The Rise of Skywalker JJ Abrams is Writing and Directing Episode IX

[Gothamsknight]

It really is shocking how bad TROS was. I felt nothing when watching it, which I attributed to both the movie and the general sense that I was burnt out on the ST discourse so I didn't care anymore. I still feel like that honestly, and luckily The Mandalorian reminded me why I loved Star Wars. But rewatching TROS, man, it's a shame what the finished product was. Bringing Palpatine back felt so forced, the Leia stuff didn't work for me, and everything just felt so rushed and pretty much against everything in TLJ.

 

[henzINNIT]

There is something poetic about TROS and its particular brand of failure. It ensured that if you liked TLJ, you would finally experience the same feeling as those who didn't.

I feel kind of tricked by the PR assertions that JJ loved 'The Last Jedi', and for thinking he really had found a synthesis between the previous films. I don't see that at all in TROS. In hindsight I think he was an awful choice for 9 as he was the only director who would be inclined to walk back from 8 and not forward. I wonder what studio notes he was given by then also.

TROS was made from a place of cowardice, plain and simple.

Yep. The film's defining attribute. The amount of times it pretends to kill characters is mind boggling, and must be a record.

 

[Sian]

I think those of us who liked TLJ specifically hate TROS because putting it simply, it was designed to be the anti TLJ.
It was created partly to satisfy the 'fandom menace' (who also hate it, lol), partly Terrio's wistful 8 year old's self fan fiction, but mostly it was JJ Abrams practically yelling into the aether - or what not - that THIS is what RJ should have done, not THAT!
I suspect Abrams was not happy with much, if not all, that Johnson did. I'm pretty sure he wanted Kylo/Ben Solo to be an unredeemable villain, and that that was precisely why in TFA he had him be Han's killer - to earn him the GA's hate. But it didn't work out quite that way. I'm a Kylo fan, but I'm not alone; DLF's own SW official site held a poll shortly before TROS's release asking people to vote on who they wanted to see the most in the next film, and Kylo Ren won by a whopping 81% . Rey, supposedly the 'hero' everyone was rooting for, got just 5%.
Johnson made Kylo a far more relatable, redeemable figure; this was due to a combination of showing what truly drove him away from Luke and removing the helmet so Driver could act.

Abrams was having none of that. He wanted the audience to adore Rey. So he spends most of TROS building her up into some kind of Jedi goddess, while the helmet's back, and Kylo is strutting around like another Darth Vader - there was actually a scene where he tortured Chewie and it was cut, presumably because DLF thought it was a bit too 'strong'. Rey meanwhile is turned into a saintly figure in snow white who can heal with a touch, who is 'one of their best fighters', is liked by everyone who meets her after five seconds, is adored and venerated by all of the Jedi that went before her, is loved by every male, and every female, has a special bond with Chewie (from the novel), has the unique ability to kill Grandad Sheev on her own ( not even Yoda with 800 years experience could do that), is seven foot tall, can destroy the FO with fireballs from her eyes and bolts of lightning from her - whoops, sorry. That's William Wallace.

TROS practically shoved how worthy Rey is down our throats so much it was embarrassing. I cringed when the Jedi were urging her to 'rise'....er, how come Kylo's grandad had forgotten his flesh and blood was lying down a hole - in stark comparison with ANH and Luke hearing Obi Wan's voice just as he was about to blow up the Death Star. That scene still moves me today.

The OT were exciting, moving and inspiring. The PT told of the tragic downfall of a good man, but even that ended on a hopeful note with the birth of the twins.
The ST ended the entire nine film family saga with killing off ALL of them and replacing them with someone else, purely because it was what Abrams wanted - it's his trademark. He erased the 'original' Star Trek characters and replaced them with his own. He killed off the Skywalkers and replaced them with Rey, and used TROS to hammer home it was because she was a far better human being than their last descendant - the novel even has Kyo's last thoughts that his death had made his life worth something because he had 'given Rey back to the galaxy'. Abrams took a beautiful, stirring, emotive space opera and he RUINED it by turning something incredibly uplifting into something shatteringly depressing. To rub salt in the wound he even made his shining Rey of Hope... Palpatine's descendant....thus making the whole saga, the story of the Skywalkers, completely pointless.
And for what - so he could give TLJ fans the finger. Now that's immature.

 

[BatLobster]

I think those of us who liked TLJ specifically hate TROS because putting it simply, it was designed to be the anti TLJ.
It was created partly to satisfy the 'fandom menace' (who also hate it, lol), partly Terrio's wistful 8 year old's self fan fiction, but mostly it was JJ Abrams practically yelling into the aether - or what not - that THIS is what RJ should have done, not THAT!

