Infinity War For A4 we need a scene of the Black superheroes

[MbJ]

Get the clique hanging out together.

 

[Panacea]

I'll give you that it's a film trope, but it's not like it's unfounded. Fighting isn't a matter of just raw power, it's more the skill and technique employed that'll make the real difference, and you have to remember that these aren't just average women, they're are highly trained soldiers and assassins who have the skills to hold their own against larger opponents because that's what they're trained to face. Again, there are various martial arts styles created by and for people of small stature (i.e., under 5'5, which I am) that focus on joint locks, pressure points, targeting weak areas on the body, and generally using the other (larger) person's weight and momentum against them via slipping and redirection rather than just all-out brawling. It doesn't take a lot of force to break a finger or put someone way larger than you into a wrist lock, and I've noticed that that tends to be how at least the MCU's female fighters usually engage their opponents. (At least if they're fighting without a weapon.) So, are they usually protected by plot armor, sure. Is it unrealistic? Absolutely not.

I've just had a quick look at a Black Widow fight compilation and almost every scene has her overcome one or more of her opponents in part using raw power. There's even a grappling scene where she's shown to be of equal strength to Hawkeye. I think you're massively underestimating the advantage that any male - much less a 6'+ male - has over a 5'2" woman. A man of that size and structure could literally just soak her hits and hold her aloft when she tries to throw him. It's wildly unrealistic, there is no precedent for this working with such a size/strength disparity, at least when we're talking about trained fighters, as her opponents always are. I mean hell, almost all martial arts styles only work on the mats or the untrained, as we've seen when they're introduced to MMA. It's a trope of the genre, I can live with it, I just find it irritating when the media takes a hollow literalist view of what a "strong woman" actually is.

 

[KevTravels]

Get the clique hanging out together.

Beautiful

 

[Melpardus]

Beautiful

Who's the dude in the suit on the left?

I've just had a quick look at a Black Widow fight compilation and almost every scene has her overcome one or more of her opponents in part using raw power. There's even a grappling scene where she's shown to be of equal strength to Hawkeye. I think you're massively underestimating the advantage that any male - much less a 6'+ male - has over a 5'2" woman. A man of that size and structure could literally just soak her hits and hold her aloft when she tries to throw him. It's wildly unrealistic, there is no precedent for this working with such a size/strength disparity, at least when we're talking about trained fighters, as her opponents always are. I mean hell, almost all martial arts styles only work on the mats or the untrained, as we've seen when they're introduced to MMA. It's a trope of the genre, I can live with it, I just find it irritating when the media takes a hollow literalist view of what a "strong woman" actually is.

I won't press the issue here much longer since it's becoming its own tangential topic and we're kinda repeating ourselves, but I'll close on this: just watched all of Widow's fight scenes, particularly the ones where she's unarmed against human opponents. Most of her moves are as I described, i.e. targeting joints, throats, noses, etc., in addition to using a lot of momentum-based suicide-type takedowns where she uses her bodyweight as a sort of pendulum around her opponent's neck. I won't get too technical, but you're pretty much overestimating the value of just being a big tough dude, trained or not. Just by way of human physiology, there's no soaking hits when you get a good pop in the nose or between the eyes; these sorts of strikes really don't take a lot of force to have a devastating impact, even if it's just momentary, since that moment is all you need to potentially end a fight. MCU Widow is supposed to be 5'7'' and weigh about 140 lbs -- not 5'2''; I'm actually shorter and weigh less than pretty much all of these characters, and she and I have the same weight and general build -- which from personal experience in both street fights (against both trained and untrained opponents, all bigger and/or older than me) and competitions is not a disqualifying factor for someone who knows what they're doing and how to properly apply their technique. As a matter of fact, it's been observed that female fighters (especially MMA/UFC fighters) tend to be more precise with their strikes than their male counterparts who tend rely more on strength than actual technique, especially bigger dudes. To say there's no precedent for overcoming size disparities (regardless of the sexes involved) in this sort of thing is bunk.

