The Rise of Skywalker JJ Abrams is Writing and Directing Episode IX

[Donner]

I wound have loved to have seen a Finn/Poe relationship. The former spice runner and Stormtrooper working to free the minds of the FO's army and turning them against the FO would have been something to see. And we all would have been spared Finn running around crying Rey for two films.

But Disney needs that international money and some countries can't handle LGBTQ relationships. Pity.

 

[henzINNIT]

It's not about not being resistance affiliated. It's about that not being what his character's story is about, like I think the movie makes it. To me, they could unfold a story where Finn starts off the story conflicted about if he wants to help or not, not outright running away, but thinking about it. He can be working with the resistance in TLJ, but his main story arc not be joining the resistance. After he wakes up, he can be conflicted and torn between wanting to leave and helping Poe and the others. He eventually agrees to help, and tells them that the information they need is in the stormtrooper training facility, which only Finn, among them, knows the location of, being a former stormtrooper. He and Poe, and/or Rose or some version of that character if you want to use her (personally I think it makes sense to build on the bond between and Finn and Poe moreso than introducing a new character for Finn to bond with), break into the facility, Finn having a solemn moment where he has to wear the stormtrooper armor, in that Finn sees children being brought in by the First Order for training, and Finn begins to feel a sense responsibility for them and tries to rescue them. Now, the conclusion of this Ep 8 story can either be that they get out and this drives and sense of what Finn wants to do with his life, or he fails, and feels enraged and drives himself to take vengeance on the first order. The first option I think allows more for an affiliation with the resistance, without that concept driving his character. I think the 3rd movie could build on this more.

I was suggesting that Finn has no more of a reason to care than he did at the end of TFA. TLJ is the movie that decided he really only cares about Rey, personally. Why would I buy that he really cares at the end of this movie, after less time with characters, than he had in TFA, if TLJ would have me believe that after TFA he still only really cares about Rey?

I disagree. I think everything from the Kylo quest, Rey's story, Poe's story, Finn's concept, was basically a soft reboot, from what I remember reading/hearing. Maybe not thematically or something. I think very little in TLJ is needed for those things. Basically, to me, the pertinent info is moreso that Kylo took over the first order and killed Snoke, Rose exists and bonded with Finn, and Luke died.It doesn't really. TLJ is the movie that decides the First Order are basically a near Empire strength in takeover of the galaxy. Yes, TFA has the new republic planets seemingly wiped out. But that doesn't have to mean the first order are the empire and resistance are the rebels, again, needlessly. TLJ could've had a first order that put all of their eggs into the starkiller base basket, be trying to grasp for control in a galaxy thrown into chaos by the new republic's destruction, and the resistance fighting against them in it, making this more a tug of war for the galaxy. TLJ didn't do that. It opted outright for the repetitive rebels vs empire concept again.

Your idea for Finn in 8 sounds fun enough. I think a lot of us had higher hopes for Finn going undercover in the TLJ trailers. It's really static outside of plotty stuff though. Finn does more but what is his growth in the end? The crux is still 'do I stay or do I go?' which I think is less interesting than his arc in TLJ. My bigger point though is that your ideas could have easily been used in 9. A similar story was used in DOTF, sparked simply by Finn recognizing a fallen trooper. That story should definitely have happened, I just disagree that any of this was ruined by the events of TLJ.

I might have leaned even harder into this story. Like, how about in 9 the heroes land on a planet and discover the entire population have been conditioned by the First Order. Seems a logical extension of the villain's methods and spares us another planet destroying weapon. This can be the big macguffin, a device that they are using to make people compliant, and the heroes can hijack this device and use it to de-program the FO's armies.

What you might remember hearing/reading about DOTF sounds like it could be off. It's a good read, worth checking out. It doesn't 'reboot' TLJ in any sense whatsoever. The script was drafted before TLJ was finished and released, so it is ludicrous to think they were already course-correcting.

So TFA's rebel/empire dynamic was totally fine and good, and it was TLJ that really ruined things by doing that too? Ironic as TLJ is the film constantly criticized for not following-on properly. But, in this instance, it should have completely thrown out what TFA established.

I wound have loved to have seen a Finn/Poe relationship. The former spice runner and Stormtrooper working to free the minds of the FO's army and turning them against the FO would have been something to see. And we all would have been spared Finn running around crying Rey for two films.

But Disney needs that international money and some countries can't handle LGBTQ relationships. Pity.

Finn & Poe wouldn't be my first choice, just because I think Finn was clearly attracted and attached to Rey in TFA. The pair had great chemistry though so I would would have been down for that too. As ugly as it sounds, I think Finn ending up with either of them may have been off the cards. Disney are only interested in progress that is a guaranteed cash cow.

 

[Donner]

Finn & Poe wouldn't be my first choice, just because I think Finn was clearly attracted and attached to Rey in TFA. The pair had great chemistry though so I would would have been down for that too. As ugly as it sounds, I think Finn ending up with either of them may have been off the cards. Disney are only interested in progress that is a guaranteed cash cow.

I found Finn wildly annoying in TFA because of his relationship with Rey and how he acted around her. I liked his scenes with Poe more. I saw the Finn/Rey thing as brother and sister type and with Poe, a potential love interest. But instead of exploring even the friendship between Finn and Poe more, they stuck Finn with Rose and then Jannah, neither of which pairing was organic to me. I just don't get forcing romance on characters that could easily just be single and left alone.

 

[fan4stic]

Your idea for Finn in 8 sounds fun enough. I think a lot of us had higher hopes for Finn going undercover in the TLJ trailers. It's really static outside of plotty stuff though. Finn does more but what is his growth in the end? The crux is still 'do I stay or do I go?' which I think is less interesting than his arc in TLJ. My bigger point though is that your ideas could have easily been used in 9. A similar story was used in DOTF, sparked simply by Finn recognizing a fallen trooper. That story should definitely have happened, I just disagree that any of this was ruined by the events of TLJ.

