The Dark Knight Rises Freeman: 'Nolan to return to Batman'

[Mr. Earle]

She is kinda ****ty though.

 

[Rodrigo90]

Megan does have those "come to bed eyes"...its how she gets her roles. LOL

 

[flickchick85]

Bring in a new romance like Vicki Vale but keep it on the side. It's far more interesting to see Bruce TRY to live a normal life while dealing with the hell that he goes through. More drama to chew on. Personally I don't think every superhero movie HAS to have some major love story. It's getting ridicuous. The Dark Knight had some elements of romance but the movie hardly centered around it. In fact, none of Nolans movies have centered around love or romantic relationships. He deals with bigger and much more mature themes. He's not going to want to deal with the whole Batman/Catwoman relationship. I'll bet we will not see Catwoman in part 3.

I think you're approaching this the wrong way - why would we want to see a love interest "on the side"? Isn't that EXACTLY the kind of thinking that makes the love interest seem pointless and makes so many people not want to see one at all? IMO, the love interest should be an essential piece of the plot or not exist. She shouldn't exist just to be a love interest. And I think Catwoman is the most natural choice for this type character because not only does she have deep connection to Gotham City (especially the disenfranchised portion), but she also has volatile and varied relationships with other major players who could be key figures in the story (like Black Mask, for example).

Then there's what she represents: she and Bruce could have similar missions (helping the people of Gotham, going about it in their own "rogue" ways), and they even refrain from killing to achieve those missions - BUT they are separated by the thin blue line. Batman wants to help the law, Catwoman HATES the law (from growing up witnessing the corruption first-hand). And if you think about how low Batman will be in this film, with no allies - not even Gordon - within the law, Catwoman's more care-free "screw 'em all" philosophy might prove quite tempting for him.

So not only could she provide a direct threat to Batman's missions throughout the film, but she could also pose a moral/philosophical threat to Bruce himself. That makes her much more compelling and a better addition to me than some "on the side" love interest.

 

[KalMart]

I don't think Catwoman, or any possible love interest, would make Batman question whether he's on the 'right side', so to speak. This is a guy who's already decided to take the heat for Dent's death for the sake of the city and their faith in the law, so he's not about to even entertain the thought of wavering on what he's working towards. There should be a common emotional hurdle that they're both trying to overcome....be it loss, loneliness, isolation or what have you. But where they're respectively coming from should be the conflict. Batman wants to redeem himself in the eyes of Gotham, Catwoman is rebelling....and their mere association puts those things at odds with one another. It's a classic romantic tragedy model.

 

[Mr. Earle]

[YT]19qdCEPFz4w[/YT]
Its been a while since i last posted this. Reposting for pure awesome.

 

[flickchick85]

I don't think Catwoman, or any possible love interest, would make Batman question whether he's on the 'right side', so to speak. This is a guy who's already decided to take the heat for Dent's death for the sake of the city and their faith in the law. There should be a common emotional hurdle that they're both trying to overcome....be it loss, loneliness, isolation or what have you. But where they're respectively coming from should be the conflict. Batman wants to redeem himself in the eyes of Gotham, Catwoman is rebelling....and their mere association puts those things at odds with one another. It's a classic romantic tragedy model.

I absolutely agree that Batman shouldn't question whether he's on the right side. It's the blurry line of the Gotham police force, which has been proven to be rife with corruption, and their relentless hunt for him, that makes whether he should even try to win back their allegiance the question of the day. Catwoman would obviously argue not (and might have a point, since they rarely actually help him do his job), and given the harsh conditions and struggle he'll be facing in the 3rd film with the entire city against him, her philosophy would hold a certain appeal - both tend to prefer working alone. But of course, he'll ultimately go the other way in the end, and win back his alliance with Gordon. But I didn't mean to suggest that he'd waiver in his mission or his "code." He'll ALWAYS be steadfast in his beliefs on how to make Gotham a better place.

 

[Rodrigo90]

Begins and TDK were meant show his devotion to Gotham,and that he will do whatever it takes to protect the City and its inhabitants. He will go to ANY length to ensure Gotham's safety. Batman's too certain minded and clear,he will go to any limit,but he knows his true boundaries. He knows whats right and whats wrong.

 

[KalMart]

I absolutely agree that Batman shouldn't question whether he's on the right side. It's the blurry line of the Gotham police force, which has been proven to be rife with corruption, and their relentless hunt for him, that makes whether he should even try to win back their allegiance the question of the day. Catwoman would obviously argue not (and might have a point, since they rarely actually help him do his job), and given the harsh conditions and struggle he'll be facing in the 3rd film with the entire city against him, her philosophy would hold a certain appeal - both tend to prefer working alone. But of course, he'll ultimately go the other way in the end, and win back his alliance with Gordon. But I didn't mean to suggest that he'd waiver in his mission or his "code." He'll ALWAYS be steadfast in his beliefs on how to make Gotham a better place.

