F'dup Chapters in American History(The Trump Years) - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Part 25

[Sithborg]

I think there would be something lost if we lost the civillian run military. There have been enough recently retired generals in Trump's staff to make some side eye it.

 

[MagnarTheGreat]

CNN - Roger Stone's finances examined by special counsel

Special counsel Robert Mueller's team has been probing Roger Stone's finances as it summons a series of witnesses to gather more information about one of President Donald Trump's longtime advisers, according to people familiar with the situation.

Mueller's team has questioned associates about Stone's finances, including his tax returns.

The special counsel recently subpoenaed John P. Kakanis, who has worked as Stone's assistant and has insight into some of Stone's business deals, according to a person familiar with the situation. Reuters first reported on the subpoena.

https://www.cnn.com/2018/05/24/poli...unsel-mueller-russia-investigation/index.html

 

[DJ_KiDDvIcIOUs]

Two-second google definition:

U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement is a U.S. federal government law enforcement agency under the jurisdiction of the Department of Homeland Security.


You were saying, Cap'n Smug?

Of course they're the ****ing Feds. They answer to DHS. Subject to all the same rules and oversight as any other government agency, let's stop acting like this is a bunch of brown-shirts out rounding people up for kicks.

Nice try there Champ, but you've selected one portion of my statement to refute a pint I didn't make. Again, you're obfuscating.

You're the ones that used the term "feds" as if ICE is handled on the same federal level as the FBI/etc.

Answer me this Buckaroo, you know what other federal agents deal almost exclusively with illegal immigrants? Border Patrol. Yet you rarely hear stories of their conduct being called out by national media organizations in regards to racist/biased practices. Super weird right?

Must be one of those cowinkydinks huh Buddy?

Yeah champ, it's all been one-way. NK hasn't been blustering all week personally insulting the Secretary Of State and the Vice President or anything.

That's not to say Trump should have cancelled it (even temporarily), but I can sort of see the logic. It's a bit of a slap on the wrist, delivering on the "I'm willing to walk away if we don't think you're serious on this" stuff. Risky, but ehh, Kim might come around. So long as it's not a "we're not going to meet with you at all, diplomacy done" (which it's not), could prove marginally fruitful.

Listen up Sport, when you literally hold all of the power in a negotiation a smart person lets the other side that literally only has "bark" to use as their bargaining chip to go ahead and use it if their willing to sit down at the table to get the deal made for the betterment of all parties.

One could almost say, their is some type of art behind making such deals.

It's not defending Trump per se, man, I didn't vote for the guy. And disagree with this move on the summit about 80%. Just think it's fair to acknowledge the letter was pretty civil compared to the usual Trumpisms, he says he hopes they can work it out and meet in future, thanks him for releasing the hostages, and highlights how he wants to avoid any deterioration into conflict.

This wasn't a big "**** you, no deal will be done", people can disagree with the move and still see that. For all we know they'll reschedule for August or September or something, everyone'll keep their polite faces on next time around and it'll happen.

Might not, too, sure. But it's not like the door's been closed off.

This is by far my favorite argument you and your ilk constantly make.

So Hotshot, what makes you feel the need to come to this thread and make excuses for our dear leader Trump? Why do you always seem to have a poorly thought out argument (usually only addressing one small portion of another poster's post eg see my first quote here) while also feeling necessary to explain that you didn't vote for him?

You also have a tendency to ghost out on the discussion when others provide sources yet you rarely seem to be able to find any for yourself, Sunshine?

This is why only those that have served in the military should be a requirement for higher office that oversees military functions.

I can certainly get behind this or a requirement to have served at a certain level of government services for a minimum amount of years.

We have had 2 consecutive Presidencies with almost no real experience. I voted for Obama and even I can admit he made a lot of rookie mistakes and poor decisions his first term that a more seasoned statesman would likely not have.

Seems odd that POTUS is pretty much the only job in the country that you can get hired by a popularity contest without any actual qualifications.

 

[chaseter]

Changing the constitution to require military service if you want to hold a public office that oversees military functions is a terrible, ill thought out idea. All adult citizens have, and should have the same rights regardless of whether they have served in the military; including the right to serve in any public office if they choose to run or are appointed. Military service in and of itself does not make one more qualified for this type of office. Restricting these rights needs to be done with extreme care (there are certain qualifications you need to meet to be President for example). Supposing that someone doesn't qualify for service in the military. You would exclude them from certain public service positions based on a handicap? Good luck with that idea. LOL. That's just one obvious example. There are plenty of others.

I have a better idea. If someone doesn't believe in free speech, press, and expression, maybe THEY shouldn't be in this country.

