F'dup Chapters in American History(The Trump Years) - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Part 29

[MagnarTheGreat]

 

[Sithborg]

Guess that's why Graham doesn't want to hear from Mueller publicly.

 

[Man in the Suit]

 

[samsnee]

I’m shocked, shocked, that they lied to us.

 

[MagnarTheGreat]

 

[MagnarTheGreat]

The Hill - Trump trashes his own administration's infrastructure plan as 'stupid'

 

[MaceB]

Once again... you're basically

And who judges it a win for the left? You? Like I said, you want us to be a monolith. To vote without thought. Just do what they tell us... like the right.

Moderates have bee disenfranchising people for quite awhile now, because these are the people who go with the way the wind is blowing, but only far enough to act like they are appeasing their voters. Not to actually help them. Their real concern is the consolidation of power and their own benefits. Hence why like Republicans their real concern is the rich.

No I don't. You can vote for whoever you want. But I'm sorry... based on what I know about your politics, it seems like a moderate candidate win would be much more appealing to you than a Republican candidate win, no?. This is not a zero sum game. There are degrees. And while you don't like moderates and I can appreciate that... it's silly to equate them to Republicans. Give me a Democratic moderate congress over a Republican congress any day of the week.

Republicans disenfranchise people. Moderates go along with it.... some of the time. Republicans real concern is the consolidation of power. You're basically refusing to make a distinction, and that's exactly what I'm talking about.

Doing that is short sighted, hyperbolic, and risky. Trying to destroy Democratic candidates instead of supporting the liberal ones you favor is not helpful, if you are hoping for progressive change. At least, it hasn't been yet. I guess this time could be different. Seems highly risky to me... especially once we get into election season.

Whatever dude. I appreciate your values... I just don't appreciate your methods on how to get there. I think you are working with a compass when we need a map. It's cool that you're going North... you're going the right way... but if you aren't careful, you're could get stuck in some bad areas, because you're pushing ahead, regardless of terrain. That's my opinion of it. I want the same things you want... I think... but I don't think there's only one way to get there, and I think the way you are suggesting is a go-for-broke strategy without a plan b. I think that's risky, and I'd rather wait and see personally.

 

[Sithborg]

The only one destroying Biden is Biden. Nothing that has happened is something the couldn't have recovered from. But he responded in the worse possible way.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

Once again... you're basically


No I don't. You can vote for whoever you want. But I'm sorry... based on what I know about your politics, it seems like a moderate candidate win would be much more appealing to you than a Republican candidate win, no?. This is not a zero sum game. There are degrees. And while you don't like moderates and I can appreciate that... it's silly to equate them to Republicans. Give me a Democratic moderate congress over a Republican congress any day of the week.

Republicans disenfranchise people. Moderates go along with it.... some of the time. Republicans real concern is the consolidation of power. You're basically refusing to make a distinction, and that's exactly what I'm talking about.

Doing that is short sighted, hyperbolic, and risky. Trying to destroy Democratic candidates instead of supporting the liberal ones you favor is not helpful, if you are hoping for progressive change. At least, it hasn't been yet. I guess this time could be dangerous. Seems highly risky to me... especially once we get into election season.

Whatever dude. I appreciate your values... I just don't appreciate your methods on how to get there. I think you are working with a compass when we need a map. It's cool that you're going North... you're going the right way... but if you aren't careful, you're could get stuck in some bad areas, because you're pushing ahead, regardless of strategy. That's my opinion of it. I want the same things you want... I think... but I don't think there's only one way to get there, and I think the way you are suggesting is a go-for-broke strategy without a plan b. I think that's risky, and I'd rather wait and see personally.

By concentrating on my vote, you are missing the point entirely. The idea that whatever candidate the party spits out is going to win isn't true. Especially the farther to the right they are. And the idea that yelling at people who want actual change that they need to just deal with it, compromise, and they literally see the world falling apart, is not going to work. It is going to lead to the same apathy from 2016. Especially as you try to gaslight people and tell them they aren't allowed to talk about aspects of candidates because it some sort of own goal. That's ridiculous. The entire point of the primary is to pick the best candidate, and any attempt to rig it by just avoiding who the candidates are before the general hurts the party.