I don't see Batman's 'allegiance' with the police force as a whole being as much of an issue for him as his allegiance to Gordon...who has to hunt Batman to keep up appearances, but is still on his side. He's looking to inspire the people of Gotham not to accept crime or corruption, and again, I cant see anything...or anyone...making him question that now. The only thing that has is the personal cost and sacrifice. Perhaps there's some of that element with Catwoman as well...something they can both identify with, even though they cope with it in different ways or from different philosophies. She's not going to change his mind, but he should very much want to change hers.

 

[flickchick85]

I don't see Batman's 'allegiance' with the police force as a whole being as much of an issue for him as his allegiance to Gordon...who has to hunt Batman to keep up appearances, but is still on his side. He's looking to inspire the people of Gotham not to accept crime or corruption, and again, I cant see anything...or anyone...making him question that now. The only thing that has is the personal cost and sacrifice. Perhaps there's some of that element with Catwoman as well...something they can both identify with, even though they cope with it in different ways or from different philosophies. She's not going to change his mind, but he should very much want to change hers.

Ha, I actually agree with everything you just said except the very first part. To me, Gordon's role in this series is as the shining beacon of hope of the GPD. Yes, on an individual level he becomes a true friend, but the importance of Gordon and the reason he exists in the story is what he represents, imo, as a part of the greater whole - what Batman hopes the law in Gotham will be someday. So I think Batman will care about the allegiance of Gordon's men as well, not just Gordon himself.

 

[KalMart]

Ha, I actually agree with everything you just said except the very first part. To me, Gordon's role in this series is as the shining beacon of hope of the GPD. Yes, on an individual level he becomes a true friend, but the importance of Gordon and the reason he exists in the story is what he represents, imo, as a part of the greater whole - what Batman hopes the law in Gotham will be someday. So I think Batman will care about the allegiance of Gordon's men as well, not just Gordon himself.

Of course he hopes that things'll be cleaned up within the PD, but that's really up to Gordon. Batman will dig up some dirt here and there and pass it along to those he trusts, like he did with the judge and Rachel in BB, and he'll step in when things go down on the streets. But the real work for that will have to come from within. He knows that legally, a vigilante can't be endorsed by the police department, so instead of wanting all the police to work with him...he just hopes that thing will get to a point that they won't need him, and that those with the authority to keep things clean will do their part from there, too. If Batman can take care of corruption on the streets, it oughtta' help with the corruption amongst the cops.

But as far as winning back their 'allegiance'....the true good cops pretty much felt what Batman was doing was right already...but I guess you could say that in TDK, he lost some props because they felt he was taking things 'too far'. However....it was clear that the outlook on that was due to fear created by the Joker. So they have to look to themselves and get over that kind of thinking...which we can assume Batman will also want and works towards in general. But I wouldn't say he's looking to win anything back with them...because as far as he should be concerned, he didn't lose anything....they let it be taken from them. So they've got some stepping up to do in their own game before they can be cool enough for him.

 

[flickchick85]

But as far as winning back their 'allegiance'....the true good cops pretty much felt what Batman was doing was right already...but I guess you could say that in TDK, he lost some props because they felt he was taking things 'too far'. However....it was clear that the outlook on that was due to fear created by the Joker. So they have to look to themselves and get over that kind of thinking...which we can assume Batman will also want and works towards in general. But I wouldn't say he's looking to win anything back with them...because as far as he should be concerned, he didn't lose anything....they let it be taken from them. So they've got some stepping up to do in their own game before they can be cool enough for him.

All that was before he took the blame for killing those cops, though. Even the "good cops" who always had faith in him would've turned against him for that. He took that hit knowing it would take a long time to earn their trust again. I'm sure Gordon told absolutely NO ONE that it was really Harvey (the reputation and all), so it's all on Batman to face those consequences and find a way for the rest of the GPD to trust him again. That's a burden I'm sure he'll be taking to heart in the 3rd installment.

 

[KalMart]

All that was before he took the blame for killing those cops, though. Even the "good cops" who always had faith in him would've turned against him for that.

Yes, but that's his choice...as it is to put himself in a bad light with the people of Gotham as well for the sake of them maintaining hope. If he's willing to shoulder the blame in such a way, he's not looking for them to forgive him any time soon.

He took that hit knowing it would take a long time to earn their trust again.

