Ghost Rider 2 - reboot with Dan Ketch?

[DoomRulz]

I can understand why you like Dan Ketch so much. You were raised in his era, weren't you ? The "age" may not always be true, but in Dan's case, it was! He was really immature. But as an older man, and an older fan, I go for the more "flawed" GR. I like him better as a guy showing more "evil" in him- namely the Blaze/Zarathos version. That was my biggest problem with Kale- he was too good. The 'Ghost Rider' character has always struck me as an anti-hero, and I prefer him that way.

"Zarathos was like Carnage from Spider-Man IMO, all about killing people. Pretty shallow if you ask me, at least Noble Kale wanted to help people."

Funny you should say that t:, but I actually thought being too much of an all-round good guy made Kale the 'shallow' one. For me, he was too "cliche". Actually, they're BOTH pretty shallow: Zarathos- too evil; Kale- too good. I want a more balanced character- like the one I said in my previous post . I know both series have flaws- that's why I want them to fix those things for the movies. I may be a long-time fan, but I'm no purist. I know when it's time for changes.

I was raised with Ketch, but I've read all of Ghost Rider Vol. 1, plus I'm reading the current series as well.

Noble Kale was hardly too good, if he wanted to hurt someone, he did. Remember Ghost Rider #6? He messed up Scarecrow BAD. Not to mention #25, when he tore Blackout apart.

 

[Cain Estrell]

I was raised with Ketch, but I've read all of Ghost Rider Vol. 1, plus I'm reading the current series as well.

Noble Kale was hardly too good, if he wanted to hurt someone, he did. Remember Ghost Rider #6? He messed up Scarecrow BAD. Not to mention #25, when he tore Blackout apart.

HAHA! I knew it t:! Pleasure to meet ya, kid. I'm 31 . Even though you read the 1st series, somehow I doubt you've really held them in high regard. I mean, at your time- these old comics are hardly your type- in style and delivery. If you were born in my time, you may have appreciated them as much as I do. Again it's hard to explain, but I think you'd have to have been born during that era to truly "feel" it's appeal.

No no. You're missin' the point. I mean Kale may have had his share of dark moments- but he always showed signs that he only meant to do so out of necessity. In Scarecrow & Blackout's case, both guys REALLY pissed him off ('specially Blackout)- it's no wonder he brutalized them so much. Still, in most cases he made it obvious that he was one hellova good guy- by the way he talked, and by the way acted. Like I said before, I want them to make it "less obvious"- as in questionable. Give GR more attitude- more villainous tendencies- like hurting/killing anyone who stands in his way without much, or ANY, regard- like Zarathos did (only he has to be good deep inside).

 

[CaptainClown]

There is so much more to Ghost Rider then I imagined now with all of you talking about these different Ghost Riders. Here is my idea since I am not a Ghost Rider fan. Why not do a Reboot and have it be able the different Ghost Riders (if thats what it is about) titles would go like Ghost Rider:Blaze or Ghost Rider :Ketch. Course this will have to be worked on

 

[DoomRulz]

HAHA! I knew it t:! Pleasure to meet ya, kid. I'm 31 . Even though you read the 1st series, somehow I doubt you've really held them in high regard. I mean, at your time- these old comics are hardly your type- in style and delivery. If you were born in my time, you may have appreciated them as much as I do. Again it's hard to explain, but I think you'd have to have been born during that era to truly "feel" it's appeal.

No no. You're missin' the point. I mean Kale may have had his share of dark moments- but he always showed signs that he only meant to do so out of necessity. In Scarecrow & Blackout's case, both guys REALLY pissed him off ('specially Blackout)- it's no wonder he brutalized them so much. Still, in most cases he made it obvious that he was one hellova good guy- by the way he talked, and by the way acted. Like I said before, I want them to make it "less obvious"- as in questionable. Give GR more attitude- more villainous tendencies- like hurting/killing anyone who stands in his way without much, or ANY, regard- like Zarathos did (only he has to be good deep inside).

Well of course Kale only became violent out of necessity, that shows that he's a balanced being. He wasn't a loose cannon like Zarathos. Zarathos just wanted to be violent, period. He wasn't interested in doing good. The only reason he was after vengeance was because that's all he was allowed to do, unless Blaze willingly gave up control.

 

[DoomRulz]

There is so much more to Ghost Rider then I imagined now with all of you talking about these different Ghost Riders. Here is my idea since I am not a Ghost Rider fan. Why not do a Reboot and have it be able the different Ghost Riders (if thats what it is about) titles would go like Ghost Rider:Blaze or Ghost Rider :Ketch. Course this will have to be worked on

That's not a bad idea, but I think you'd have to do one or the other...I mean, you can't introduce Blaze, then immediately jump into Dan Ketch. They're two completely different people, and their background would have to explored.