How much money do "moderates" get from lobbying? Speeches? Appearances? How many people responsible for the crash are in jail? How many reasonable for the BS that put us in Iraq are in prison? How many moderates voted for a torturer to be the head of the CIA? She wouldn't have been confirmed without the Democratic votes.

 

[MagnarTheGreat]

Just Security - Barr’s Playbook: He Misled Congress When Omitting Parts of Justice Dep’t Memo in 1989

Just Security is based at the Reiss Center on Law and Security at New York University School of Law.

 

[MaceB]

By concentrating on my vote, you are missing the point entirely. The idea that whatever candidate the party spits out is going to win isn't true. Especially the farther to the right they are. And the idea that yelling at people who want actual change that they need to just deal with it, compromise, and they literally see the world falling apart, is not going to work. It is going to lead to the same apathy from 2016. Especially as you try to gaslight people and tell them they aren't allowed to talk about aspects of candidates because it some sort of own goal. That's ridiculous. The entire point of the primary is to pick the best candidate, and any attempt to rig it by just avoiding who the candidates are before the general hurts the party.

How much money do "moderates" get from lobbying? Speeches? Appearances? How many people responsible for the crash are in jail? How many reasonable for the BS that put us in Iraq are in prison? How many moderates voted for a torturer to be the head of the CIA? She wouldn't have been confirmed without the Democratic votes.

I mean look... I don't want to yell at anybody. I'm glad that you like Sanders. I like Sanders. I mean.. I hope he wins honestly. What a trip that would be. And it's possible... the pendulum swings back and forth, and since Trump is a wide swing to the right, it's possible that the country is poised to go far to the left.

And I know how it feels. I know it sucks, because this argument is shoved in our faces every single election. Be safe. Don't be selfish. It feels like blackmail. So I don't want to do that... but I can't deny that I'm scared. It seems that you're scared of a repeat and so am I. You - that the DNC will screw us again; me - that millennials won't be engaged enough to vote if the primaries don't go their way. I think both of those worries can be warranted at the same time.

Further than that, you kinda say, "well, support a progressive, and the millennials will be engaged." And I agree with that. I just want to cover our bases. If a progressive isn't chosen, then I hope there's no shenanigans on the DNC's part... and if there's no evidence of such, then I hope millennials (which I am one by the way) will be able to support the moderate candidate. This is still a center to center right country in a lot of ways... it could easily happen that Biden pulls ahead, without any evidence of anything untoward by the DNC.

In my view, we have a lot of candidates yes... but we're lucky... they're almost all acceptable in my view. Because yes - this election is a referendum on Trump. Beating Trump and saving the Supreme Court should be winning issues in and of themselves... and I honestly think that's the way we should go. In my view... I'm sorry to say... this is a party first kinda vote election season. I'm gonna vote for the person who wins the primary... bottom line. And I hope people can keep that in mind... to keep our eye on what the real goal is here.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

The only one destroying Biden is Biden. Nothing that has happened is something the couldn't have recovered from. But he responded in the worse possible way.

This is Joe Biden in 2019. He won't even apologize to Hill.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

I mean look... I don't want to yell at anybody. I'm glad that you like Sanders. I like Sanders. I mean.. I hope he wins honestly. What a trip that would be. And it's possible... the pendulum swings back and forth, and since Trump is a wide swing to the right, it's possible that the country is poised to go far to the left.

And I know how it feels. I know it sucks, because this argument is shoved in our faces every single election. Be safe. Don't be selfish. It feels like blackmail. So I don't want to do that... but I can't deny that I'm scared. It seems that you're scared of a repeat and so am I. You - that the DNC will screw us again; me - that millennials won't be engaged enough to vote if the primaries don't go their way. I think both of those worries can be warranted at the same time.

Further than that, you kinda say, "well, support a progressive, and the millennials will be engaged." And I agree with that. I just want to cover our bases. If a progressive isn't chosen, then I hope there's no shenanigans on the DNC's part... and if there's no evidence of such, then I hope millennials (which I am one by the way) will be able to support the moderate candidate. This is still a center to center right country in a lot of ways... it could easily happen that Biden pulls ahead, without any evidence of anything untoward by the DNC.

In my view, we have a lot of candidates yes... but we're lucky... they're almost all acceptable in my view. Because yes - this election is a referendum on Trump. Beating Trump and saving the Supreme Court should be winning issues in and of themselves... and I honestly think that's the way we should go. In my view... I'm sorry to say... this is a party first kinda vote election season. I'm gonna vote for the person who wins the primary... bottom line. And I hope people can keep that in mind... to keep our eye on what the real goal is here.

