The Rise of Skywalker General Star Wars Episode IX News/Speculation Thread

[TheVileOne]

People shouldn't be so arrogant to ignore that some of the derision that came out of Last Jedi and believing how polarizing it was have nothing to do with Solo under-performing.

I'm not claiming it to be a sole factor, but it was very likely one.

 

[Mask&Cape]

People shouldn't be so arrogant to ignore that some of the derision that came out of Last Jedi and believing how polarizing it was have nothing to do with Solo under-performing.

I'm not claiming it to be a sole factor, but it was very likely one.

Likewise, we should give too much credence to comments on social media.

I mean, how much of the fan community is actually on twitter, etc. and how many of the people making negative comments are actually a part of the fan community.

I'm not saying there isn't genuine fans with genuine criticisms but how exactly do we gauge just how "derision" TLJ has actually caused?

Also, how much should the creative process be influenced by fan opinion? A film maker has to make a movie he believes in and can't be concerned with trying to please everyone.

And how do we know that people who disliked TLJ didn't show up for Solo? Because they said so? The same people who hate TLJ but bought the blu-ray sets anyway? Who ranted about the old EU but still bought the books?

Is the fan community alone enough to propel a Star Wars box office past 500 million, etc. Maybe it was the "average Joe" audience that didn't turn up because the choose Avengers and Jurassic World instead.

All the various facts are difficult enough for the experts to work out so I don't think the rest of are likely to do it.

EDIT: I'm not saying dislike of TLJ is not a factor - I'm just maybe it is/maybe it isn't. Maybe it is something else entirely.

 

[Frodo]

I think TLJ was one factor of many. Those who didn't like TLJ probably didn't turn up for Solo , and that includes members of GA who didn't like it .

Those who did like TLJ probably sat Solo out to wait for the next saga film and that includes members of the GA.

Both things happened . Looking at the box office of Solo its pretty clear alot of people who liked and didn't like TLJ didn't turn out for Solo and that includes the general audience.

You add to that the other factors such as competition, marketing, lack of interest, lackluster reviews, and it makes for a perfect storm that submarined Solo .

 

[Mask&Cape]

I think TLJ was one factor of many. Those who didn't like TLJ probably didn't turn up for Solo , and that includes members of GA who didn't like it .

Those who did like TLJ probably sat Solo out to wait for the next saga film and that includes members of the GA.

Both things happened . Looking at the box office of Solo its pretty clear alot of people who liked and didn't like TLJ didn't turn out for Solo and that includes the general audience.

You add to that the other factors such as competition, marketing, lack of interest, lackluster reviews, and it makes for a perfect storm that submarined Solo .

But on what do you base this?

The Star Wars fans who disliked TLJ skipped Solo. The Star Wars fans who liked TLJ also didn't go.

So who did go if Star Wars fans didn't go? What about the podcasters who don't like TLJ who went to see Solo?

And is that really believable? That every fan who didn't like TLJ didn't go to Solo. Then how do you explain the millions of people who hate TPM showing up for the other Prequels, buying the PT DVDs, etc.

Sorry, but you are contradicting yourself.

What was your opinion of TLJ ?

I do not doubt that there are fans who didn't show up to Solo because of a dislike of TLJ but I don't know of anyway to accurately measure how many that is so.

 

[Reaver027]

There are Star Wars fans that did not like TLJ that still went out to watch Solo.
I know at least 2... my father and myself.
We both thought Solo was an enjoyable ride. Nothing spectacular but pretty good.

But i think repeat business suffered a lot more from the TLJ backlash. Some fans might have only watched the movie once instead of multiple times. We can see that in TLJ legs already. Those legs were very weak.
And of course some just did not go at all. Recasting Han had a prominent role in that as well. And that noone really wanted or needed a Solo movie.

In the end it is shame that the movie did so bad because i would have liked to see what would have followed. There were some interesting story threads presented at the end. And a trilogy that involed Crimson Dawn that spanned the Boba Fett and Obi-Wan movie could have been cool.