 

[MbJ]

Why am I not surprised the usual suspects are at it again in this thread?

Who's the dude in the suit on the left?

(Apologies for the double-post, but I can't find the delete option for this.)

Falcon. He's giving the eulogy at War Machine's funeral.

 

[Iron_Stark]

That would just seem forced to me. Marvel trying to prove what we already know - that they are diverse - by throwing at the screen their black heroes together at the same time purely to highlight it.

They're not all that diverse tbh. In the 10 year group photo how many Latinos and Asians were on there?

People want a scene with all the black heroes together, that's fine, what about also putting Latino superhero on screen? Or a Muslim super? Asian?I

Ten years and Marvel still has a long way to go.

 

[chaseter]

Demanding inclusivity with a diverse set of characters but then wanting scenes to be racially exclusive is a mixed message. Each religion, race, gender, orientation would then want their own team up scenes and it would never end. The important thing is inclusion and respect.

 

[ohiostate124]

Yeah let’s not have the black heroes segregate themselves in the midst of battle. How about more Captain America and Black Panther kicking ass together?

 

[Melpardus]

Yeah let’s not have the black heroes segregate themselves in the midst of battle. How about more Captain America and Black Panther kicking ass together?

Falcon and War Machine were already flying ahead of everyone in the Wakanda battle before the barrier opened and bantering back and forth to each other throughout the fight. On top of that, they seem to make a point to interact whenever they're onscreen together, no doubt in part because they're usually the only black people in the room at any given point; think the back and forth they had in Civil War in debating the Accords. It's a subtle thing, but it's there. More bits like that wouldn't hurt.

 

[TheVileOne]

My question is... Why? Other than it would be awesome to some for obvious reasons. But... okay other than that what in terms of the narrative in a film that is gonna have about as many plot threads to juggle as IW did justifies this?

I also have the same question.

 

[SPO2 Dalisay]

Falcon and War Machine were already flying ahead of everyone in the Wakanda battle before the barrier opened and bantering back and forth to each other throughout the fight. On top of that, they seem to make a point to interact whenever they're onscreen together, no doubt in part because they're usually the only black people in the room at any given point; think the back and forth they had in Civil War in debating the Accords. It's a subtle thing, but it's there. More bits like that wouldn't hurt.

I just took it as two USAF vets doing what they were trained to do before avenging. Yes I know technically on Rhody osince SGT Wilson was a PJ and not a fighter pilot

 

[KevTravels]

falcon and war machine were already flying ahead of everyone in the wakanda battle before the barrier opened and bantering back and forth to each other throughout the fight. On top of that, they seem to make a point to interact whenever they're onscreen together, no doubt in part because they're usually the only black people in the room at any given point; think the back and forth they had in civil war in debating the accords. It's a subtle thing, but it's there. More bits like that wouldn't hurt.

^this

 

[KevTravels]

I also have the same question.

No one's asking for a 5minute scene. But a 1 minute scene or a 30 second shot.

Of the 4 of them on screen together all at once. It can be done really well.

It really makes no sense that WM nor Falcon stated anything about Wakanda itself when they arrived. All we got from anyone was WM joking with Banner about whether to bow or not.

 

[SPO2 Dalisay]

No one's asking for a 5minute scene. But a 1 minute scene or a 30 second shot.

Of the 4 of them on screen together all at once. It can be done really well.

It really makes no sense that WM nor Falcon stated anything about Wakanda itself when they arrived. All we got from anyone was WM joking with Banner about whether to bow or not.

Why would they have a comment about Africa the MCU US military was integrated during WWII and black men in the 1940's could mix with white women with zero consequences. Maybe if the movies were set in the comics 60's, on the back of a real life Civil Rights movement life improvements I could see the black folks giving a wow where did this come from comment. But in a world 50 years after the peak of the movement when we were shown a world without Jim Crow why?

 

[parkerpete]

Who's the dude in the suit on the left?