The millennials didn't make the wheel. The parties did. And now you want people to agree that the wheel that roles over them is fine.

2016 proved that people don't care about the supreme court the way they should. That is so overtly not a winning issue and yet you think that is going to become a winning argument? Healthcare is a winning argument. And the farther right you get, the more people get ****ed on it.

 

[Man in the Suit]

I love Historian Twitter.

 

[MaceB]

The millennials didn't make the wheel. The parties did. And now you want people to agree that the wheel that roles over them is fine.

2016 proved that people don't care about the supreme court the way they should. That is so overtly not a winning issue and yet you think that is going to become a winning argument? Healthcare is a winning argument. And the farther right you get, the more people get ****ed on it.

In my mind, one of the things that Republicans are really good at, that Democrats are terrible at... is that the issues people care about are the issues you tell them to care about. If the Supreme Court isn't an issue, then it's our job to make it one. If people don't understand, then it's because we don't give them the information they need to understand.

Republicans are much better at this. Caravans. abortions. Religous liberty. A lot of made up, decisive issues. We should be able to do the same.

But yeah, I do think this is a referendum election for sure. And that's why it's such a tough push, because the economy is up, and people are probably more likely to give him a thumbs up then a thumbs down based on that.

In regard to me being cool with people getting rolled over...you know... I'm just gonna let it go. That just seems really intense me is all I'll say. I want reforms, but I'm not gonna take any my bullets out of my gun when we need every single one right now. It sounds like you have a special bullet you want to use. It has to be that one.

 

[MagnarTheGreat]

All the best progressive policy positions in the world are moot and dust in the wind if they're rendered unconstitutional by a rightwing wacko court.

 

[green]

 

[MaceB]

Wow, Barr totally lied to congress!

 

[DarthSkywalker]

All the best progressive policy positions in the world are moot and dust in the wind if they're rendered unconstitutional by a rightwing wacko court.

Yep. But we know that isn't a winning issue already. Because it was on the table in 2016, and what happened? Even this past midterm with what was going on, it wasn't that far up the list.

Top Issues for Voters: Healthcare, Economy, Immigration

 

[DarthSkywalker]

In my mind, one of the things that Republicans are really good at, that Democrats are terrible at... is that the issues people care about are the issues you tell them to care about. If the Supreme Court isn't an issue, then it's our job to make it one. If people don't understand, then it's because we don't give them the information they need to understand.

Republicans are much better at this. Caravans. abortions. Religous liberty. A lot of made up, decisive issues. We should be able to do the same.

But yeah, I do think this is a referendum election for sure. And that's why it's such a tough push, because the economy is up, and people are probably more likely to give him a thumbs up then a thumbs down based on that.

In regard to me being cool with people getting rolled over...you know... I'm just gonna let it go. That just seems really intense me is all I'll say. I want reforms, but I'm not gonna take any my bullets out of my gun when we need every single one right now. It sounds like you have a special bullet you want to use. It has to be that one.

Republicans care what Trump tell them to care about right now. The left tells the Democrats what they care about. They just don't listen. Biden is a brilliant example of this. And stuff like healthcare is bipartisan.

You keep talking about how people need to vote, instead of how to get the most people to vote.

 

[MaceB]

You keep talking about how people need to vote, instead of how to get the most people to vote.

Honestly, that's not true. I haven't told anyone how to vote... only how I'd prefer liberals talk about other candidates. And the reason why I'm doing that is because I want to get the most people out to vote.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

Honestly, that's not true. I haven't told anyone how to vote... only how I'd prefer liberals talk about other candidates. And the reason why I'm doing that is because I want to get the most people out to vote.

You are though. You are very determined that the right course of action is to just vote for who ever is on the ballot in 2020. I am pointing out, that isn't a winning strategy. Especially as you talk down to others about how they need to learn to compromise to do it. Like people haven't been doing this and suffering for it for a very long time now. This is what MSNBC is doing, what the Democratic party is starting to do, and I can already see the anger and apathy setting in.

Did trying to hide Hillary work in 2016? I say this as a person who voted for her in both the primary and the general. Did trying to hide who she was work out in the general? I am curious how talking about who Biden is, what he himself has done and said, is somehow sabotaging anything?