Depending on the route take with the story, either the kids escape and Finn feels a sense of fulfillment and is driven to make this his mission. Or he fails, and is driven by revenge against the first order and the idea that they won't let those they take really change or become something more. It's not about staying or going, as he already agrees to stay at the beginning of the movie, in both versions actually. In this idea, I think Finn's personal connections beyond Rey are given more weight from the jump, instead of being handwaved, and his overarching story is about whether he's worthy of a life or capable of being more.

Not ruined. Avoided. It could've been done after TLJ, in the last movie of trilogy, with no build up to Finn caring about the stormtroopers or developing his feelings about it in general in the movie before. It's not impossible. But I'd still think it'd essentially be soft rebooting.

What you might remember hearing/reading about DOTF sounds like it could be off. It's a good read, worth checking out. It doesn't 'reboot' TLJ in any sense whatsoever. The script was drafted before TLJ was finished and released, so it is ludicrous to think they were already course-correcting.

I didn't say course correcting. I said soft rebooting. Not based on fan perception, but based, potentially, on a strucure of story and character directions.

Sudden quest for Kylo.

Sudden concept of Rey rebelling against the jedi perceptions. And giving Rey a thing against Kylo.

Sudden Poe and Rey romance.

Sudden Finn being driven to turn the stormtroopers.

Sudden concept of Hux wanting to be force sensitive.

New things introduced, purely in that draft, for the sake of having story and character drives.

So TFA's rebel/empire dynamic was totally fine and good, and it was TLJ that really ruined things by doing that too? Ironic as TLJ is the film constantly criticized for not following-on properly. But, in this instance, it should have completely thrown out what TFA established.

No. Because the thing here is: The First Order isn't shown or said to have control of the galaxy. TLJ is the movie that starts spinning that. First Order was a shallow Empire shell in TFA. It looked and seemed like the Empire, but it's not an the empire, as it's not an empire in general. They don't have control of the galaxy. Both movies can be not good in different ways, to me. I think JJ's movie puts out shallow recreations of concepts and beats. Guys, look, it's the death star, but unlike the death star which the plot of ANH hinges around and is about defeating, it comes up in the second half and then a way to defeat it is quickly worked in. Hey guys, look, it's the empire, except their structure of power isn't developed, and they have no real semblance of control of the galaxy. TLJ could've given it something, added weight, done something different. Instead it... actually had it be what JJ's movie was shallowly making it look like with things looking like the empire, but didn't actually have it be like in the story of the movie.

 

[Sian]

Depending on the route take with the story, either the kids escape and Finn feels a sense of fulfillment and is driven to make this his mission. Or he fails, and is driven by revenge against the first order and the idea that they won't let those they take really change or become something more. It's not about staying or going, as he already agrees to stay at the beginning of the movie, in both versions actually. In this idea, I think Finn's personal connections beyond Rey are given more weight from the jump, instead of being handwaved, and his overarching story is about whether he's worthy of a life or capable of being more.

Not ruined. Avoided. It could've been done after TLJ, in the last movie of trilogy, with no build up to Finn caring about the stormtroopers or developing his feelings about it in general in the movie before. It's not impossible. But I'd still think it'd essentially be soft rebooting.
I didn't say course correcting. I said soft rebooting. Not based on fan perception, but based, potentially, on a strucure of story and character directions.

Sudden quest for Kylo.

Sudden concept of Rey rebelling against the jedi perceptions. And giving Rey a thing against Kylo.

Sudden Poe and Rey romance.

Sudden Finn being driven to turn the stormtroopers.

Sudden concept of Hux wanting to be force sensitive.

New things introduced, purely in that draft, for the sake of having story and character drives.No. Because the thing here is: The First Order isn't shown or said to have control of the galaxy. TLJ is the movie that starts spinning that. First Order was a shallow Empire shell in TFA. It looked and seemed like the Empire, but it's not an the empire, as it's not an empire in general. They don't have control of the galaxy. Both movies can be not good in different ways, to me. I think JJ's movie puts out shallow recreations of concepts and beats. Guys, look, it's the death star, but unlike the death star which the plot of ANH hinges around and is about defeating, it comes up in the second half and then a way to defeat it is quickly worked in. Hey guys, look, it's the empire, except their structure of power isn't developed, and they have no real semblance of control of the galaxy. TLJ could've given it something, added weight, done something different. Instead it... actually had it be what JJ's movie was shallowly making it look like with things looking like the empire, but didn't actually have it be like in the story of the movie.

Which is why I was hoping we would get more of a shades of grey story, rather like in Princess Mononoke where no one was entirely good or bad. I think Rian might have gone that way if he'd directed all of them.

I don't want to be offensive here...but I think JJ Abrams wanted the FO to be more akin to the Nazis; he's Jewish and this perhaps, was why he wanted Kylo Ren as an unredeemable villain. Whereas Lucas used lots of different things, both real and fantastical, as inspiration for the OT.
LOTR, Flash Gordon and the Roman Empire were among them.

One thing I have to say....I wonder what might have happened if Kylo HAD left the FO and gone with Rey?

 

[henzINNIT]

I found Finn wildly annoying in TFA because of his relationship with Rey and how he acted around her. I liked his scenes with Poe more. I saw the Finn/Rey thing as brother and sister type and with Poe, a potential love interest. But instead of exploring even the friendship between Finn and Poe more, they stuck Finn with Rose and then Jannah, neither of which pairing was organic to me. I just don't get forcing romance on characters that could easily just be single and left alone.