I'm gonna push back a little here to make sure we're still in reality and not getting carried away, cause that's not really what happened.

It was announced Abrams had signed on in September of 2017, which means it was probably some time before that. He and Terrio were working on the story for months while TLJ was still in post-production. Abrams pitched it to Bob Iger just as The Last Jedi was released. That's a fact. J. J. Abrams Revealed His Star Wars Episode IX Pitch To Bob Iger Today - Star Wars News Net

Now, sure, Abrams and Terrio may have been reacting to TLJ in some ways on their own, but to say they deliberately were trying to cater to the fandom menace is probably unfair IMO, because they had already made a lot of the major decisions before TLJ was released and there was any sort of backlash. If anything, JJ himself was more on the receiving end of fandom menace hate after TFA came out and everyone was railing against how it was too much of a retread of Ep. IV.

Just calling it like I see it. A big problem with Star Wars discourse IMO is when we get carried away and start twisting things to fit a preconceived notion that doesn't really align with the facts, when it comes to the behind the scenes things and 'why' decisions were made. It's always going to be passionate and super opinionated, which is fine, but I think we should at least acknowledge the facts and not act like every creative decision we didn't agree was a conspiracy to hurt your feelings. It's no worse than how the TLJ haters acted, IMO.

Personally speaking, I was disappointed with IX, but I feel lonely in the sense that I'm a TLJ fan who doesn't really mind the broad stroke decisions (Palpatine, etc.). I just feel that it was executed in a sloppy and lazy way. That's it. I think it had a story with some epic potential and just did in a rushed, haphazard sort of way that did not carry the weight I would've hoped the ninth film in the saga would. Gonna bring Palpatine back? AWESOME. I'm there. I squealed like a child when I saw the teaser. But you've GOT to sell me on it. That opening crawl drop was...not it.

There is something poetic about TROS and its particular brand of failure. It ensured that if you liked TLJ, you would finally experience the same feeling as those who didn't.

I guess for a lot of people, but I can't say that aligns with my experience. When I first saw TLJ I honestly experienced a lot of the negative emotions that the extreme haters did. It was enormously frustrating to see Luke in that state, and I couldn't even really fully invest in other subplots because I was still having trouble processing the Luke stuff. It was jarring. The nobody reveal was also jarring, because I'm very invested in the Skywalker story. I knew that was the point and I immediately knew it was going to be rejected by a lot of people, and I even understood why. I still walked out of the theater knowing that Rian Johnson made a really good, interesting movie- but it took a few viewings to really grow on me as a Star Wars film.

With TROS, it's like I said...I just knew it felt like a subpar blockbuster. I actually went in feeling like I had a pretty good idea of where it was going (and I was right), and I went in embracing the Palpatine direction because I always felt the ST a giant Palpatine-sized hole in the villain department. It was more-so just a crushing feeling of knowing that there was a much better (probably longer) version of this movie somewhere and that this was the version we were stuck with. I'm not saying it exists on the editing room floor, but..yeah. The film gave me a lot of what I "wanted"... but not in the way that I needed it. Pulling off that balance is key. But for me I think it's apples and oranges, when it comes to my experience of TLJ and TROS. Just two very different things.

On the plus side, the score for TROS is tremendous. Credit where its due, if there's one thing we can say consistently delivered in this trilogy-- it's of course, Williams. If I want to view the ST in a positive light, it's always going to be-- we got 3 more Star Wars scores out of John Williams. Something I never would've expected.



This theme single handedly nearly salvages the film for me. Musically, it brings a lot of things together from the saga.

 

[henzINNIT]

I guess for a lot of people, but I can't say that aligns with my experience. When I first saw TLJ I honestly experienced a lot of the negative emotions that the extreme haters did. It was enormously frustrating to see Luke in that state, and I couldn't even really fully invest in other subplots because I was still having trouble processing the Luke stuff. It was jarring. The nobody reveal was also jarring, because I'm very invested in the Skywalker story. I knew that was the point and I immediately knew it was going to be rejected by a lot of people, and I even understood why. I still walked out of the theater knowing that Rian Johnson made a really good, interesting movie- but it took a few viewings to really grow on me as a Star Wars film.

With TROS, it's like I said...I just knew it felt like a subpar blockbuster. I actually went in feeling like I had a pretty good idea of where it was going (and I was right), and I went in embracing the Palpatine direction because I always felt the ST a giant Palpatine-sized hole in the villain department. It was more-so just a crushing feeling of knowing that there was a much better (probably longer) version of this movie somewhere and that this was the version we were stuck with. I'm not saying it exists on the editing room floor, but..yeah. The film gave me a lot of what I "wanted"... but not in the way that I needed it. Pulling off that balance is key. But for me I think it's apples and oranges, when it comes to my experience of TLJ and TROS. Just two very different things.