 

[MaceB]

No, I'm saying that's how I'm going to vote. For you, I wish you'd be less hyperbolic about the candidates you'd dislike, because I feel it poisons the well and its the exact thing that Bernie voters did to Hillary with Russia's help in '16.

I don't think chastising potential candidates who could win is a winning strategy either honestly.

I'm not talking down to anybody. I've been very armament that you can vote for whoever you want, and - in fact - I agree with you.

See, I don't think that we really 'suffered' under Obama. Nor Bill Clinton honestly. I think we've suffered under W. and under Trump.

The apathy isn't helped by someone calling potential candidates racist, sexist monsters either. That only adds to the apathy.

No, trying to hide Hillary did not work. You're right about that. And that's why I seriously wish Biden had gotten in first. He should have nothing to hide. You can't trick us into voting for you. You've got to be raw, and we'll either say yay or nay.

It's not that you disagree with his policies is a problem. You're questioning his morality... his character as a human being. IF he wins the primary, then voters deserve to have a reasonable debate about the pros and cons of his record against Trump's. But that becomes much harder when the staunch liberals have been telling everyone that he's akin to a rapist or a pedophile, for example.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

No, I'm saying that's how I'm going to vote. For you, I wish you'd be less hyperbolic about the candidates you'd dislike, because I feel it poisons the well and its the exact thing that Bernie voters did to Hillary with Russia's help in '16.

I don't think chastising potential candidates who could win is a winning strategy either honestly.

I'm not talking down to anybody. I've been very armament that you can vote for whoever you want, and - in fact - I agree with you.

See, I don't think that we really 'suffered' under Obama. Nor Bill Clinton honestly. I think we've suffered under W. and under Trump.

The apathy isn't helped by someone calling potential candidates racist, sexist monsters either. That only adds to the apathy.

No, trying to hide Hillary did not work. You're right about that. And that's why I seriously wish Biden had gotten in first. He should have nothing to hide. You can't trick us into voting for you. You've got to be raw, and we'll either say yay or nay.

It's not that you disagree with his policies is a problem. You're questioning his morality... his character as a human being. IF he wins the primary, then voters deserve to have a reasonable debate about the pros and cons of his record against Trump's. But that becomes much harder when the staunch liberals have been told that he's akin to a rapist or a pedophile, for example.

What hyperbolic statement have I made about Biden? Warren is my preferred candidate and I called her out on her blood test. I even said she left herself open to be attacked by Trump over it.

Black men most certainly suffered under Bill Clinton. Directly do to his own legislation. How and he decided he needed to cheat on his wife, get caught, and subject this country to Bush. So yeah...

Biden is the one making himself look bad. He won't even apologize to Anita Hill and he decides he needs to be pedantic as hell about any apology. He can't do it, and when you can't do that, you smear your own morality. One does not need to be racist or sexist to do racist or sexist things. But one does those things but won't actually apologize for their actions, what does that tell us about them? Because Biden is very particular in his apologies, trying to avoid any actual blame.

If Biden doesn't want to be seen in a similar light as racist or sexist, maybe he should stop acting like Trump and apologize properly for once.

 

[MaceB]

I honestly can't recall the exact statement. My experience of you is that you come across as volatile when talking about Biden, and it started this conversation.. I don't have a specific example to cling on to. I think there was a racist, sexist comment that may have been in there.

Like I said, I've actually been really impressed with Warren campaign too. She'd be a very cool candidate.

I don't think that Biden's comments were particularly sexist against Anita Hill, given the time and everyone else on the committee. Given his policy choices, I don't think it's particularly fair to call him a sexist. I think it's obvious he'd be on the sign of equal rights and equal pay for women, pro choice, and pretty much every other women's issue. But he should definitely apologize. He should have done it in private before he entered... so when the question came up, he would have been able to say he did apologize. But at this point... you know they are going to torture it out of him. Better to do it now and just apologize. Again, I think you are exaggerating quite a bit... and I think it's pretty silly to make judgements on him as a human being based on this. I don't think it's helpful and I think it's pretty unfair. I don't know where the impulse comes from. But you're free to do what you want, and obviously it's not going to go anywhere, so I'll just do my best to avoid contact with you on this issue, and then I imagine we'll agree as the election actually gets closer and these things are no longer issues.