That's fair. Finn's kind of got a schoolboy crush on Rey and I can see how that might be grating.

I didn't mind Rose so much, but I was really disappointed when TROS had nothing for Finn but another new potential girlfriend, and even further detached from the main plot. And Poe has girlfriend side-quest too. It's like female characters were invented for that film just to assure us that neither Finn or Poe are gay.

Depending on the route take with the story, either the kids escape and Finn feels a sense of fulfillment and is driven to make this his mission. Or he fails, and is driven by revenge against the first order and the idea that they won't let those they take really change or become something more. It's not about staying or going, as he already agrees to stay at the beginning of the movie, in both versions actually. In this idea, I think Finn's personal connections beyond Rey are given more weight from the jump, instead of being handwaved, and his overarching story is about whether he's worthy of a life or capable of being more.

Not ruined. Avoided. It could've been done after TLJ, in the last movie of trilogy, with no build up to Finn caring about the stormtroopers or developing his feelings about it in general in the movie before. It's not impossible. But I'd still think it'd essentially be soft rebooting.

The episode 8 Finn story as-is is already about him discovering that he is capable of being more. He's a grunt that defected and became a rebel hero, fighting Captain Phasma on the FO capital ship. It does more than that also. Whether he's 'worthy of life' seems a bit dark and vague. Could you elaborate on that?

It's false that there would be no build up. Finn's story is that of a defecting trooper becoming a hero and it echoes through TFA and TLJ. Your standards on what constitutes a 'soft reboot' are bizarre. A new development in a sequel doesn't have to be sign-posted directly in the preceding chapter. I'll elaborate further below.

I didn't say course correcting. I said soft rebooting. Not based on fan perception, but based, potentially, on a strucure of story and character directions.

Sudden quest for Kylo.

Sudden concept of Rey rebelling against the jedi perceptions. And giving Rey a thing against Kylo.

Sudden Poe and Rey romance.

Sudden Finn being driven to turn the stormtroopers.

Sudden concept of Hux wanting to be force sensitive.

New things introduced, purely in that draft, for the sake of having story and character drives.

This is not soft rebooting. The frequent use of 'sudden' does not make these plot elements rebooting. I'll demonstrate:

Kylo's quest is consistent. He wanted to finish what Vader started, and as of the end of TLJ he has successfully taken control of the FO and we last see him alone with nothing. DOTF picks up with Kylo Ren still chasing power and purpose, becoming more of a monster in the process. This is what a sequel does. Not a soft reboot.

Rey challenging the rules of the Jedi is consistent. There were hints of natural darkness in her, and she's gotten by mostly on intuition and pluck so far. More importantly, we see that Luke tried to restart the Jedi order and it failed much the same way as it did before. Rey has every reason to be critical of the weird rules of the Jedi, and she is supposed to grow beyond their mistakes. Not a soft reboot.

Rey and Poe met at the very end of TLJ. Any relationship they had in 9 would have been a new development and presumably a soft reboot by your criteria.

Finn inspiring others to fight on Coruscant is the logical extension of his arc after being radicalized himself in TLJ. Him recognizing a dead Stormtrooper, and then refusing to kill Stormtroopers, instead defeating them and demanding they go and discover their names, is consistent. Not a soft reboot.

Hux becoming obsessed with force powers is consistent. He's been routinely slapped around by his cohorts and their magic. He's a weasel fascist who wants power. Not a soft reboot.

Something new in the script for episode 9 is not automatic 'soft rebooting'.

No. Because the thing here is: The First Order isn't shown or said to have control of the galaxy. TLJ is the movie that starts spinning that. First Order was a shallow Empire shell in TFA. It looked and seemed like the Empire, but it's not an the empire, as it's not an empire in general. They don't have control of the galaxy. Both movies can be not good in different ways, to me. I think JJ's movie puts out shallow recreations of concepts and beats. Guys, look, it's the death star, but unlike the death star which the plot of ANH hinges around and is about defeating, it comes up in the second half and then a way to defeat it is quickly worked in. Hey guys, look, it's the empire, except their structure of power isn't developed, and they have no real semblance of control of the galaxy. TLJ could've given it something, added weight, done something different. Instead it... actually had it be what JJ's movie was shallowly making it look like with things looking like the empire, but didn't actually have it be like in the story of the movie.

Isn't this just my previous point in a nutshell? TFA does something half-way, non-committal and we love it because there's so much potential. But TLJ suffers for using the pieces left over and staying in that lane.

I don't agree that the First Order were shown to be a shell of the Empire in TFA. They seem to have infinite resources. The leader isn't even near Starkiller Base so it's safe to assume he's well protected elsewhere. They wipe out the New Republic quick and there is no-one but Leia's Resistance fighting back in the end. That's pretty stupid but that's what is shown.

 

[Sian]

I wound have loved to have seen a Finn/Poe relationship. The former spice runner and Stormtrooper working to free the minds of the FO's army and turning them against the FO would have been something to see. And we all would have been spared Finn running around crying Rey for two films.

But Disney needs that international money and some countries can't handle LGBTQ relationships. Pity.

So would I, but I did read somewhere that JB wasn't keen, although I think OI was.

 

[fan4stic]

The episode 8 Finn story as-is is already about him discovering that he is capable of being more. He's a grunt that defected and became a rebel hero, fighting Captain Phasma on the FO capital ship. It does more than that also. Whether he's 'worthy of life' seems a bit dark and vague. Could you elaborate on that?

It's false that there would be no build up. Finn's story is that of a defecting trooper becoming a hero and it echoes through TFA and TLJ. Your standards on what constitutes a 'soft reboot' are bizarre. A new development in a sequel doesn't have to be sign-posted directly in the preceding chapter. I'll elaborate further below.