I won't press the issue here much longer since it's becoming its own tangential topic and we're kinda repeating ourselves, but I'll close on this: just watched all of Widow's fight scenes, particularly the ones where she's unarmed against human opponents. Most of her moves are as I described, i.e. targeting joints, throats, noses, etc., in addition to using a lot of momentum-based suicide-type takedowns where she uses her bodyweight as a sort of pendulum around her opponent's neck. I won't get too technical, but you're pretty much overestimating the value of just being a big tough dude, trained or not. Just by way of human physiology, there's no soaking hits when you get a good pop in the nose or between the eyes; these sorts of strikes really don't take a lot of force to have a devastating impact, even if it's just momentary, since that moment is all you need to potentially end a fight. MCU Widow is supposed to be 5'7'' and weigh about 140 lbs -- not 5'2''; I'm actually shorter and weigh less than pretty much all of these characters, and she and I have the same weight and general build -- which from personal experience in both street fights (against both trained and untrained opponents, all bigger and/or older than me) and competitions is not a disqualifying factor for someone who knows what they're doing and how to properly apply their technique. As a matter of fact, it's been observed that female fighters (especially MMA/UFC fighters) tend to be more precise with their strikes than their male counterparts who tend rely more on strength than actual technique, especially bigger dudes. To say there's no precedent for overcoming size disparities (regardless of the sexes involved) in this sort of thing is bunk.

Honestly, I'm a bit skeptical about the source of fans' complaints about Widow taking down male opponents, while I'm fairly positive none of them write similarly lengthy treatises complaining about how Falcon's thrusters don't burn his ass off, or how Tony, Rhodey, or Spidey can manage to fall miles out of the air without being pulverized to mush.

 

[Creo]

Falcon and War Machine were already flying ahead of everyone in the Wakanda battle before the barrier opened and bantering back and forth to each other throughout the fight. On top of that, they seem to make a point to interact whenever they're onscreen together, no doubt in part because they're usually the only black people in the room at any given point; think the back and forth they had in Civil War in debating the Accords. It's a subtle thing, but it's there. More bits like that wouldn't hurt.

They were also the only two flyers... So yes, they were flying ahead. Their banter was discussing the fight from the air, which makes sense, as they were the only two in the air. Having a shot including Black Panther would feel out of place, as they're different types of combatants.

Everyone debated with each other in Civil War. It seems a bit odd to point out the two black people talking to each other as a specific example of having a "black character shot" when they were also debating the Accords with others in the room.

I'm all for inclusion and a more diverse mcu, but this seems like exclusion to me. Plus you'd need a narrative for it.

 

[warhorse78]

I've just had a quick look at a Black Widow fight compilation and almost every scene has her overcome one or more of her opponents in part using raw power. There's even a grappling scene where she's shown to be of equal strength to Hawkeye. I think you're massively underestimating the advantage that any male - much less a 6'+ male - has over a 5'2" woman. A man of that size and structure could literally just soak her hits and hold her aloft when she tries to throw him. It's wildly unrealistic, there is no precedent for this working with such a size/strength disparity, at least when we're talking about trained fighters, as her opponents always are. I mean hell, almost all martial arts styles only work on the mats or the untrained, as we've seen when they're introduced to MMA. It's a trope of the genre, I can live with it, I just find it irritating when the media takes a hollow literalist view of what a "strong woman" actually is.

It's one of the reasons why I'm hoping this unexplained superstrength from her is that Russia had their own super soldier serum and she was an experiment that went right. Because you are right, a woman would have to have some serious muscles (think Vaquez from Aliens) to be any kind of a threat to another able bodied man. It's the reason why athletic competitions are divided between males and females, simply due to the fact that men are far superior in strength and speed to a woman.

As for this topic, sure, it should be a defining point in the MCU (even though I am kind of confused at what would be the point of all of this? They are still fictional characters that were created by white men, and white men will be the ones getting rich off of these Black superheroes, so again, what would be the point of all of this?????). I just wish outside of the Black Panther crew and Heimdall, the others weren't relegated to just the comedy sidekicks to their white male counterpart. Here's to hoping Disney can secure those rights to X-Men, would love to see seriously powerful superheroes like Storm.