On the plus side, the score for TROS is tremendous. Credit where its due, if there's one thing we can say consistently delivered in this trilogy-- it's of course, Williams. If I want to view the ST in a positive light, it's always going to be-- we got 3 more Star Wars scores out of John Williams. Something I never would've expected.

This theme single handedly nearly salvages the film for me. Musically, it brings a lot of things together from the saga.

Probably an unhelpful generalization on my part. The fanbase needs less tribalism. My thoughts are pretty similar to yours overall. I too had a jarring first experience with TLJ. I had several issues with the film, some that have softened over time and some that haven't. I still think it could have done with another 'logic' pass on the script to wipe out some cinema sins.

Calling TROS a sub-par blockbuster is pretty accurate. It is rushed but still expensive and a certain level of quality. The thing that tanks it for me though is the damage it does to previous films whilst being only mindless fun. It does actual retcons and is very lazy about it, and that breaks the illusion for me. I like the cast and crew and Williams is a treasure, but the story is undermining itself. I recognize the irony of my complaints being very often the same as those who hated TLJ.

I think in the end I am in the 'No' camp on bringing back Palpatine, but despite this I did embrace the idea at the time. It was not set-up in the slightest but I think you could have made it work. Hard not to enjoy a beloved actor playing a part we love, and bizarrely perfect that he can reprise his role yet again after all these years. I think Palpatine's return and role in TROS is rubbish, but not just because he's back. For me it needed to be written in a way that served the new characters and their story, in a way that tied into the trilogy convincingly, and in a way that doesn't diminish the previous victory in 6. I think it failed on many levels. Not even enough memes for me.

 

[BatLobster]

Probably an unhelpful generalization on my part. The fanbase needs less tribalism. My thoughts are pretty similar to yours overall. I too had a jarring first experience with TLJ. I had several issues with the film, some that have softened over time and some that haven't. I still think it could have done with another 'logic' pass on the script to wipe out some cinema sins.

Calling TROS a sub-par blockbuster is pretty accurate. It is rushed but still expensive and a certain level of quality. The thing that tanks it for me though is the damage it does to previous films whilst being only mindless fun. It does actual retcons and is very lazy about it, and that breaks the illusion for me. I like the cast and crew and Williams is a treasure, but the story is undermining itself. I recognize the irony of my complaints being very often the same as those who hated TLJ.

I think in the end I am in the 'No' camp on bringing back Palpatine, but despite this I did embrace the idea at the time. It was not set-up in the slightest but I think you could have made it work. Hard not to enjoy a beloved actor playing a part we love, and bizarrely perfect that he can reprise his role yet again after all these years. I think Palpatine's return and role in TROS is rubbish, but not just because he's back. For me it needed to be written in a way that served the new characters and their story, in a way that tied into the trilogy convincingly, and in a way that doesn't diminish the previous victory in 6. I think it failed on many levels. Not even enough memes for me.

That's a completely fair take. I agree, even as a diehard McDiarmid-Palps fan, the movie didn't really give me enough juicy stuff to say it was anywhere near on par with his delightfully evil presence in Episodes 3 and 6. He's always a blast to watch, and I liked the horror-ish, Hellraiser sort of take on it. But yeah. It left me wanting. And at the end of the day, I end up feeling like the ST is an unnecessary story. Sort of brings me back to square one though...I think the making Episode 7 the way that they did is what did the most damage in terms of undermining 1-6.

The first few minutes of the movie are what really made me slouch into my theater chair. The combo of revealing Palpatine via opening crawl, to the rushed way the movie starts mid-montage with Kylo, to him just finding the Emperor immediately really took the wind right out of my sails. Le sigh.

I will never understand why the movie couldn't have at least started with some kind of exciting sequence that culminated in with Resistance learning the truth about Exegol and Palpatine, etc. I just have to believe there was a better, more interesting and engaging way to flip that switch and create some intrigue around the idea. I just feel like if I was making that movie, the biggest priority would be...the moment Palpatine is revealed has to be a jaw-dropper, chill down your spine moment. If you're banking your movie on such a huge risk and conceit, you have to make the effort to get people on board.

I understand the idea and reasoning behind the resurrection. I'm on board with the idea of Palpatine being someone who was clinging to life at all costs, in very 'unnatural' ways. We know he was very interested in cloning, in manipulating life. The nod to the Plagueis speech. It all makes perfect sense to me. The problem is I didn't want all of that shoved down my throat in the first 5 minutes of the film. It definitely makes the film feel reactionary, which is not something you want to be feeling.