You don’t have to amend the constitution to get better groomed candidates. The only two parties that ever win could institute that rule. Was it constitutional for the DNC to pick Clinton? You shouldn’t have the power to send people to their death for this country without having military experience. You think Trump, Obama, W Bush (his service lol) or Clinton value military lives? No.

European countries that liberals idolize have mandatory service. I’m not against that. You get a better rounded candidate and no one is going to be able to form a cohesive argument against that. Tell me the negatives of having military experience...

 

[chaseter]

I can certainly get behind this or a requirement to have served at a certain level of government services for a minimum amount of years.

We have had 2 consecutive Presidencies with almost no real experience. I voted for Obama and even I can admit he made a lot of rookie mistakes and poor decisions his first term that a more seasoned statesman would likely not have.

Seems odd that POTUS is pretty much the only job in the country that you can get hired by a popularity contest without any actual qualifications.

I would also be for public service requirements as well. You need to know how the government runs before you run it.

 

[redhawk23]

You don’t have to amend the constitution to get better groomed candidates. The only two parties that ever win could institute that rule. Was it constitutional for the DNC to pick Clinton? You shouldn’t have the power to send people to their death for this country without having military experience. You think Trump, Obama, W Bush (his service lol) or Clinton value military lives? No.

European countries that liberals idolize have mandatory service. I’m not against that. You get a better rounded candidate and no one is going to be able to form a cohesive argument against that. Tell me the negatives of having military experience...

Counter point: People with military careers tend to favor the military as a solution to any given problem.

The generations that fought world wars I and 2 did not not hesitate to continue sending tens of thousands of soldiers to their deaths for the decades that they were in power. In fact, those with world war experience had insanely skewed views of acceptable losses and drew up nuclear war plans that just assumed millions lost at a time.

 

[chaseter]

Our involvement in WW1 and 2 was 100% necessary. I would say a good counterpoint against myself would be Vietnam as LBJ was a serviceman.

 

[Sithborg]

I think his point was that the WWI and WWII servicemen sent more into Korea and Vietnam.

 

[Aximili86]

You're the ones that used the term "feds" as if ICE is handled on the same federal level as the FBI/etc.

Err, they are. Let's drop the smartass remarks for a second and look at the facts. ICE is a federal agency the exact same way the FBI is. They answer to DHS, the FBI answers to DOJ. Clearly different chains of commands, but this "ICE aren't the feds" stuff is nuts.

Listen up Sport, when you literally hold all of the power in a negotiation a smart person lets the other side that literally only has "bark" to use as their bargaining chip to go ahead and use it if their willing to sit down at the table to get the deal made for the betterment of all partiesP

Of course we hold all the power in this equation though, who'd think any different? We're the sole major superpower, they're the hermit kingdom who can't master basic agriculture.

What does that have to do with anything? That doesn't absolve them of any responsibility.

So Hotshot, what makes you feel the need to come to this thread and make excuses for our dear leader Trump?

Because they're not excuses? Like I said, I don't agree with canning this date for the summit. But life is complex, it's not all-or-nothing. It could still happen, it probably will, just not on the original date planned. Delayed talks happen all the time in diplomacy, whether it was the US/Soviets, NATO/Soviets, the middle east, it's common.

It's probably not the greatest move, acknowledged. But the language was basically polite & civil, it left a big gaping window open to resolve the differences, and was even complimentary toward the slave-master tyrannical tyrant for letting go our people and at least seeming open to talking.

You can disagree with a guy's move and still be fair on the context and complexities. This is something you don't seem to grasp, everything's a complete zero-sum with people like you. Time to grow up a little.


EDIT: Worth noting that NK officials have been very conciliatory and open in the wake of this, too. No bombastic remarks, threats, insults, basically saying they're open to continued further talks and likewise hope it happens.

But yeah, diplomacy done, I guess. Trump, you wascally wabbit! Warmonger.

 

[redhawk23]

Our involvement in WW1 and 2 was 100% necessary. I would say a good counterpoint against myself would be Vietnam as LBJ was a serviceman.

That's exactly what I'm saying. We rarely have had generations with higher rates of military service and where they went came into political power they entered into conflicts Willy nilly nilly and had extremely skewed views of acceptable losses. The idea that thideb with military experience value the lives of troops more and will be less trigger happy just doesn't pan out.

I think his point was that the WWI and WWII servicemen sent more into Korea and Vietnam.

Exactly.

 

[Doug_Moore]

North Korea will come back to the table. They've already dismantled tunnels. This is all just theater.

