Infinity War For A4 we need a scene of the Black superheroes

KevTravels

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please tell me we have a scene where BP, Fury, War Machine and Falcon all are together.

I was thinking to that photo posted from last year with the 4 of them plus Laurence Fishburne. Seeing 4 black superheroes (well Fury is kinda a hero) onscreen at the same time. That's truly groundbreaking.
 
Valkyrie, too- She shouldn't be excluded, because she amazes.
 
BP, Fury, Valkyrie, War Machine, and Falcon

[blackout]Heimdall could've been apart of it if he wasn't dead.[/blackout]
 
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My question is... Why? Other than it would be awesome to some for obvious reasons. But... okay other than that what in terms of the narrative in a film that is gonna have about as many plot threads to juggle as IW did justifies this?
 
My question is... Why? Other than it would be awesome to some for obvious reasons. But... okay other than that what in terms of the narrative in a film that is gonna have about as many plot threads to juggle as IW did justifies this?


It could work in the same way that the fight sequence with Wanda, Widow and Okoye vs. Proxima Midnight worked. That scene by itself didn't make a ton of sense in the context of the battle, but worked as a symbolic nod to the audience watching.

Not entirely sure how this would work at the script level, as the issue of race really has only been effectively addressed in the MCU with Black Panther, but if the creative team can come up with a feminism scene that is, while obviously contrived, still works well, they can do something for the black characters too.
 
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It could work in the same way that the fight sequence with Wanda, Widow and Okoye vs. Proxima Midnight worked. That scene by itself didn't make a ton of sense in the context of the battle, but worked as a symbolic nod to the audience watching.

Not entirely show how this would work at the script level, as the issue of race really has only been effectively addressed in the MCU with Black Panther, but if the creative team can come up with a feminism scene that is, while obviously contrived, still works well, they can do something for the black characters too.

I can see how that could come off as a "feminist" moment but I took more as the Russos a paying off the moment in CW where Panther steps in between Okoye and Natasha.
 
It could work in the same way that the fight sequence with Wanda, Widow and Okoye vs. Proxima Midnight worked. That scene by itself didn't make a ton of sense in the context of the battle, but worked as a symbolic nod to the audience watching.

Not entirely show how this would work at the script level, as the issue of race really has only been effectively addressed in the MCU with Black Panther, but if the creative team can come up with a feminism scene that is, while obviously contrived, still works well, they can do something for the black characters too.

What was that scene symbolic of? Did it work as anything other than three fighters fighting another fighter? I'm not sure that it did. I find the vague feminist undertones in superhero movies mostly vacuous. Wonder Woman was hailed as some sort of statement of female empowerment, yet her defining characteristics were that's she's stronger than any man - something no woman could ever hope to achieve - and she wears a skimpy outfit. I would consider someone like Jemma Simmons a far more powerful female role model than some petite warrior woman* that can magically overpower men thrice her size because muh feminism.


*I'm thinking Okoye and Black Widow not Wonder Woman
 
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I can see how that could come off as a "feminist" moment but I took more as the Russos a paying off the moment in CW where Panther steps in between Okoye and Natasha.

That wasn't Okoye in CW.
 
What was that scene symbolic of? Did it work as anything other than three fighters fighting another fighter? I'm not sure that it did. I find the vague feminist undertones in superhero movies mostly vacuous. Wonder Woman was hailed as some sort of statement of female empowerment, yet her defining characteristics were that's she's stronger than any man - something no woman could ever hope to achieve - and she wears a skimpy outfit. I would consider someone like Jemma Simmons a far more powerful female role model than some petite warrior woman* that can magically overpower men thrice her size because muh feminism.


*I'm thinking Okoye and Black Widow not Wonder Woman


Whether you consider it effective or not, or superficial or not, it was a clear attempt at a "girl power" moment, you have to admit that. Considering how few female characters there are in this movie, that they put all the female characters on this huge battlefield in the same micro-battle is definitely symbolic of something.
 