 

[Sian]

Some rumours that were around during TLJ production, during the release and afterwards....
Snoke was a former apprentice of Palpatine, named Gallux Rax.
Rey had actually been one of Luke's proteges; she had actually had Force training and her memory had been wiped.
Snoke had once been beautiful, with angelic looks....notice he had striking blue eyes, perhaps a remnant. If he had 'appeared' in that form in Ben's mind when he was a child, it would go a long way to explaining why a lonely little boy had been drawn to him.
Either Snoke or Palpatine's evil spirit wanted to possess Kylo or Rey.

The 'Rey idea' doesn't work for me much, tbh, although it could explain her ability to use a Jedi mind trick without any training, when Luke took several years. But the other ideas have potential.
Having Snoke as Palpatine's apprentice would have been a link to SW's original 'big bad' that made sense. And having Palpatine lingering on in the ether as an evil spirit looking for a host is much more credible than him being a 'cloned body'.

In any case, from a personal level, Abrams and Terrio killed off the last of the Skywalkers and replaced him with the last Palpatine. And I'm sorry guys, but I will NEVER love SW again, because of what you've done. Maybe it's for the best, I'm getting older and the future belongs to the young.

 

[BatLobster]

Well, if we're talking rumors, remember all the rumor's about how TFA was going to open with a shot of Luke's hand floating through space?

Apparently in one of the recent issues of the Darth Vader, Vader goes to Exegol and Palpatine shows him his Sith temple there. And guess what's shown there? Luke's hand.

Darth Vader #11: Luke’s severed hand introduces possibilities for future Star Wars stories

Cue theories about how Luke Skywalker's blood was used in the creation of Snoke...or *gasp*, Rey's father!

To be honest though, while this kind of retconning is goofy, I always sort of did view the Skywalker bloodline as something Palpatine may have actually created as per the inferences in the Plagueis speech. So you can say being a Skywalker is like being a Palpatine...from a certain point of view...

We already pretty much know that Palpatine was interested in harvesting midis of Force strong beings for cloning purposes because of Baby Yoda/Mando. It's possible that whatever connection he has with the Skywalker blood/the high midichlorian count makes it a somewhat better host for him.

I'm actually pretty attached to my own theory that Palpatine's interest in Anakin primarily had to do with grooming him to be a host via essence transfer (IE Plagueis' immortality track). But that goes out the window when Anakin becomes more machine than man. So what then? He sets his sights on Luke of course. I genuinely believe this theory holds up, and if there's one thing I actually like in TROS, it's how it finally makes some sense of the whole "strike me down" thing which aligns perfectly with that theory IMO.

 

[henzINNIT]

That's a completely fair take. I agree, even as a diehard McDiarmid-Palps fan, the movie didn't really give me enough juicy stuff to say it was anywhere near on par with his delightfully evil presence in Episodes 3 and 6. He's always a blast to watch, and I liked the horror-ish, Hellraiser sort of take on it. But yeah. It left me wanting. And at the end of the day, I end up feeling like the ST is an unnecessary story. Sort of brings me back to square one though...I think the making Episode 7 the way that they did is what did the most damage in terms of undermining 1-6.

The first few minutes of the movie are what really made me slouch into my theater chair. The combo of revealing Palpatine via opening crawl, to the rushed way the movie starts mid-montage with Kylo, to him just finding the Emperor immediately really took the wind right out of my sails. Le sigh.

I will never understand why the movie couldn't have at least started with some kind of exciting sequence that culminated in with Resistance learning the truth about Exegol and Palpatine, etc. I just have to believe there was a better, more interesting and engaging way to flip that switch and create some intrigue around the idea. I just feel like if I was making that movie, the biggest priority would be...the moment Palpatine is revealed has to be a jaw-dropper, chill down your spine moment. If you're banking your movie on such a huge risk and conceit, you have to make the effort to get people on board.

I understand the idea and reasoning behind the resurrection. I'm on board with the idea of Palpatine being someone who was clinging to life at all costs, in very 'unnatural' ways. We know he was very interested in cloning, in manipulating life. The nod to the Plagueis speech. It all makes perfect sense to me. The problem is I didn't want all of that shoved down my throat in the first 5 minutes of the film. It definitely makes the film feel reactionary, which is not something you want to be feeling.

The opening of TROS is so bizarre. Right from the start of the crawl too. I would understand jumping straight to 'Palpatine is back' if it was to use him prominently in the film, but he barely appears and could have easily been the end-game macguffin.