You called it.

https://www.axios.com/north-korea-well-meet-at-any-time-with-trump-a2c04783-dec3-4615-9ad2-d931965b5e78.html?utm_source=twitter&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=organic

You know Libya, where the leader was depose and killed and we've left it wide open as a failed state ever since.

Thanks, Obama!

 

[DJ_KiDDvIcIOUs]

Err, they are. Let's drop the smartass remarks for a second and look at the facts. ICE is a federal agency the exact same way the FBI is. They answer to DHS, the FBI answers to DOJ. Clearly different chains of commands, but this "ICE aren't the feds" stuff is nuts.

The DHS and Dept of Agriculture are also federal agents, neither of them have had rampant headlines of racial bias towards brown people in the past few years. In fact, ICE is the only Federal agency that keeps popping up in the news several times a month for abuses of power relating to racial bias.

Why do you think that is? If this was a problem across all federal agents one would think we would see similar complaints on multiple agencies right?

Of course we hold all the power in this equation though, who'd think any different? We're the sole major superpower, they're the hermit kingdom who can't master basic agriculture.

What does that have to do with anything? That doesn't absolve them of any responsibility.

Let's use an anology you may be able to understand. Let's say you're a parent and you have a child throwing a temper tantrum. Just because you can is it okay to beat the child as you would an adult attacker? How about teaching the child a lesson by leaving it at the store so they can find their own way home to learn a lesson?


Or, and call me crazy if you want, does it seem more prudent to be the voice of reason with the child letting them vent or do whatever they need to while firmly having them understand that behavior is unacceptable and if they want to play with the big boys then they have to follow the rules?

Because they're not excuses? Like I said, I don't agree with canning this date for the summit. But life is complex, it's not all-or-nothing. It could still happen, it probably will, just not on the original date planned. Delayed talks happen all the time in diplomacy, whether it was the US/Soviets, NATO/Soviets, the middle east, it's common.

It's probably not the greatest move, acknowledged. But the language was basically polite & civil, it left a big gaping window open to resolve the differences, and was even complimentary toward the slave-master tyrannical tyrant for letting go our people and at least seeming open to talking.

You can disagree with a guy's move and still be fair on the context and complexities. This is something you don't seem to grasp, everything's a complete zero-sum with people like you. Time to grow up a little.


EDIT: Worth noting that NK officials have been very conciliatory and open in the wake of this, too. No bombastic remarks, threats, insults, basically saying they're open to continued further talks and likewise hope it happens.

But yeah, diplomacy done, I guess. Trump, you wascally wabbit! Warmonger.

Now we can agree on most of this, international relations is a complicated subject with far-reaching consequences for affects almost no one can predict at times. From what I've read, the NK were not responding to or holding the pre-meetings that were supposed to lead up to the summit.

Def not right on their end but I refer you back to the above analogy.

 

[redhawk23]

You called it.

https://www.axios.com/north-korea-well-meet-at-any-time-with-trump-a2c04783-dec3-4615-9ad2-d931965b5e78.html?utm_source=twitter&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=organic



Thanks, Obama!

Yeah the Libya situation is terrible, which is why brininging it up in interviews about your intent for North Korea is asinine unless you just were not actually interested in having the summit to begin with.

 

[Sithborg]

So about that great idea of separating kids from their parents when they illegally enter the US...

https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/frontline/...st-track-of-nearly-1500-unaccompanied-minors/

Seems like a bad idea.

 

[chaseter]

That's exactly what I'm saying. We rarely have had generations with higher rates of military service and where they went came into political power they entered into conflicts Willy nilly nilly and had extremely skewed views of acceptable losses. The idea that thideb with military experience value the lives of troops more and will be less trigger happy just doesn't pan out.

I believe it does...and at the very least gives perspective. Now not everyone in the military is a great military leader. LBJ was not a great military leader. A civilian will never be a great military leader regardless. It’s like any position...experience is a plus but is never a guarantee for success. I would rather have people with experience in government leading the government...with military leading the military...with finance submitting budgets...etc etc.

 

[Limonade]

Nice try there Champ, but you've selected one portion of my statement to refute a pint I didn't make. Again, you're obfuscating.

You're the ones that used the term "feds" as if ICE is handled on the same federal level as the FBI/etc.

Answer me this Buckaroo, you know what other federal agents deal almost exclusively with illegal immigrants? Border Patrol. Yet you rarely hear stories of their conduct being called out by national media organizations in regards to racist/biased practices. Super weird right?

Must be one of those cowinkydinks huh Buddy?



Listen up Sport, when you literally hold all of the power in a negotiation a smart person lets the other side that literally only has "bark" to use as their bargaining chip to go ahead and use it if their willing to sit down at the table to get the deal made for the betterment of all parties.