 

[Frodo]

But on what do you base this?

The Star Wars fans who disliked TLJ skipped Solo. The Star Wars fans who liked TLJ also didn't go.

So who did go if Star Wars fans didn't go? What about the podcasters who don't like TLJ who went to see Solo?

And is that really believable? That every fan who didn't like TLJ didn't go to Solo. Then how do you explain the millions of people who hate TPM showing up for the other Prequels, buying the PT DVDs, etc.

Sorry, but you are contradicting yourself.

What was your opinion of TLJ ?

I do not doubt that there are fans who didn't show up to Solo because of a dislike of TLJ but I don't know of anyway to accurately measure how many that is so.

No , I'm not contradicting myself, but I really didn't make my post as clear as it should have been. My bad.

Let me make myself much clearer then since my post clearly left you with the wrong impression, and as a result, you seem to think I was making a different point then I was trying to make.

I should have qualified that , I wasn't referring to all sw fans who liked or didn't like TLJ didn't turn up for Solo. I wasn't crazy about TLJ myself( see my past posts, cause i'm not gonna debate it yet again for 800th time ) but I saw Solo and liked it, (again, see my past posts).

So no , not everyone who liked and disliked TLJ skipped out on Solo. There are people who hated TLJ went to see Solo and liked it, people who love TLJ and went to see Solo, people who hated TLJ and didn't see it and people who loved TLJ and didn't see it.

As far as looking for you looking for measures ,no you're not gonna accurately find measures for it, if that's what you're looking for.

I'm basing what I think happened off of anecdotal evidence from people have said online and from what those same podcasters, geek pundits, etc have said about their own experiences with people they know who did or didn't see it.

If that evidence isn't convincing or strong enough for you, fair enough. For me , it certainly explains one factor in addition to several others which explained Solo's box office. Again, I think that it's one factor , not the only factor.

You may not agree that's what happened. Fair enough.

 

[Marvolo]

his movie, which helped tank solo, just caused the star wars spinoffs to be killed. If he's right... The fans who pay the bills don't agree. Sorry.

Star wars is in freefall atm over at disney because of that guy and there is no telling what the wreckage will look like after they're done. Right now, by their own admission, they've basically retreated back to only doing episodic movies, until they figure out how to fix what he broke. That likely includes 'his' trilogy, which if it wasn't cancelled outright, has likely been put on a very slow boat to nowhereville.

Either way, the last shoe just dropped when they gutted the spinoffs, and his failure is complete.

Lucasfilm Says There are Still "Multiple" Star Wars Movies in the Works

http://www.joblo.com/movie-news/luc...multiple-star-wars-movies-in-the-works-897-03

 

[Iceman]

I wonder what’s changed.

 

[TheVileOne]

Multiple films in the works isn't like strict confirmation to me that the other ones getting reported on weren't put on indefinite hold or pushed back.

 

[TheVileOne]

Likewise, we should give too much credence to comments on social media.

I mean, how much of the fan community is actually on twitter, etc. and how many of the people making negative comments are actually a part of the fan community.

I'm not saying there isn't genuine fans with genuine criticisms but how exactly do we gauge just how "derision" TLJ has actually caused?

Also, how much should the creative process be influenced by fan opinion? A film maker has to make a movie he believes in and can't be concerned with trying to please everyone.

And how do we know that people who disliked TLJ didn't show up for Solo? Because they said so? The same people who hate TLJ but bought the blu-ray sets anyway? Who ranted about the old EU but still bought the books?

Is the fan community alone enough to propel a Star Wars box office past 500 million, etc. Maybe it was the "average Joe" audience that didn't turn up because the choose Avengers and Jurassic World instead.

All the various facts are difficult enough for the experts to work out so I don't think the rest of are likely to do it.

EDIT: I'm not saying dislike of TLJ is not a factor - I'm just maybe it is/maybe it isn't. Maybe it is something else entirely.