I didn't say that wasn't the concept they were going for, but I think it wasn't strongly written and how they did it was repitive and not interesting and/or imaginative. Elaboration: I think TFA showcases that Finn feels a sense of shame at being a stormtrooper. There's a sense of lack of value of himself in that idea, to me. Expanding on that idea, the idea of him wanting to be more, how he feels and reflects on his past, I think is a very interesting aspect of that character to explore, that I think TLJ doesn't really do a lot.

I disagree with that. What your talking about is an easy, lame build on that concept, vague. It's basically Han Solo's ANH arc stretched out into 2 movies. Repetitive. Nothing in that builds, from a story and direct character drive place, to leading a stormtrooper rebellion. That's not in the movie. It's a vague becoming a hero arc. That could go to any other character. It's not about his life experiences as a stormtrooper.

This is not soft rebooting. The frequent use of 'sudden' does not make these plot elements rebooting. I'll demonstrate:

Kylo's quest is consistent. He wanted to finish what Vader started, and as of the end of TLJ he has successfully taken control of the FO and we last see him alone with nothing. DOTF picks up with Kylo Ren still chasing power and purpose, becoming more of a monster in the process. This is what a sequel does. Not a soft reboot.

Rey challenging the rules of the Jedi is consistent. There were hints of natural darkness in her, and she's gotten by mostly on intuition and pluck so far. More importantly, we see that Luke tried to restart the Jedi order and it failed much the same way as it did before. Rey has every reason to be critical of the weird rules of the Jedi, and she is supposed to grow beyond their mistakes. Not a soft reboot.

Rey and Poe met at the very end of TLJ. Any relationship they had in 9 would have been a new development and presumably a soft reboot by your criteria.

Finn inspiring others to fight on Coruscant is the logical extension of his arc after being radicalized himself in TLJ. Him recognizing a dead Stormtrooper, and then refusing to kill Stormtroopers, instead defeating them and demanding they go and discover their names, is consistent. Not a soft reboot.

Hux becoming obsessed with force powers is consistent. He's been routinely slapped around by his cohorts and their magic. He's a weasel fascist who wants power. Not a soft reboot.

Something new in the script for episode 9 is not automatic 'soft rebooting'.

I'm sorry but no. That quest has no build up to that movie. There's no lead in to him going on a quest to an ancient sith guy. It's a sudden introduction of a story for a character.

Pluck and darkness mean nothing to this. Nothing in the previous movies showcase her being against the jedi way of doing things. I think you're looking at this from like an abstract perspective of: "it could happen." Which isn't about what I'm saying. It could. But it's not developed or built up as a concept for this character's perspective, until that movie. Even the failure of the jedi is basically a nothing connection, as nowhere in the movie is it said or shown how this version of the jedi failed, and how Luke tried to recreate the jedi order that led it to failure. Nothing Luke does leads to the jedi destruction there, that led to the jedi destruction in the prequels. That he even tried to recreate it exactly is headcanon. It's not in the movie.

Any drive to pursue anything stormtrooper based isn't in TLJ. I think this is another abstract concept, where: "the character could do this" It's not the point. Nothing in the previous movie had established that Finn has any interest in pursuing helping other stormtroopers get away from the First Order.

Similar as above, with Hux. New concept introduced for the character. It could happen. But it's not developed or built up as anything this character has an interest in.

Isn't this just my previous point in a nutshell? TFA does something half-way, non-committal and we love it because there's so much potential. But TLJ suffers for using the pieces left over and staying in that lane.

I don't agree that the First Order were shown to be a shell of the Empire in TFA. They seem to have infinite resources. The leader isn't even near Starkiller Base so it's safe to assume he's well protected elsewhere. They wipe out the New Republic quick and there is no-one but Leia's Resistance fighting back in the end. That's pretty stupid but that's what is shown.

I don't love it. I didn't then. I don't now. I've been critical of TFA since after it came out. TLJ basically did more of what I didn't like, and, mostly, continued the repitive story elements of it. I can blame both.

Nothing shows them takeover the galaxy, or to have empire level strength. There'd be no reason for them to have that and TLJ doesn't give a reason for them to have that. What you're speaking on is assumptions about things. TLJ could have developed that they put all their eggs into the starkiller base basket, and now were messed up for it, now being involved in a tug of war for the galaxy against the resistance. It could've done something different. It didn't. I blame it for it's own choices. And I blame TFA for it's own choices. TFA didn't tie TLJ's hands with that.

 

[henzINNIT]

I didn't say that wasn't the concept they were going for, but I think it wasn't strongly written and how they did it was repitive and not interesting and/or imaginative. Elaboration: I think TFA showcases that Finn feels a sense of shame at being a stormtrooper. There's a sense of lack of value of himself in that idea, to me. Expanding on that idea, the idea of him wanting to be more, how he feels and reflects on his past, I think is a very interesting aspect of that character to explore, that I think TLJ doesn't really do a lot.

I disagree with that. What your talking about is an easy, lame build on that concept, vague. It's basically Han Solo's ANH arc stretched out into 2 movies. Repetitive. Nothing in that builds, from a story and direct character drive place, to leading a stormtrooper rebellion. That's not in the movie. It's a vague becoming a hero arc. That could go to any other character. It's not about his life experiences as a stormtrooper.

It's in TLJ ('Rebel scum') but if you didn't like it that is fair enough.

Finn's arc isn't all that similar to Han's beyond becoming a Rebel. They start off in different places and have different flaws to overcome.

I'm sorry but no. That quest has no build up to that movie. There's no lead in to him going on a quest to an ancient sith guy. It's a sudden introduction of a story for a character.