 

[CaptainClown]

The thing would be first you would have to explain the characters and really flesh out their personality. With this recent Movie flop I think people wouldn't mind a reboot. The movie would have to become actually well written and show each riders struggle with being the rider. Make the riders have control but different flaws. Such as that rider who takes revenge and is excessively violent. The fastest way to do a Ketch character background is use flashbacks and show pivotal scenes

 

[Cain Estrell]

Well of course Kale only became violent out of necessity, that shows that he's a balanced being. He wasn't a loose cannon like Zarathos. Zarathos just wanted to be violent, period. He wasn't interested in doing good. The only reason he was after vengeance was because that's all he was allowed to do, unless Blaze willingly gave up control.

In the end, though, you and I have very different tastes . I prefer the more classic, evil GR- while you like the good guy better. I want changes, while you maintain a purist view. For that reason, we'll just have to agree to disagree. I still say Johnny Blaze is the one and only Ghost Rider, and he will always be! I love how they merge both series into one for the movies. That allows them to be more creative- to fix elements in the comics that only serve to add confusion to the overall story. I say Blaze has the better background, while Ketch has the better story. So I say- mix n' match t:! Just like what the new JB series is doing....

Here's my take on what an awesome Ghost Rider should be for the movies: Make him REALLY intimidating. Make him seem evil as much as possible- only showing very brief/slight signs of goodness. Get rid of his "repetitive talk", instead opting for a more straight to the point, "IN YER FACE!" attitude. Retain Noble Kale's look, while keeping Blaze as the host. Focus on his fight scenes, & give him really cool moves (like that somersault kick from the PS2 video game). Finally, only have 1 major villain for him to fight- preferably someone who needs little or no CGI. Someone like Blackout is a good choice, for me. All they need is to find the right actor for the job, and give him the proper makeup (it's cheaper than CGI- helps save some money for the fights).

 

[DoomRulz]

There's only one problem with merging Riders like they did...

VILLAINS.

Say what you will about Blaze's Ghost Rider, his villains aren't anywhere near as badass as Ketch's were. Trapster, Snake Dance, even the Orb ain't got NOTHIN on Blackout, Deathwatch, Hag, Troll, or VENGEANCE. mmm, Vengeancet:

I'm sorry, but if they insist on merging Riders in the movie, then these Blaze movies will be more and more Ketch b/c they'll keep stealing from his series.

 

[Cain Estrell]

There's only one problem with merging Riders like they did...

VILLAINS.

Say what you will about Blaze's Ghost Rider, his villains aren't anywhere near as badass as Ketch's were. Trapster, Snake Dance, even the Orb ain't got NOTHIN on Blackout, Deathwatch, Hag, Troll, or VENGEANCE. mmm, Vengeancet:

I'm sorry, but if they insist on merging Riders in the movie, then these Blaze movies will be more and more Ketch b/c they'll keep stealing from his series.

Like I said, I'M NO PURIST! So I don't mind if they'd "steal" from each other's comic- Dan's in particular- but BOTTOMLINE is- it's a great lead to improvement. I'll always say JB's the one and only Ghost Rider! His story background was well-executed, has a more unique feel, & has that sense of anti-heroism fully-intact. I love the element of "inner struggle" between Blaze & Zarathos. It's a great theme about a man as he fights for his right to live- to not give in to his inner evil, and to retain his "self". It's a whole lot better than Dan's (who was just trying to be a copycat of Peter Parker, anyway- a miserable one at that). JB may not have had great villains, but as a character, IMO, he has much more appeal. Besides, Marvel's already making it clear that they've always preferred Blaze better (new series, anyone?). They already "stole" from Dan's series- looks & all. We'll see what Daniel Way has in store for GR in the upcoming issues- but whatever it is- it's OVER! JB's back, and he's here to stay t:! Period. So purists, say all you want how poor little Dan was a better character, but it's JB that's apparently got the charisma ! Marvel likes him better, and we older guys love him better! No offense kiddo, but that's just how it goes .

P.S. You may wanna retract that statement soon about JB's badboys being nothing compared to DK's. Ever read "Road to Damnation"- starring JB? There's a new villain there called "Kazann". I say he's one hellova COOL badguy! Y'see Doom, it depends on the writer- on the ERA. The old JB comic was still a newbie in the comic industry: They didn't put much effort to his story then, nor his villains- but they still developed his background really well! In DK's case: For all the creativeness they've put in his rogues- not so for his own character development (just a bad PP wannabe). This, in my theory, is the reason why Marvel killed DK off- made it look like he never even existed. Yet they knew his comic (and his GR's outfit) had great appeal. So they're now incorporating these elements into the new series starring the guy they've always done better: JOHNNY BLAZE ! Again, it's just my theory. The only way to find out is- READ ON t:! (I bet sooner or later JB's new comic will be swarmin' with really nasty rogues- new and old. Some possibly even better than Dan's. Who knows? Maybe we'll even get to see DK's Blackout or Deathwatch again. Or even an UPGRADED Orb- made more appealing than before.)