I like ghoulish Palps and his spirit clinging to existence in unnatural ways. I think JJ was smart to pluck that line out of episode 3 and run with it. The Sith planet of ancient statues and creepy technology was fun too. But yeah, half-baked.

Rey should have been 'made' the same way Anakin was if you needed to tie her into Palpatine. That is a more elegant retcon to me. Feels more like it would tie things together instead of creating inconsistencies.

 

[Brother Jack]

I maintain Palpatine should only have been brought back at the climax of the movie, and the plot was about Kylo's pursuit of bringing him back vs. Rey trying to stop him. Think Raiders of the Lost Ark. That is about the only way I can think of for the resurrection to happen without undermining the victory in ROTJ, because it would be giving agency to the characters of this trilogy rather than it happening off screen without any explanation.

 

[BatLobster]

I maintain Palpatine should only have been brought back at the climax of the movie, and the plot was about Kylo's pursuit of bringing him back vs. Rey trying to stop him. Think Raiders of the Lost Ark. That is about the only way I can think of for the resurrection to happen without undermining the victory in ROTJ, because it would be giving agency to the characters of this trilogy rather than it happening off screen without any explanation.

I would've been good with that. That's kind of what I expected it to be initially. We got a kinda/sorta version of that with him being weak and on machine life support at the beginning of the film...but that's pretty undermined by him rising an entire Star Destroyer fleet from under ice. I don't get why they did that.

Although, I'm not sure it would make sense for Kylo to be actively be trying to bring back a new master to serve. I don't think that aligns with what he was proposing to Rey in TLJ about a new future for the galaxy beyond the Jedi and Sith.

I think it would have to be a lot of 3 dimensional chess going on and a lot of competing agendas to make it work. The Emperor's potential return would mean a lot of different things to different people, even within The First Order.

Maybe you could've also had some of those 'broadcasts' happen throughout the film, prophesying his own return (but as holocron recordings) so you get McDiarmid's presence in there and the idea that he's able to still pull strings even when he's dead. But keep it an open question if he really is/can actually return from the grave. And then eventually it's through the power of the dyad coming together, that's the final domino to fall where he's finally restored to physical form, sort of like in the film. Only that's the lynchpin of his endgame and not just an "oh well that's convenient!".

 

[Brother Jack]

Although, I'm not sure it would make sense for Kylo to be actively be trying to bring back a new master to serve. I don't think that aligns with what he was proposing to Rey in TLJ about a new future for the galaxy beyond the Jedi and Sith.

Yeah that would be the main problem with the idea, figuring out Kylo's motivation to bring him back at all after becoming his own master in TLJ. Maybe Hux would be involved as a way to usurp Kylo, or maybe Kylo would think in his arrogance that he could control a resurrected Emperor somehow and use him as the final weapon needed to defeat the Resistance. I dunno.

 

[henzINNIT]

Seems like a logical plan for Hux. Kylo becomes a dead end and Hux strikes his own deal in order to have Sheev usurp Kylo.

I maintain that the Knights of Ren were one of the cooler threads teased in 7 and criminally under-utilized in 9. Six potential characters there, possible former students of Luke Skywalker. They weren't even used as interesting henchmen, they could have easily been Stormtroopers.

 

[Sian]

Well, if we're talking rumors, remember all the rumor's about how TFA was going to open with a shot of Luke's hand floating through space?

Apparently in one of the recent issues of the Darth Vader, Vader goes to Exegol and Palpatine shows him his Sith temple there. And guess what's shown there? Luke's hand.

Darth Vader #11: Luke’s severed hand introduces possibilities for future Star Wars stories

Cue theories about how Luke Skywalker's blood was used in the creation of Snoke...or *gasp*, Rey's father!

To be honest though, while this kind of retconning is goofy, I always sort of did view the Skywalker bloodline as something Palpatine may have actually created as per the inferences in the Plagueis speech. So you can say being a Skywalker is like being a Palpatine...from a certain point of view...

We already pretty much know that Palpatine was interested in harvesting midis of Force strong beings for cloning purposes because of Baby Yoda/Mando. It's possible that whatever connection he has with the Skywalker blood/the high midichlorian count makes it a somewhat better host for him.

I'm actually pretty attached to my own theory that Palpatine's interest in Anakin primarily had to do with grooming him to be a host via essence transfer (IE Plagueis' immortality track). But that goes out the window when Anakin becomes more machine than man. So what then? He sets his sights on Luke of course. I genuinely believe this theory holds up, and if there's one thing I actually like in TROS, it's how it finally makes some sense of the whole "strike me down" thing which aligns perfectly with that theory IMO.

I'm waiting for them to announce Rey was actually created from Luke's hand, so she can add being an 'actual Skywalker' to her many talents!