you.
 
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