It would be cool but racial divide, however subtle it is, has no room in MCU. They’ve done a tremendous job with diversifying their cinematic landscape, and though it’s stil a work in progress, scenes like this brings nothing in context other than having a group of men in the same frame simply because they all share the same skin color.


It’s the same reason why I never understood the need for an all female cast MCU movie. Why?
 
My question is... Why? Other than it would be awesome to some for obvious reasons. But... okay other than that what in terms of the narrative in a film that is gonna have about as many plot threads to juggle as IW did justifies this?

Not entirely show how this would work at the script level, as the issue of race really has only been effectively addressed in the MCU with Black Panther, but if the creative team can come up with a feminism scene that is, while obviously contrived, still works well, they can do something for the black characters too.

I think it was a huge missed opportunity to not have Rhodey and Falcon actually marvel at Wakanda and take in the scenery. I'd imagine that the same sort of reaction and feelings a lot of black audiences got seeing Black Panther would definitely apply here in some way, and it would at least underscore the significance of Wakanda in-universe as more than just being a strategic military locale with cool technology. I don't necessarily expect an entire movie or plot thread based on it in the context of something as big as Infinity War, but at least a reaction shot and a stray comment from either of them would've been nice and actually give them a bit of emotional depth that neither (particularly Falcon) has really gotten. (Surely there's tons of subtext to be mined from the idea of two African American military members coming "home" to help defend an untouched African country from invasion and potential destruction.) Rhodes seemed to hold a particular degree of respect and even reverence for T'Challa in Civil War, so I'd imagine his reaction to Wakanda would be a reasonable through-line from that last encounter that wouldn't have to come across as "contrived".

I can see how that could come off as a "feminist" moment but I took more as the Russos a paying off the moment in CW where Panther steps in between Okoye and Natasha.
That was Ayo in Civil War, not Okoye. I was actually surprised they didn't pay off that standoff in a more direct way; you pretty much just had Ayo eyeing Black Widow when the Avengers were getting off the quinjet while Widow seemed to just try to avoid direct eye contact with the Dora Milaje overall. :funny:

What was that scene symbolic of? Did it work as anything other than three fighters fighting another fighter? I'm not sure that it did. I find the vague feminist undertones in superhero movies mostly vacuous. Wonder Woman was hailed as some sort of statement of female empowerment, yet her defining characteristics were that's she's stronger than any man - something no woman could ever hope to achieve - and she wears a skimpy outfit. I would consider someone like Jemma Simmons a far more powerful female role model than some petite warrior woman* that can magically overpower men thrice her size because muh feminism.

*I'm thinking Okoye and Black Widow not Wonder Woman

It doesn't have to be a huge overt statement for it to count as feminism. The fact that you had three women with different skill sets, abilities, and backgrounds teaming up onscreen for even a brief moment in the overall battle -- in a genre where you usually just see the guys doing their thing (especially after 18 movies and at least a decade in the MCU alone) -- is enough of a statement for the moment. (Of course a Jemma Simmons or Shuri also counts; feminist ideals can be multifaceted.)

Also, side note, you don't have to be bigger or stronger than your opponents to beat them in a fight. Just have the skills and ability to hit them in the right place. :funny:
 
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It doesn't have to be a huge overt statement for it to count as feminism. The fact that you had three women with different skill sets, abilities, and backgrounds teaming up onscreen for even a brief moment in the overall battle in a genre where you usually just see the guys doing their thing is enough of a statement for the moment.

So people keep saying, yet nobody seems to be able to articulate what that statement was.

Also, side note, you don't have to be bigger or stronger than your opponents to beat them in a fight. Just have the skills and ability to hit them in the right place. :funny:

In TV and movies, maybe. You put fighters from very different weight classes up against one another in real life however and the result is invariably the same.
 
So people keep saying, yet nobody seems to be able to articulate what that statement was.



In TV and movies, maybe. You put fighters from very different weight classes up against one another in real life however and the result is invariably the same.

I mostly just saw it as a brief moment of female camaraderie in a male-dominated genre, 'tis all. Like I said, it doesn't have to be a huge sweeping message, just a nice gesture. I'm a guy myself so I couldn't necessarily express what it means on a more visceral level, though I'm sure at least some girls seeing this scene got more out of it than I did; my little sisters mentioned it as one of the highlights of the film for them, for what it's worth.