I'm not talking about the crazy people on YouTube or social media. But is it really insane to think a polarizing movie like Last Jedi didn't leave a bad taste in moviegoers mouth and kept them away from Solo?

 

[Ozbridge]

I have a friend who still hasn't gone to see Solo because she doesn't like TLJ.

There, now we have prove that TLJ DID leave a bad taste in moviegoers mouth and kept them away from Solo.

 

[Last Skywalker]

I'm not talking about the crazy people on YouTube or social media. But is it really insane to think a polarizing movie like Last Jedi didn't leave a bad taste in moviegoers mouth and kept them away from Solo?

I know my sister didn't go, and she named TLJ specifically as to why.

And lol if you think she has anything at all to do with the fandom or is some type of hardcore SW geek. After we talked about it, I doubt she's thought of it or Star Wars since. And this is someone who grew up watching the movies and got her kids to watch them. They all simply couldn't be bothered with Solo, after TLJ. Star Wars just wasn't cool and the thing to watch anymore.

They did see Deadpool 2, though.

That's probably the hardest type of person to quantify. Casuals that got turned off from TLJ simply stopped going to see Star Wars, and they certainly didn't feel the need to tell people about it.

And with a snap of his fingers, Rian Johnson made half the box office gross disappear. Where did the money go?!

Stayed home. Watched something else. And by all measures, Solo wasn't a bad film. But you poison the well and you lose a lot of the casuals that make the box office sing. Or even in the case of Solo.. hum.

Multiple films in the works isn't like strict confirmation to me that the other ones getting reported on weren't put on indefinite hold or pushed back.

There is one film in the works atm.. Episode 9. Everything else has either been put on hold, or they're slow-walking it without saying its on hold. They've been upfront about saying that Right Now sticking the landing of Episode 9 while figuring what 10-12 are, is their only concern and as such, one can infer that 9 is likely the only movie you'll get until at least the early-to-mid 2020's. Even if they aren't explicit about it, in retreating back to Old Faithful... the Saga Films... they're finally coming to terms with the long-term damage for a small short-term gain that RJ and KK have caused with TLJ.

 

[Aximili86]

See... you're getting it. When you poison a well, it kills everything that comes after you.

$1.3 billion dollars and a 91% average critical score hasn't "poisoned" d*ck.

 

[Last Skywalker]

$1.3 billion dollars and a 91% average critical score hasn't "poisoned" d*ck.

The key words being 'after you'.

$345 million and hundreds of millions of dollars of red ink their next movie out, causing all the spinoffs to be scrapped(and likely anything but Saga Movies either slow-walked or on virtual hold).

Hemlock couldn't have killed Star Wars that fast. But TLJ sure did.

The entire point of poisoning the well is that you don't die from it. Everything AFTER YOU does.

The more you deny it, the more the poison will kill you. The farther away we get, the more you will come to understand. Star Wars is in a very bad state atm.

Disney knows it, or they wouldn't have retreated all the way back to simply producing Saga Films.

The people who did not like TLJ know it.

The only people who haven't caught on yet are the diehards. But you will. Give it time.

Star Wars isn't to Old Yeller stage yet, but its getting there quite quickly. Do you really need it put down before you understand?

 

[rocco2216]

1.3 billions dollars and a 91% average critical score don't mean dick in the grand scheme of things and the long run.
There are plenty of films that most critics like and general audiences are mixed on. Not every film that has grossed over a billion worldwide was liked by a majority. Or at least for maybe a few it started off that way and then over time more and more people started trash talking it. Transformers Age of Extinction grossed over a billion worldwide only for Transformers The Last Knight to gross like half that worldwide. Granted The Last Jedi is a much better film than any of the Transformers films but still. Also if you read some "positive" reviews on certain films from critics they're not all high praise. It's just simply the critic at the most enjoyed the film hence a fresh review.

 

[TheVileOne]

I know my sister didn't go, and she named TLJ specifically as to why.