One could almost say, their is some type of art behind making such deals.



This is by far my favorite argument you and your ilk constantly make.

So Hotshot, what makes you feel the need to come to this thread and make excuses for our dear leader Trump? Why do you always seem to have a poorly thought out argument (usually only addressing one small portion of another poster's post eg see my first quote here) while also feeling necessary to explain that you didn't vote for him?

You also have a tendency to ghost out on the discussion when others provide sources yet you rarely seem to be able to find any for yourself, Sunshine?



I can certainly get behind this or a requirement to have served at a certain level of government services for a minimum amount of years.

We have had 2 consecutive Presidencies with almost no real experience. I voted for Obama and even I can admit he made a lot of rookie mistakes and poor decisions his first term that a more seasoned statesman would likely not have.

Seems odd that POTUS is pretty much the only job in the country that you can get hired by a popularity contest without any actual qualifications.

Yeah, I've always felt uncomfortable with that. Qualifications is a must, for me. Also, maybe taking an exam should be involved as well.

 

[MaceB]

It's up to the candidates to make military experience a voting issue. I wouldn't codify the necessity into law though. Civilian control of the military is also important.

 

[Sithborg]

Can we go back to the fact that HHS lost 1500 migrant kids. And how others may have been handed over to human traffickers?

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/04/26/us/politics/migrant-children-missing.html

 

[Doug_Moore]

Throw these summit coins on top of the pile of Trump stakes and other worthless crap he's slapped his name on.

You spoke too soon.

 

[Sithborg]

**** ICE and CBP...

http://thehill.com/homenews/news/389407-aclu-border-agents-physically-abused-migrant-children

 

[Schlosser85]

How utterly unsurprising is that?

 

[MagnarTheGreat]

Yahoo! News - 'Trump's son should be concerned': FBI obtained wiretaps of Putin ally who met with Trump Jr.

The FBI has obtained secret wiretaps collected by Spanish police of conversations involving Alexander Torshin, a deputy governor of Russia’s Central Bank who has forged close ties with U.S. lawmakers and the National Rifle Association, that led to a meeting with Donald Trump Jr. during the gun lobby’s annual convention in Louisville, Ky., in May 2016, a top Spanish prosecutor said Friday.

José Grinda, who has spearheaded investigations into Spanish organized crime, said that bureau officials in recent months requested and were provided transcripts of wiretapped conversations between Torshin and Alexander Romanov, a convicted Russian money launderer. On the wiretaps, Romanov refers to Torshin as “El Padrino,” the godfather.

“Just a few months ago, the wiretaps of these telephone conversations were given to the FBI,” Grinda said in response to a question from Yahoo News during a talk he gave at the Hudson Institute, a conservative think tank in Washington. Asked if he was concerned about Torshin’s meetings with Donald Trump Jr. and other American political figures, Grinda replied: “Mr. Trump’s son should be concerned.”

The comments by Grinda were the first clear sign that the FBI may be investigating Torshin, possibly as a part of special counsel Robert Mueller’s probe into Russian interference in the 2016 U.S. presidential election. Torshin — a close political ally of Vladimir Putin — had multiple contacts with conservative activists in the United States during the election, seeking to set up a summit between the Russian president and then candidate Trump. Although the summit never transpired, Torshin did meet briefly with the president’s son at a private dinner in Louisville during the May 2016 annual convention of the NRA. A member of the NRA since 2012, Torshin has been a regular attendee of the group’s conventions in recent years and hosted senior members of the group in Moscow.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/trumps-son-concerned-wiretaps-show-trump-jr-met-putin-ally-231215529.html

 

[Schlosser85]

Who would ever think for two seconds that migrant children are in safe or trustworthy hands with ICE?

That’s like trusting a fox to take care of your chickens and then being surprised when it eats them.

Also Betsy DeVos is encouraging schools to turn over undocumented children.

Because nothing says Jesus like painting targets on children’s backs.

Betsy needs to actually read her Bible instead of bragging about it to the rest of us.

But of course she’s actually only interested in reading her bank statements.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

About the DeVos situation is, it is illegal to deny a child education, no matter their immigration status. This is an attempt to go around that, while scaring families from sending their children to school.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

Can we go back to the fact that HHS lost 1500 migrant kids. And how others may have been handed over to human traffickers?

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/04/26/us/politics/migrant-children-missing.html

**** ICE and CBP...

http://thehill.com/homenews/news/389407-aclu-border-agents-physically-abused-migrant-children

This entire operation is straight up evil.