He didn't really have it to begin with, aside from Gordon....and he obviously didn't lose that.

I'm sure Gordon told absolutely NO ONE that it was really Harvey (the reputation and all), so it's all on Batman to face those consequences and find a way for the rest of the GPD to trust him again. That's a burden I'm sure he'll be taking to heart in the 3rd installment.

What Batman did was show that their faith in themselves was more important than their faith in him. It's no shot to his pride that the police don't trust him...because when it really comes down to it, they never understood him anyway...and they sure don't now. He wants the police to do their job better and take care of their internal problems, not to 'like' him any better. Batman isn't looking for people to want to be like him, he wants people to do more of what they can themselves....AS themselves. If anything, he'd like to eventually clear his name of murder charges because it's just not true, not because he wants the police to think better of him.

 

[GaiusBaltar]

To get into the argument, Batman isn't wanting to inspire anymore. He chose the role a bad guy and now he's going to play it, at least for a while. It's a way of reigniting fear into the crime world, and attracting the heat from the authorities is the unlucky downside. The problem is that he needs to dislike the force for something, to watch them do something he disagrees with and then hold a grudge against them. Something Catwoman can use to try to "convince" him. Which is a great oportunity to have some really big antagonists within the authorities.

Imagine if Batman is really about to defeat some big crime lord (Penguin, Black Mask, you name it) but the incessant pursuit of the FBI (or someone else beyond Gordon's control) stops him over and over again. He may grow tired of them, because they're obsessing about catching him instead of crushing crime in Gotham. They're becoming obstacles in his work he cannot afford allowing, and may do something unpleasant to them. Add to that some major villain that works with or is protected by the law enforcers (I really dug up a story I read here about The Riddler being a fed) and there you have it... whether he agrees with Catwoman or not, he's going to end up doing what she wants him to do... fight the Police. Stall them, sabotage them, hang SWAT members from buildings .

But back to my main point, he's not willing to inspire anymore. He doesn't consider himself to be an example for anyone. He just wants to take out as much of the crime world as he can before he's taken down. He's now a frenzied soldier, knowing he's not going to be able to go forever, but rushing towards that end anyway, depressed by the deaths of his loved ones and begrudging the ones that chase him and stop him. He probably will be too drained of energy to actually make Catwoman a priority, and he will probably agree with some of what she says.

And he will hate her for trying to promote vigilantism and lawlessness, as he'll hate himself for doing exactly that.

 

[KalMart]

If Batman is going to take on a large crime element...his current 'relationship' with the police won't stop him. They might, by force, but not because he'll allow it or quit. And certainly, no catburglar will make him even consider it. Batman shouldering the blame is a sacrifice he's making for the sake of an ongoing war that he absolutely intends to keep fighting, and his biggest test as a hero. If anything, his faith and his desire to ultimately inspire should be stronger now than ever....otherwise, he wouldn't have taken the blame in the first place. He may question his methods or if he did it the right way, but not his goal. So if Catwoman is going to b a major player, I still think the appeal/attraction should be based on something they share personally, not 'professionally', because no one will make him think about wavering from his goal if he's already given up so much to achieve it.

 

[BestGirl]

If Batman is going to take on a large crime element...his current 'relationship' with the police won't stop him. They might, by force, but not because he'll allow it or quit. And certainly, no catburglar will make him even consider it. Batman shouldering the blame is a sacrifice he's making for the sake of an ongoing war that he absolutely intends to keep fighting, and his biggest test as a hero. If anything, his faith and his desire to ultimately inspire should be stronger now than ever....otherwise, he wouldn't have taken the blame in the first place. He may question his methods or if he did it the right way, but not his goal. So if Catwoman is going to b a major player, I still think the appeal/attraction should be based on something they share personally, not 'professionally', because no one will make him think about wavering from his goal if he's already given up so much to achieve it.

He did waver about being Batman when the Joker was killing people right and left.

 

[contemporarydog]

I hope Nolan returns for at least one more film to form a trilogy! Tim Burton did only two epic films and that wasn't enough!

Yes, and look how many trilogies have been wrecked by having a shoddy director for the third - X Men, godfather, etc.

 

[contemporarydog]

I personally think people dislike Rachel (and Holmes in particular) cos they can't stand to see an attractive female lead who is also intelligent rather than the run of the mill bimbo. that's my view at any rate

 

[Doc Ock]

I personally think people dislike Rachel (and Holmes in particular) cos they can't stand to see an attractive female lead who is also intelligent rather than the run of the mill bimbo. that's my view at any rate

Really? I usually like the female actors more than the males.....and not because they may or may not be pretty.