Pluck and darkness mean nothing to this. Nothing in the previous movies showcase her being against the jedi way of doing things. I think you're looking at this from like an abstract perspective of: "it could happen." Which isn't about what I'm saying. It could. But it's not developed or built up as a concept for this character's perspective, until that movie. Even the failure of the jedi is basically a nothing connection, as nowhere in the movie is it said or shown how this version of the jedi failed, and how Luke tried to recreate the jedi order that led it to failure. Nothing Luke does leads to the jedi destruction there, that led to the jedi destruction in the prequels. That he even tried to recreate it exactly is headcanon. It's not in the movie.

Any drive to pursue anything stormtrooper based isn't in TLJ. I think this is another abstract concept, where: "the character could do this" It's not the point. Nothing in the previous movie had established that Finn has any interest in pursuing helping other stormtroopers get away from the First Order.

Similar as above, with Hux. New concept introduced for the character. It could happen. But it's not developed or built up as anything this character has an interest in.

So I demonstrate how these characters' pasts inform their next steps in DOTF, how they're extensions of what we have seen so far, but it's too abstract because the events weren't directly teased in a prior film?

Kylo can't go on a quest to learn from an ancient being because he didn't write it on his to-do list in TLJ? Doesn't that sound ridiculous to you? How is it more sudden than Luke seeking out Yoda in ESB? As I said before, your standards for 'soft reboot' are way off.

I don't love it. I didn't then. I don't now. I've been critical of TFA since after it came out. TLJ basically did more of what I didn't like, and, mostly, continued the repitive story elements of it. I can blame both.

Nothing shows them takeover the galaxy, or to have empire level strength. There'd be no reason for them to have that and TLJ doesn't give a reason for them to have that. What you're speaking on is assumptions about things. TLJ could have developed that they put all their eggs into the starkiller base basket, and now were messed up for it, now being involved in a tug of war for the galaxy against the resistance. It could've done something different. It didn't. I blame it for it's own choices. And I blame TFA for it's own choices. TFA didn't tie TLJ's hands with that.

There's every reason to assume the First Order has Empire level strength. They had the resources to build a weapon even larger and more powerful than the Death Star and we know the leader isn't based there. They weren't portrayed as some scrappy terrorist cell, they were shown to be vast and oppressive.

 

[fan4stic]

It's in TLJ ('Rebel scum') but if you didn't like it that is fair enough.

Finn's arc isn't all that similar to Han's beyond becoming a Rebel. They start off in different places and have different flaws to overcome.

I said, "I think it wasn't strongly written and how they did it was repitive and not interesting and/or imaginative." and, "that I think TLJ doesn't really do a lot.", not that it doesn't do it at all.

I said vague and basically, about it, as a build, not as a start, and that was about the notion of someone becoming a hero.

So I demonstrate how these characters' pasts inform their next steps in DOTF, how they're extensions of what we have seen so far, but it's too abstract because the events weren't directly teased in a prior film?

Kylo can't go on a quest to learn from an ancient being because he didn't write it on his to-do list in TLJ? Doesn't that sound ridiculous to you? How is it more sudden than Luke seeking out Yoda in ESB? As I said before, your standards for 'soft reboot' are way off.

How they could inform this isn't my point. How their characters drives and builds and perspectives don't lead into that are.

Like I said, it could happen. But nothing about Kylo going on a quest or things in the interest of going out and looking for power were things that were developed in the previous. It's not huge. But it's still a new story, for the character, in the interest of creating a conflict.

There's every reason to assume the First Order has Empire level strength. They had the resources to build a weapon even larger and more powerful than the Death Star and we know the leader isn't based there. They weren't portrayed as some scrappy terrorist cell, they were shown to be vast and oppressive.

That's an assumption. TLJ could've had it be otherwise. It didn't. It kept with the repetition and unimaginative-ness, to me. And it certainly wasn't developed to have taken over the galaxy or near taken over. That's a TLJ thing straight out.

 

[henzINNIT]

I said, "I think it wasn't strongly written and how they did it was repitive and not interesting and/or imaginative." and, "that I think TLJ doesn't really do a lot.", not that it doesn't do it at all.

I said vague and basically, about it, as a build, not as a start, and that was about the notion of someone becoming a hero.

Indeed, and I disagree. Your suggestions for an alternate 8 are fine but wouldn't supplant what we got instead.

You said Finn's arc was essentially just Han's again and I disagree. He had different weaknesses of character to overcome. The only way they're similar is that they end with them on the good side.

How they could inform this isn't my point. How their characters drives and builds and perspectives don't lead into that are.

Like I said, it could happen. But nothing about Kylo going on a quest or things in the interest of going out and looking for power were things that were developed in the previous. It's not huge. But it's still a new story, for the character, in the interest of creating a conflict.

And I'm not buying it. You chose the words 'soft reboot' and I believe you are applying the term incorrectly.

That's an assumption. TLJ could've had it be otherwise. It didn't. It kept with the repetition and unimaginative-ness, to me. And it certainly wasn't developed to have taken over the galaxy or near taken over. That's a TLJ thing straight out.

It's not an assumption. I've looked at the proof which is the galaxy as TFA depicted it. The Republic wiped out by JJ's lazy shorthand empire. Regardless, we agree that the dynamic was unimaginative, and I even agree that TFA was vague enough that 8 could have veered out of that lane if inclined, so it's not much of a disagreement really.

 

[fan4stic]

Indeed, and I disagree. Your suggestions for an alternate 8 are fine but wouldn't supplant what we got instead.

You said Finn's arc was essentially just Han's again and I disagree. He had different weaknesses of character to overcome. The only way they're similar is that they end with them on the good side.