And lol if you think she has anything at all to do with the fandom or is some type of hardcore SW geek. After we talked about it, I doubt she's thought of it or Star Wars since. And this is someone who grew up watching the movies and got her kids to watch them. They all simply couldn't be bothered with Solo, after TLJ. Star Wars just wasn't cool and the thing to watch anymore.

They did see Deadpool 2, though.

That's probably the hardest type of person to quantify. Casuals that got turned off from TLJ simply stopped going to see Star Wars, and they certainly didn't feel the need to tell people about it.

And with a snap of his fingers, Rian Johnson made half the box office gross disappear. Where did the money go?!

Stayed home. Watched something else. And by all measures, Solo wasn't a bad film. But you poison the well and you lose a lot of the casuals that make the box office sing. Or even in the case of Solo.. hum.



There is one film in the works atm.. Episode 9. Everything else has either been put on hold, or they're slow-walking it without saying its on hold. They've been upfront about saying that Right Now sticking the landing of Episode 9 while figuring what 10-12 are, is their only concern and as such, one can infer that 9 is likely the only movie you'll get until at least the early-to-mid 2020's. Even if they aren't explicit about it, in retreating back to Old Faithful... the Saga Films... they're finally coming to terms with the long-term damage for a small short-term gain that RJ and KK have caused with TLJ.

People can talk about dumb boycotts and social media all day long. But the actual results speak for themselves. When you have average moviegoers like your sister going to Deadpool 2 instead of Solo.

Deadpool 2 $300 million and counting
http://www.boxofficemojo.com/movies/?page=main&id=foxmarvel18.htm

RT Score - 82% Critics; 86% Audience
https://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/deadpool_2/

Solo $199 million and counting
http://www.boxofficemojo.com/movies/?page=daily&id=untitledhansolostarwarsanthologyfilm.htm

RT Score - 71% Critics; 64% Audience
https://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/solo_a_star_wars_story

A freaking Deadpool movie with a third of the budget.

Even if you disregard audience scores, that's still pretty staggering Considering where both franchises were just a few years ago.

 

[Frodo]

There are plenty of films that most critics like and general audiences are mixed on. Not every film that has grossed over a billion worldwide was liked by a majority. Or at least for maybe a few it started off that way and then over time more and more people started trash talking it. Transformers Age of Extinction grossed over a billion worldwide only for Transformers The Last Knight to gross like half that worldwide. Granted The Last Jedi is a much better film than any of the Transformers films but still. Also if you read some "positive" reviews on certain films from critics they're not all high praise. It's just simply the critic at the most enjoyed the film hence a fresh review.

That's a good point. I mean, positive reviews certainly don't hurt a film, but there are tons of films in which the general audience is mixed or just don't agree with film critics.

I happened to think that in the case of TLJ, the GA was more mixed on the film than geek pundits and critics were willing to admit.

In my own experience, I found that people who weren't diehard sw fans had mixed views positive and negative, as opposed to there being a consensus of the film being loved by an overwhelming majority with a small minority of not liking it , which was the spin when it first came out.

 

[rocco2216]

Yes, exactly. Like me and a friend of mine count as casual film goers, and while we didn't hate the The Last Jedi, our reaction was basically 'meh.' See I don't think general audiences hated The Last Jedi like a lot of hard core fans. However there are different levels of emotional disdain/dislike towards something like a movie. Half or most of the general public could have simply thought 'meh' as well towards The Last Jedi. So that feeling/level of emotion was enough to make a lot them decide to skip the next Star Wars film or two until another one comes along that knocks it out of the park for them maybe.
One does not have to hate a film in a series to want to skip the next one or two, or simply lose interest entirely in said franchise/series.