There are entire martial arts styles that focus on smaller people using their size and techniques to beat larger opponents in hand-to-hand combat. Being a smaller person myself and having gone up against significantly bigger opponents in both street fights and competitions, I can attest that it's not just a TV/film trope. :cwink:
 
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BTW, if we ever get a scene with Fury, Falcon, Panther, War Machine and Valkyrie in the same grouping, they should call themselves the Even Blacker Order.

I'll just see myself out now.
 
I think it was a huge missed opportunity to not have Rhodey and Falcon actually marvel at Wakanda and take in the scenery. I'd imagine that the same sort of reaction and feelings a lot of black audiences got seeing Black Panther would definitely apply here in some way, and it would at least underscore the significance of Wakanda in-universe as more than just being a strategic military locale with cool technology. I don't necessarily expect an entire movie or plot thread based on it in the context of something as big as Infinity War, but at least a reaction shot and a stray comment from either of them would've been nice and actually give them a bit of emotional depth that neither (particularly Falcon) has really gotten. (Surely there's tons of subtext to be mined from the idea of two African American military members coming "home" to help defend an untouched African country from invasion and potential destruction.) Rhodes seemed to hold a particular degree of respect and even reverence for T'Challa in Civil War, so I'd imagine his reaction to Wakanda would be a reasonable through-line from that last encounter that wouldn't have to come across as "contrived".

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I totally agree. So easy for there to have been a line where both Falcon and WM were amazed by what they see in Wakanda. Even a glance at least. A missed opportunity IMO.

I wish also we had seen the 2 of them interact far more in the battle. We even see Rhodey looking for him after he vanished. Real emotional scene for me.
 
It would be cool but racial divide, however subtle it is, has no room in MCU. They’ve done a tremendous job with diversifying their cinematic landscape, and though it’s stil a work in progress, scenes like this brings nothing in context other than having a group of men in the same frame simply because they all share the same skin color.


It’s the same reason why I never understood the need for an all female cast MCU movie. Why?
I agree about the racial divide being non existent in the MCU. To me the major missed opportunity was for The First Avenger to pass on the issue both in America and the Red Skull wing of Hydra.

Besides Nick Fury, or Samuel L. maybe improvising a driving while black reference black people only looked different and faced zero social challenges so why would a meeting of the brothers be a big deal in their world?

If you wish to bring in TV and Luke Cage then fine we can use TV in all these conversations as background world building extras.

But then in Agent Carter's first season, following TFA example, we had a black club owner flirting with Peggy in the open in 1947 America and black police officers with no body questioning his authority. Then they tried to tell a race based show in her second season. While most know the actual social history of America it did not fit the 12 previous MCU hours of how America worked.
 
That would just seem forced to me. Marvel trying to prove what we already know - that they are diverse - by throwing at the screen their black heroes together at the same time purely to highlight it.
 
That would just seem forced to me. Marvel trying to prove what we already know - that they are diverse - by throwing at the screen their black heroes together at the same time purely to highlight it.

It can be done in a reasonable way without it appearing forced.

Ala the scene in Civil War. You had WM, Falcon and BP on screen at the same time. Maybe folks overlooked that; but it was quite a breakthrough.

I'm sure a scene can be created. It can be for 20 seconds. I mean come on you have Nick Fury meeting T'Challa at least. Nick Fury speaks his mind and he'd have a lot to say about Wakanda and its sovereign.
 
It can be done in a reasonable way without it appearing forced.

Ala the scene in Civil War. You had WM, Falcon and BP on screen at the same time. Maybe folks overlooked that; but it was quite a breakthrough.

I'm sure a scene can be created. It can be for 20 seconds. I mean come on you have Nick Fury meeting T'Challa at least. Nick Fury speaks his mind and he'd have a lot to say about Wakanda and its sovereign.