They would replace them.

I said basically, and in concept of going from someone who cares for themself and then to heroism, I think it is that.

And I'm not buying it. You chose the words 'soft reboot' and I believe you are applying the term incorrectly.

Maybe so. It doesn't change what I mean, in that: Nothing about those stories and character arcs are built to. They could get there. But it hasn't been built to.

It's not an assumption. I've looked at the proof which is the galaxy as TFA depicted it. The Republic wiped out by JJ's lazy shorthand empire. Regardless, we agree that the dynamic was unimaginative, and I even agree that TFA was vague enough that 8 could have veered out of that lane if inclined, so it's not much of a disagreement really.

The issue is that, that wasn't a developed concept of them having that level of resources. What you say isn't proof of that, as the galaxy as TFA depicted doesn't depict them that way. They're shown to have starkiller based and some other things. But never shown to have anything close to having taken over the galaxy power level. Like I said, TLJ could've developed that as them having put all of their eggs into the starkiller base basket and now they're reeling from that loss. But it basically just did more dumb and lazy stuff.

 

[henzINNIT]

They would replace them.

I said basically, and in concept of going from someone who cares for themself and then to heroism, I think it is that.

Finn isn't someone who only cares for himself though. He quickly bonds with Rey and is willing to fight for her when push comes to shove. Han was the scoundrel who needed a heart. Finn was never uncaring, he was deeply emotional from the off but was frightened and cowardly. This is why I don't think the arcs are similar, and don't find their stories all that similar either.

Maybe so. It doesn't change what I mean, in that: Nothing about those stories and character arcs are built to. They could get there. But it hasn't been built to.

And I think you're holding the plots to an unreasonable amount of 'build up', wherein any new turn the story takes is seen as a dramatic swerve; which is a standard this series has never adhered to. The climax the OT built to was blowing up the Death Star again. That was built toward only in the sense that it had literally happened already. Even the more thoroughly plotted PT dropped characters like Greivous in at the last minute.

Paradoxically, I also think you're ignoring all the things TFA and TLJ did build toward. There is 2/3 of a story there, whether it was planned or not. It didn't leave a decisive roadmap for the plot of part 3, but we had plenty of characters and conflicts to resolve. I find the notion that they were written into a corner baffling and unimaginative.

The issue is that, that wasn't a developed concept of them having that level of resources. What you say isn't proof of that, as the galaxy as TFA depicted doesn't depict them that way. They're shown to have starkiller based and some other things. But never shown to have anything close to having taken over the galaxy power level. Like I said, TLJ could've developed that as them having put all of their eggs into the starkiller base basket and now they're reeling from that loss. But it basically just did more dumb and lazy stuff.

To be clear, they are shown to have built the largest super weapon the galaxy has ever seen. That suggests a substantial amount of resources.

 

[Sian]

Love or hate Kylo....he was the last Skywalker. The films were called The Skywalker Saga. Therefore he had to play a major part in it.

Everyone critical of Finn's harsh treatment...I genuinely think his story could have been the focus of a spin off film, Rogue 1 style, exploring the adventures of a rogue stormtrooper. Then perhaps the Skywalker Saga could have focused on....an actual Skywalker.

 

[Filmfan93]

I think this is the first time in 20 years where I haven't re-watched a SW film when it was released on home media. Didn't care about it last April, when it was released on Blu-Ray.

That means I haven't seen it since it was still in theatres back in December 2019.

This speaks miles for the quality of the film, considering I am a huge SW fan and always watch them Day 1 - both at midnight screenings and on Blu-Ray release day.

 

[henzINNIT]

I think this is the first time in 20 years where I haven't re-watched a SW film when it was released on home media. Didn't care about it last April, when it was released on Blu-Ray.

That means I haven't seen it since it was still in theatres back in December 2019.

This speaks miles for the quality of the film, considering I am a huge SW fan and always watch them Day 1 - both at midnight screenings and on Blu-Ray release day.

I know what you mean. TROS is the first Star Wars film I've just kind of rejected and do not want to engage with anymore. Even when they were flawed I could accept those and the general story but this one is different for me. Haven't watched it since the theatrical window either.

 

[Gothamsknight]

I actually did rewatch TROS last week for the first time since 2019 and it was terrible. It's sad, but it really is the worst Star Wars film for me. Even below Attack of the Clones.

Still love Force Awakens if I pretend that TROS doesn't exist. And my respect for TLJ has gone up since it's release in 2017. It's just a shame that there wasn't a cohesive vision and that TROS was as bad as it was.

 

[Filmfan93]

I actually did rewatch TROS last week for the first time since 2019 and it was terrible. It's sad, but it really is the worst Star Wars film for me. Even below Attack of the Clones.

Still love Force Awakens if I pretend that TROS doesn't exist. And my respect for TLJ has gone up since it's release in 2017. It's just a shame that there wasn't a cohesive vision and that TROS was as bad as it was.

My respect for TLJ has gone up as well.

It now sticks up as the bold and different one (in a good way) while TROS feels like a generic by the books blockbuster - which shouldn't be the case with a SW film.

 

[Sian]

100% in agreement regarding TROS.
TFA was too much of a steal from ANH....but it was still fun, enjoyable, introduced this fan to Kylo Ren and I liked Finn and Rey. TLJ I saw in the cinema eight times, and liked it more with each showing.
I tried watching TROS again on dvd....and I couldn't. It's not just Mary Sue Rey, the treatment of Driver, Gleeson and especially Tran (diabolical), and how it ripped off ROTJ - it's one of the most poorly made films I've ever seen and the only SW film I find impossible to watch all the way through. As I've said before, it's more like one of those B movie rip offs of SW that were popular in the 80s, but even they were more entertaining.