And while Rhodey and Sam had some fun interactions, I personally love Sam's and Bucky's slowly building friendship that started in Civil War (that car scene was hilarious), and I hope to see that continue. I also hope the first girlfriend from Homecoming comes back, the girl they picked as the new Mary Jane is annoying as #$%^&*.

 

[Melpardus]

Why would they have a comment about Africa the MCU US military was integrated during WWII and black men in the 1940's could mix with white women with zero consequences. Maybe if the movies were set in the comics 60's, on the back of a real life Civil Rights movement life improvements I could see the black folks giving a wow where did this come from comment. But in a world 50 years after the peak of the movement when we were shown a world without Jim Crow why?

Even if the U.S. military had been formally integrated during WWII (which isn't necessarily the case in the MCU; in real life, segregated platoons existed but black and white units did end up together on the front, as we see in the film) and we saw an instance of a black guy flirting with a white woman without getting lynched onscreen (I still haven't found that scene yet), that doesn't mean Jim Crow and other forms of racism didn't exist. Again, the only reason we didn't explicitly see any bigotry is because the filmmakers opted to gloss over it because it didn't "service the story", but that doesn't mean it didn't happen.

On top of that, again, Black Panther pretty much tells you flat-out that U.S. and world history has played out in a similar fashion in the MCU as it did in real life. That's the whole crux of the movie's conflict, with Wakanda (an secretive, untouched African nation with the resources to have offered some form of aid but refusing to out of their own fear of discovery and colonization by the same forces that did it to the rest of Africa) caught in the middle and T'Challa ultimately deciding to try and right these historical wrongs. I don't know how some people here seem to have missed that, but the country's existence would and should have as big an impact in-universe as its concept and movie has in the real world, if not more. So yes, it's weird that neither Falcon nor War Machine are ever shown being in awe of this place when they arrive in Infinity War while you had black audiences the world over being moved to tears by just the first Black Panther trailer.

They were also the only two flyers... So yes, they were flying ahead. Their banter was discussing the fight from the air, which makes sense, as they were the only two in the air. Having a shot including Black Panther would feel out of place, as they're different types of combatants.

Everyone debated with each other in Civil War. It seems a bit odd to point out the two black people talking to each other as a specific example of having a "black character shot" when they were also debating the Accords with others in the room.

I'm all for inclusion and a more diverse mcu, but this seems like exclusion to me. Plus you'd need a narrative for it.

Yes, everyone had a word in the conversation, but it is something that the scene opens with a solid 15 seconds of back-and-forth between Wilson and Rhodes before the other characters started chiming in. (Which also goes to warhorse78's point about wanting to see more of black characters being more than just comedic sidekicks. At least in that scene they have substantive dialogue between each other.) Also, War Machine and Black Panther had a scene where they tag-teamed Cap in the airport fight, and then there was that cool bit where War Machine flies in carrying T'Challa as the two factions assemble before the big charge.

Personally, I don't need to see all the black heroes onscreen together in one shot or scene, but it would certainly be interesting to see their interactions together in a single room, and if the MCU does want to continue growing their crowd appeal well into the near future then more bits like that should be normalized in order to add to the characters and break negative tropes.

 

[Creo]

Even if the U.S. military had been formally integrated during WWII (which isn't necessarily the case in the MCU; in real life, segregated platoons existed but black and white units did end up together on the front, as we see in the film) and we saw an instance of a black guy flirting with a white woman without getting lynched onscreen (I still haven't found that scene yet), that doesn't mean Jim Crow and other forms of racism didn't exist. Again, the only reason we didn't explicitly see any bigotry is because the filmmakers opted to gloss over it because it didn't "service the story", but that doesn't mean it didn't happen.