 

[Brother Jack]

He did waver about being Batman when the Joker was killing people right and left.

Bruce was about to turn himself in actually, until Harvey came and took his place (foreshadowing Batman's eventual sacrifice).

 

[KalMart]

He did waver about being Batman when the Joker was killing people right and left.

And realized that he shouldn't. Why would someone who doesn't gratuitously kill like the joker make him make the same mistake again?

 

[Brother Jack]

If nothing else, Bruce wouldn't consider giving up now because Batman is pretty much the only thing he has in his life. His chances at ever retiring died with Rachel and Harvey, that is if he ever really had a chance to begin with.

 

[KalMart]

My thing is that the storyline has naturally progressed to the point at which the next (and hopefully final) chapter will have to up the ante even more in terms of the war for Gotham...some sort of huge deciding showdown, if you will. So the next villain should lead/represent that overall movement that he's still fighting....like Ras and the Joker did...or if it's a supporting villain, be vitally interconnected with it like Scarecrow was. Whereas Catwoman is about as independent and non-affiliated as it gets. that's why I don't think, as a character, she's a good fit for where this particular story should go. I would even prefer that they make up a villain who suits the scope of what is to come next, than have to narrow that scope in order to accommodate Catwoman just because she's Catwoman. And it's not because I'm anti-Catwoman...I'm not anti-Clayface either, but aside from the more fantastical nature of the character, he's just not 'big' enough of an influence on the larger stakes at hand.

So I'm much more interested in seeing the arc of this particular story approach complete itself appropriately, than funneling it to include as many 'traditional' rogues gallery characters as possible...or even any more. If Ledger was still alive and they wanted to bring back Joker as the only villain again, I'd be fine with it, because it feels like he could bring everything up a notch again....that's the breadth of his influence in this story. I would only want a Catwoman or whoever else if they could do that, lead a movement and completely affect the lives of everyone in the city at any moment. But then, if they reinterpreted Catwoman into something like that, for many it wouldn't be Catwoman any more, so better to go with someone else who more naturally fits that role.

 

[GaiusBaltar]

What if Catwoman becomes a symbol of their own, a "bad inspiration" of sorts, and gets underprivileged people and low-timers in the crime world to revolt against those above them: the rich who doesn't do anything for the poor, the mob bosses who take larger cuts but remain untouchable while their henchmen risk life in prison, the cops who repress them and don't let them be free.... Can you imagine a big climax where Gotham is in total riots thanks in part to Catwoman's doing?

She doesn't have to adress people in the media to achieve this, but she can interfere with the big players' plans in key moments. She's a resourceful trickster, like the Joker was. In fact, I think she's slicker and harder to catch than him. So she uses that. If she tampers with the plans of the mob leaders, the police, and Batman himself, all while being a mute symbol of vigilantism against the people Gotham may hate, she may cause a lot of havoc.

EDIT: And to adress your point, KalMart, I do think she's best to fill that position, because we're not dealing with total evil here, we're dealing with grey areas. Aside from her unjust crimes, she's going to be hammering bad guys and doing stuff for the greater good, albeit for bad reasons. Most other characters available are outright villains. She's an anti-hero, more than suited for this.

 

[GaiusBaltar]

And realized that he shouldn't. Why would someone who doesn't gratuitously kill like the joker make him make the same mistake again?

But Catwoman wouldn't ever even suggest him to stop being Batman. She would want him to stop being Wayne (or anything else he could be, in case she doesn't know). She wants him to stop putting the brakes... to stop trusting the Police and Gordon and letting them go after him, to stop targeting some minor criminals while letting go the bigger fish cuz' he has no dirt on them, to stop trusting rich, influential people who are apparently innocent. She wants him to be the darkest Batman he can be. And that's where he was going to at the end of TDK anyway, so...

 

[KalMart]

But Catwoman wouldn't ever even suggest him to stop being Batman. She would want him to stop being Wayne (or anything else he could be, in case she doesn't know). She wants him to stop putting the brakes... to stop trusting the Police and Gordon and letting them go after him, to stop targeting some minor criminals while letting go the bigger fish cuz' he has no dirt on them, to stop trusting rich, influential people who are apparently innocent.

And who would those be...investment bankers...real estate developers? Do we really want to see Batman take on insider trading?

She wants him to be the darkest Batman he can be. And that's where he was going to at the end of TDK anyway, so...

I seriously doubt that Catwoman could bring up anything darker than what he's already going through, or offer any sort of outlook that would help him with that. They ultimately believe in different things, and honestly, Batman's done more than enough soul-searching over the first two films. The third an final chapter should be about an unwavering resolve to achieve his goal,or at least steer things back onto the right path.