 

[Frodo]

Yes, exactly. Like me and a friend of mine count as casual film goers, and while we didn't hate the The Last Jedi, our reaction was basically 'meh.' See I don't think general audiences hated The Last Jedi like a lot of hard core fans. However there are different levels of emotional disdain/dislike towards something like a movie. Half or most of the general public could have simply thought 'meh' as well towards The Last Jedi. So that feeling/level of emotion was enough to make a lot them decide to skip the next Star Wars film or two until another one comes along that knocks it out of the park for them maybe.
One does not have to hate a film in a series to want to skip the next one or two, or simply lose interest entirely in said franchise/series.

Oh yeah totally. The problem was that you had SW fanboys on both sides go throw the gauntlet down the first weekend out claiming it was either " A Classic that will be known as the best Star Wars ever!" or " Its the worst Star Wars film ever made" . As a result the argument became either general audiences loved it or they hated it.

Half the fans thought it was The Dark Knight and the other half thought it was Batman and Robin.

For general audiences, it may have been more like Batman Returns was in 1992. There were people who really liked it, people who didn't like, people who were meh on it, people who were mixed on it etc.

In other words, all over the map as opposed to a consensus.

 

[Aximili86]

And again, I'll just put out there that it'll be pretty entertaining seeing Last Skywalker back here in 18 months chewing ferociously on his own foot when IX makes eleventy-bazillion bucks.

Solo doing as badly as it did is a big deal for the company, no doubt. But all of this "the brand is dead!" type of stuff is hilarious.

 

[Last Skywalker]

And again, I'll just put out there that it'll be pretty entertaining seeing Last Skywalker back here in 18 months chewing ferociously on his own foot when IX makes eleventy-bazillion bucks.

Heard the same things before Solo got released.

Honestly, nobody would be happier if 9 does well, because it will have meant they have fixed the issues and put out a great film. JJ has pulled off miracles before. TFA is proof of that. People casually forget that it wasn't some given that Star Wars would actually fly again after the prequels.

But doing nothing while failing to identify the problem will only continue the downfall of the brand.

Oh, as an aside, one of the reasons I named myself 'The Last Skywalker' is that that's what I believe 9 will be named... and if you were conspiracy minded, you could imagine that might be one of the reasons they were insistent about killing Luke off.

Solo doing as badly as it did is a big deal for the company, no doubt. But all of this "the brand is dead!" type of stuff is hilarious.

"There is no way this ship can sink!"

 

[rocco2216]

The Star Wars brand and Star Wars film brand is not dead but it is broken, or at least badly damaged, and needs to be fixed.
Can it be done? Who knows we'll see. As for Episode 9 I don't see it making more than The Last Jedi. The Last Jedi's opening day and weekend helped it get to 1.3 billion and that was all hype. Episode 9 won't have the hype The Last Jedi had, and probably not even the hype Rogue One had. We'll see though, it should be interesting. I guess the next films after Episode 9 as of now will be Rian Johnson's first film of his planned trilogy and Benioff and Weiss's first film of their planned trilogy.

 

[Aximili86]

You thinking TLJ sucks despite its triumphs and Solo crashing doesn't equate to the brand being "broken".

Wait for a pattern. If there's a pattern, I'm right with you. They're still on four swings, three hits and a miss here.

 

[Last Skywalker]

You thinking TLJ sucks despite its triumphs and Solo crashing doesn't equate to the brand being "broken".

Wait for a pattern. If there's a pattern, I'm right with you. They're still on four swings, three hits and a miss here.

$2b -> $1b -> $1.3b -> $340mil. Splitting by different types of Star Wars movie to make it clearer...

$2b -> $1.3b -> ? Star Wars Saga Films.
$1b -> $340 mil -> CANCELLED. Star Wars Story Films.

I definitely see a pattern.

The moment they retreated back to simply producing Saga Films, the Brand was objectively 'broken'. Whether JJ can put Humpty Dumpty back together again with Episode 9 is the billion dollar question.

 

[Ozbridge]

The moment they retreated back to simply producing Saga Films, the Brand was objectively 'broken'.

If you think Star Wars is broken then it’s broken. But you don’t need to try to make other people here agree with you.