I have been trying to amuse myself by looking at the plot holes and also the unresolved questions from TLJ:
How come Palpatine had to wait thirty years before coming back?
Why did he keep changing his mind as to what he actually wanted?
How come Anakin's FG didn't try and help Ben Solo when Palpatine was 'getting in his head'?
Why did Luke's X wing mysteriously recover the door he took off it to make the door in his hut?
How come Rey, who grew up on a desert planet, knew how to sail a boat?
How come if Finn was Force sensitive, Kylo didn't sense it on Jakku?
Why did we never see a confrontation between Luke's FG and Kylo (see you around kid).
Why give Rey a staff like weapon ....yet never have her use a sabrestaff?
Why didn't Finn ever get to confront Kylo as to why he'd spared him on Jakku?
Why didn't Hux ever find out Kylo had killed Snoke, not Rey? There were supposed to be cameras in the elevator and throne room.
Why didn't the Resistance ever find out Rey had voluntarily chosen to go to Ben on the Supremacy?
Why at the beginning of TROS did they take a six foot caterpillar with them as mechanic when they had a darn good one in Rose?
Why didn't Palpatine's cloned son look more like a young Ian McDiarmid?

Have to stop there, the list is endless....

 

[BatLobster]

I actually did rewatch TROS last week for the first time since 2019 and it was terrible. It's sad, but it really is the worst Star Wars film for me. Even below Attack of the Clones.

Still love Force Awakens if I pretend that TROS doesn't exist. And my respect for TLJ has gone up since it's release in 2017. It's just a shame that there wasn't a cohesive vision and that TROS was as bad as it was.

I can enjoy it but in a guilty pleasure sort of way. Like, in a "Sure I'll eat this cold pizza the next morning when I have a hangover" sort of way. Which is a real shame considering it was the 9th film that was supposed to conclude the saga.

There a lot of things that contributed to it being what it was, but unfortunately I really just think if we're being brutally honest, TFA was too redundant and too 'reboot'. It was fun, and it did a nice job introducing new characters but I'm now convinced that it did severe damage to the narrative and ultimately failed as an "Episode VII". Succeeded as being a fun stand alone film but failed in feeling like a natural extension of the story that preceded it IMO.

I really wish we got JJ Abrams directing something closer to Lucas' ideas. He has an incredible eye for casting and directing dynamic character interactions and action. Which is perfect for Star Wars. But he is not even 1/10th the myth builder Lucas was. Everyone always said Lucas was a great ideas guy who needed a better director. Shame what could've been. The mystery box thing sunk this trilogy IMO. Some mystery is fine, great even-- but TFA just had way too much.

 

[Sian]

On another forum someone mentioned that when interviewed JJ actually said he had little idea as to where the ST was going post TFA and that it was 'up to someone else'to continue the story.

If he actually said this, then Rian Johnson deserves kudos for where he went with TLJ.
He got so much flak....yet was left with a bunch of characters that had very little development and a load of dangling threads. And for the most part, he did a good job tying them up.

We were asked to wonder why Luke would exile himself; he came up with an interesting explanation; his tragic mistake regarding his nephew. He also made Luke a more world weary, cynical person - which often happens as you age; I know it has to me.
He did a great job regarding Rey's parentage; it was time for her to leave the past behind and look to the future - thus following on from the little speech Maz gave her in TFA.
He 'matured' Finn.....he had his character gradually grow from 'a man wanting to run' into a resourceful, committed rebel - TROS should have shown him leading a stormtrooper uprising. I also think the scene where Rose tasers him was shown out of context; it was a homage to the old saying 'never meet your heroes'. Rose too had a lesson to learn - she started out somewhat fanatical and by the end had learned saving lives was more important than acting like a kamikaze pilot. A variation on Poe's lesson.
Poe frankly, was a cardboard cut out in TFA; his character was meant to be killed off and after that was changed.....what could be done with yet another 'flyboy' type? Rian developed him beautifully into a far more interesting, if not always sympathetic, character.
And finally....RJ removed the silly Darth Vader helmet so Adam Driver could show his extraordinary acting skills, which he did with great effect.
More than anything RJ offered the possibility of something new....instead of the Jedi and the Sith, two orders that stood in constant conflict, the future would hinge on the chance of a 'Grey' order where dark and light came together and finally put an end to the endless conflict. This was symbolised not only by the mosaic pool in Luke's cave, which showed a creature that was BOTH, but also, believe it or not, by the costumes worn by Rey and Kylo. Rey, a 'lightsider', wore grey, which hinted that she wasn't entirely 'perfect', but had the capacity for darkness. Kylo's black costume was threaded with gold, showing that there was light within his darkness. One of the most memorable scenes in TLJ for me was when the Skywalker lightsabre, elevated to some kind of Excalibur by Abrams, split hinting that neither Rey OR Kylo was 'worthy' of it.

A lot of people argue that Kylo 'regressed' to complete darkness at the end of TLJ....but I disagree. The novel actually showed that he believed Leia was dead after she was sucked out into space, so his rage and need to destroy the last of the Resistance didn't mean he intended to commit matricide as well as patricide. His hatred of Rey stemmed from hurt...from his point of view he had offered her the galaxy and she not only rejected him but left him on a crippled ship that as far as she knew was going down. Most of all, however, his last scene showed him a lost and lonely soul, cut off from the woman he cared about, his rage burned out, watched by the villainous Hux like a predator smelling blood. Hux was just waiting for an opportunity to take him down.
Then Abrams had the cheek to accuse Johnson of 'writing them into a corner'.....when he practically offered him the entire plotline to TROS.