There always needs to be a narrative reason though. If you just do it with the belief that you need a token all-black-heroes-together scene it will jar.
 
All we need is Black Panther, Falcon and War Machine together in the battlefield. I wouldn't count Valkyrie as Black, since she's an alien from Asgard. Different socio-political constructs on Asgard I'm sure.
 
I agree about the racial divide being non existent in the MCU. To me the major missed opportunity was for The First Avenger to pass on the issue both in America and the Red Skull wing of Hydra.

Besides Nick Fury, or Samuel L. maybe improvising a driving while black reference black people only looked different and faced zero social challenges so why would a meeting of the brothers be a big deal in their world?

If you wish to bring in TV and Luke Cage then fine we can use TV in all these conversations as background world building extras.

But then in Agent Carter's first season, following TFA example, we had a black club owner flirting with Peggy in the open in 1947 America and black police officers with no body questioning his authority. Then they tried to tell a race based show in her second season. While most know the actual social history of America it did not fit the 12 previous MCU hours of how America worked.

I don't know, if you've seen Black Panther then you know that clearly MCU world history hasn't been all that different from the real world insofar as social and racial dynamics all the way up through the present day, even if it seems like the U.S. military looks integrated in WWII. (And that could've just been circumstantial, e.g. troops meeting up together on the battlefield, or they just happened to take a black dude or two into a platoon because of the pressures of the war effort.) Honestly, the only reason they haven't actually addressed these sorts of things in most of the MCU films -- I haven't watched the TV shows so I can't fully comment on stuff like Luke Cage or the Agent Carter scene, though depending on the locational context it's still possible for the latter to have happened in a segregated America -- is because most of the characters are white guys and these are "family films"; the focus isn't on the few non-white human characters who've popped up over the years and so you just have to accept that said main white guys happen to not be bigots by way of their having black friends and being literal heroes.

(Also, side note, black cops have existed in America since the 1860s and while still holding a complex relationship with the country at large, they were respected as officers to some degree. (Fun fact: U.S. president Ulysses S. Grant was actually pulled over and arrested by a black officer in the 1870s.) A short read on the subject if you're interested: http://journals.sagepub.com/doi/pdf/10.1177/104398628000100403)
 
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There are entire martial arts styles that focus on smaller people using their size and techniques to beat larger opponents in hand-to-hand combat. Being a smaller person myself and having gone up against significantly bigger opponents in both street fights and competitions, I can attest that it's not just a TV/film trope. :cwink:

5'2" women beating up full grown male fighters is a film trope, especially with the way these fights are choreographed. They're simply not built to generate that kind of power.
 
All we need is Black Panther, Falcon and War Machine together in the battlefield. I wouldn't count Valkyrie as Black, since she's an alien from Asgard. Different socio-political constructs on Asgard I'm sure.

^THIS.

I'd love to see that. We should have seen Falcon and WM letting loose together in Wakanda. And a scene of all the Avengers arriving and thanking T'Challa and marveling at what was in front of them. And of T'Challa and Cap forming a plan. heck even Cap saying something like "we have our heavy hitters and we have our flies (WM, Falcon)...etc ...".
 
5'2" women beating up full grown male fighters is a film trope, especially with the way these fights are choreographed. They're simply not built to generate that kind of power.

I'll give you that it's a film trope, but it's not like it's unfounded. Fighting isn't a matter of just raw power, it's more the skill and technique employed that'll make the real difference, and you have to remember that these aren't just average women, they're are highly trained soldiers and assassins who have the skills to hold their own against larger opponents because that's what they're trained to face. Again, there are various martial arts styles created by and for people of small stature (i.e., under 5'5, which I am) that focus on joint locks, pressure points, targeting weak areas on the body, and generally using the other (larger) person's weight and momentum against them via slipping and redirection rather than just all-out brawling. It doesn't take a lot of force to break a finger or put someone way larger than you into a wrist lock, and I've noticed that that tends to be how at least the MCU's female fighters usually engage their opponents. (At least if they're fighting without a weapon.) So, are they usually protected by plot armor, sure. Is it unrealistic? Absolutely not.
 

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