On top of that, again, Black Panther pretty much tells you flat-out that U.S. and world history has played out in a similar fashion in the MCU as it did in real life. That's the whole crux of the movie's conflict, with Wakanda (an secretive, untouched African nation with the resources to have offered some form of aid but refusing to out of their own fear of discovery and colonization by the same forces that did it to the rest of Africa) caught in the middle and T'Challa ultimately deciding to try and right these historical wrongs. I don't know how some people here seem to have missed that, but the country's existence would and should have as big an impact in-universe as its concept and movie has in the real world, if not more. So yes, it's weird that neither Falcon nor War Machine are ever shown being in awe of this place when they arrive in Infinity War while you had black audiences the world over being moved to tears by just the first Black Panther trailer.



Yes, everyone had a word in the conversation, but it is something that the scene opens with a solid 15 seconds of back-and-forth between Wilson and Rhodes before the other characters started chiming in. (Which also goes to warhorse78's point about wanting to see more of black characters being more than just comedic sidekicks. At least in that scene they have substantive dialogue between each other.) Also, War Machine and Black Panther had a scene where they tag-teamed Cap in the airport fight, and then there was that cool bit where War Machine flies in carrying T'Challa as the two factions assemble before the big charge.

Personally, I don't need to see all the black heroes onscreen together in one shot or scene, but it would certainly be interesting to see their interactions together in a single room, and if the MCU does want to continue growing their crowd appeal well into the near future then more bits like that should be normalized in order to add to the characters and break negative tropes.

I just don't see that as any sort of nod, it's just normal character interaction. It's great that it happens, but those characters then act with other people.

The scene asked for in the original post, if it's like the girl scene in IW, would feel setup like that scene did. The black characters should all interact together, but they should be doing that with everyone already.

 

[Creo]

I will agree that black heroes need more time in the spotlight as more than sidekicks though. There needs to be more representation from other minorities as well.

 

[daddydivine]

I'd settle for a cool after credits scene of Fury and the rest of the black heroes of the MCU in Wakanda asking about citizenship... with Luke Cage arriving late.

Would be an awesome watercolor moment. Plus, I'd want that scene on a poster for my room. Put it next to my MLK poster and be like. "So this is what the mountaintop looks like."

 

[ohiostate124]

Falcon and War Machine were already flying ahead of everyone in the Wakanda battle before the barrier opened and bantering back and forth to each other throughout the fight. On top of that, they seem to make a point to interact whenever they're onscreen together, no doubt in part because they're usually the only black people in the room at any given point; think the back and forth they had in Civil War in debating the Accords. It's a subtle thing, but it's there. More bits like that wouldn't hurt.

That’s because they were the air support and because they are both military.

 

[ctsketch]

I can see how that could come off as a "feminist" moment but I took more as the Russos a paying off the moment in CW where Panther steps in between Okoye and Natasha.

it was Ayo and Natasha

 

[ctsketch]

I've just had a quick look at a Black Widow fight compilation and almost every scene has her overcome one or more of her opponents in part using raw power. There's even a grappling scene where she's shown to be of equal strength to Hawkeye. I think you're massively underestimating the advantage that any male - much less a 6'+ male - has over a 5'2" woman. A man of that size and structure could literally just soak her hits and hold her aloft when she tries to throw him. It's wildly unrealistic, there is no precedent for this working with such a size/strength disparity, at least when we're talking about trained fighters, as her opponents always are. I mean hell, almost all martial arts styles only work on the mats or the untrained, as we've seen when they're introduced to MMA. It's a trope of the genre, I can live with it, I just find it irritating when the media takes a hollow literalist view of what a "strong woman" actually is.

There's a 5 foot tall 3rd degree black belt in my school that can take me, a 180 lb 2nd degree male in a grapple

 

[Creo]

I'd settle for a cool after credits scene of Fury and the rest of the black heroes of the MCU in Wakanda asking about citizenship... with Luke Cage arriving late.

Would be an awesome watercolor moment. Plus, I'd want that scene on a poster for my room. Put it next to my MLK poster and be like. "So this is what the mountaintop looks like."

Two American military veterans asking for citizenship? This just seems like major pandering.