 

[BatLobster]

A lot of people argue that Kylo 'regressed' to complete darkness at the end of TLJ....but I disagree. The novel actually showed that he believed Leia was dead after she was sucked out into space, so his rage and need to destroy the last of the Resistance didn't mean he intended to commit matricide as well as patricide.

This bit of info is helpful, though as much I as I do admire TLJ I have to say the movie didn't do a great job communicating that particular point. And it's kind of important as it it's a major clue to where he's at in his emotional journey. We see that he can sense his mother through the Force earlier in the movie, so it's a bit unexplained if/why he's not sensing her during the climax. I was convinced that he didn't care if she was there or not because he was so blinded by rage in that moment. It feels like the movie is trying to have it both ways a bit.

 

[henzINNIT]

From what we've learned, I think Kylo was meant to be the main villain of this trilogy. An inverse of Anakin's story, he'll feel the pull to the light but double down on evil, becoming more hollow and monstrous. That appeared to be JJ's intent with TFA, having him kill Han Solo to cement his villainy.

A lot has been said about Lucasfilm's lack of planning and rightly so, but to be fair we do know that they had 9 drafted as far back as 2016. I think Rian Johnson made TLJ believing Kylo was the series villain. He pulled a bait and switch with Kylo's redemption, playing out that story and toying with that chance but ultimately having him stick with evil. Johnson invested in Kylo's redemption in order to subvert it. Seems to me that some of this could have been 'planned', or scribbled on a napkin at least. I think the intent to use the OG characters prominently in separate films was planned, with Han (7), Luke (8) and Leia (9). Their big dramatic scenes involve Kylo, so I think some of those beats were planned around them. Leia stopping Kylo in the end was probably inspired by Lucas' story ideas.

After the TLJ madness, plans changed. I think LF banked on us hating Kylo for killing legacy characters, not hating them for killing legacy characters. I would bet Johnson sold LF on the notion of Rey Nobody, and the larger message of heroes from humble beginnings and found family. Once TLJ was out and divisive as hell, LF backed away from that idea. They had fans mad at them for culling fan-favourites, concerned about bloodlines, and the only descendant they had established was the central antagonist.

TROS was pure damage control, but sadly it was put together in such a rush that it ended up doing more damage than repair. I find so many of the ideas misjudged. Palpatine's return is not earned and that hurts previous films. I hate Rey Palpatine and think it's a cheap retcon to tie her to a returning villain. Bendemption has some nice moments but it doesn't understand the audience it's catering to, having him redeemed and dead pleases neither the Kylo fans nor those concerned about the family history. Finn and Poe get politely benched. Rose gets humiliated and benched. They did what they could with Leia after losing Carrie Fisher but it was still a bitter pill to swallow. Sigh. I wish the film was delayed and better screenwriters were hired.

 

[Brother Jack]

TROS was made from a place of cowardice, plain and simple.

 

[Sian]

This bit of info is helpful, though as much I as I do admire TLJ I have to say the movie didn't do a great job communicating that particular point. And it's kind of important as it it's a major clue to where he's at in his emotional journey. We see that he can sense his mother through the Force earlier in the movie, so it's a bit unexplained if/why he's not sensing her during the climax. I was convinced that he didn't care if she was there or not because he was so blinded by rage in that moment. It feels like the movie is trying to have it both ways a bit.

Absolutely. I love the tie in novels - apart from TROS, which I avoided - but fact is, many people don't bother to read them, therefore that little bit of info was lost on many moviegoers. As Elijah Wood so rightly pointed out, DLF relied far too much on supplementary materials, so to those who didn't know, Kylo ordering no mercy on what was left of the Resistance meant he intended to kill his mother as well - you could excuse him for the former, they were his enemies and to him, they were terrorists, but his mother was a different kettle of fish altogether. Him not knowing she was among them goes a long way towards looking at the character in a different light.

Playing devil's advocate, the more I think about it, the more one thing stands out in TLJ for me. And that is the conflict between Hux and Kylo, but also the power struggle between them. Because Hux had far more control over the FO that Kylo did. Kylo might have had Force powers, but Hux commanded the armies - he said so himself post Snoke's death and Rey's flight from the Supremacy. Kylo had to Force choke him into accepting him as leader, and bullying and violence wasn't something that would have worked as a long time solution with a man like Hux. Especially as Kylo showed signs of mental illness/instability., demonstrated by his behaviour when Luke showed up on Crait. Sooner or later he'd slip up, and then Hux would have him. Look at the way he was watching him at the end of the film - like a predator waiting for the slightest sign of weakness.
Remember, even Darth Vader had to obey Tarkin in ANH.....he only assumed command when Tarkin was killed on the Death Star, and Vader, evil or no, was a lot more stable than Kylo. It's telling that when Hux asked him what had happened to Snoke, he lied and pretended it was Rey. He knew how precarious his position was.
And as for Rey...someone pointed out recently on tumblr....after the lightsabre split Rey abandoned Kylo without a backward glance on a crippled ship which as far as she knew it, was going down. She left him to die. He'd killed Snoke for her, fought with her and actually pleaded with her to join him. She had no reason to fear him. She owed him her life, no matter what he was. She could have at least taken him with her - if she could lift a dozen or more boulders with the Force she could easily have force lifted one unconscious man!
Rey actually came across as somewhat unlikeable in that scene. She acted like a sulky brat who didn't get what she wanted - for Kylo to call off the FO and 'save the Resistance'. Which, I wonder, he'd actually been able to do considering that Hux controlled the armies. Kylo's expression when Snoke was torturing Rey showed he clearly cared about her, but I am positive she felt nothing for him. He was a means to an end, nothing more.
Luke got his dying father off the Death Star in ROTJ. Rey abandoned Kylo to die.
She is nothing like Luke.