 

[Reaper]

^

 

[crazy sock]

theyre not gunnah use kazann. he wasnt meant to be a main villain cause RTD wasnt meant to be a main series. and i doubt theyll have old enemies, whether theyre of JB's or of Noble Kale's. if they were gunnah do that they would have had Mephistop instead of some random Lucifer. if they were gunnah do a total retcon of the GR series, they should have just made a ultimate GR series. that way they wouldnt have so many pissed off fans wondering "wtf is going on". they could have had no strings attatched with an ultimate series. and i dont think its that MARVEL likes Blaze better. i think its just that theyre trying to cash in on the movie hype, by having the current series' GR be similar to how the movie GR is. by having jb as the host but with Noble Kale's look and powers.

 

[Cain Estrell]

theyre not gunnah use kazann. he wasnt meant to be a main villain cause RTD wasnt meant to be a main series. and i doubt theyll have old enemies, whether theyre of JB's or of Noble Kale's. if they were gunnah do that they would have had Mephistop instead of some random Lucifer. if they were gunnah do a total retcon of the GR series, they should have just made a ultimate GR series. that way they wouldnt have so many pissed off fans wondering "wtf is going on". they could have had no strings attatched with an ultimate series. and i dont think its that MARVEL likes Blaze better. i think its just that theyre trying to cash in on the movie hype, by having the current series' GR be similar to how the movie GR is. by having jb as the host but with Noble Kale's look and powers.

Really? Like I said, WE'LL HAVE TO WAIT AND SEE. Not necessarily their favorite may be, but Marvel already reintroduced Blaze as Ghost Rider in "The Hammer Lane", set years even before the films' release. Yeah yeah, I know many of you hated it, but I still appreciated it anyway. (Besides, RTD managed to put more light into what made THL so odd). RTD, I believe, is simply a prelude to the current ongoing series. There's still a link between them- Blaze ended up taking a holy bullet in his skull by the end of RTD. The current series began with him trying to escape from hell- most likely where he ended up again after taking that shot. Kazzan will be back. At least, that's what I'm hoping for (I really like his character ).

*Sigh*! I GIVE UP! It's just IMPOSSIBLE to create a movie based on the plotlines of these comics, as none of them are consistent, enough. I say opt for a completely original story. Have the basic DK look, more badass, Zarathos-personality, and a host who doesn't tend annoy the living hell out of you. Go for most of DK's villains, but NO teenage PP-esque squealers for a hero. Just go for an older, rugged man in his late twenties- like a former criminal-biker who gets kicked out by his gang after finding him too "soft", then sells off his soul to GR for the sake of repentance or somethin'.

 

[DoomRulz]

I agree with crazy_sock, this retconning is going too far.

Cain, you have to understand something: Blaze may be more popular right now, but in merging Riders like Marvel is, they are completely ignoring the previous series. Hell, they don't even acknowledge Ghost Rider Vol. 1, Blaze's first series! How can you defend something that's not even taking its history into account.

 

[crazy sock]

RTD isnt a actual prelude. they had ennis do the series cause they wanted to get ready for the movie. they had him do it the way he did cause they wanted to start erasing the events of the 90s series by trying to start anew. n the current series decided to just continue with what had happened in RTD by taking ennis' idea. so kazann aint comen back. oh and hammerlane was the same deal i believe as RTD. they just wanted to get ready for the eventual release of the movie. you have to remember, even though the movie hadnt begun being made. it was cause it was stuck in development hell. so even back then they were getting ready to cash in and add to the GR movie hype by starting a new series that had no actual ties to the 90s series, the hammer lane series and the current series dont even have any concrete connections to the 70s JB series. its like theyre doing a Ultimate GR series, just not in the actual Ultimate Marvel universe. ITS RIDICULOUS. bahs to MARVEL for being a bunch of lazy and money grubbing slobs.

 

[crazy sock]

look, i agree that JB as a host and as a character on his own is better than dan ketch. but yer views on dan ketch i certainly dont agree with. if you suddenly were to become the host to some spirit of vengeance and had no control over it and yer sister wound up dying, how would you handle it? so i think DK has the right to complain about his problems. finding out his family is cursed to be the host to some spirit of vengeance, finding out his mom isnt rele his mom, having to deal with supernatural baddies and other freaks, his friends and family having their lives threatened on a daily basis. SO CMON, give the guy some slack. if everyone loved blaze so much, id think his own series back in the 90s wouldnt have bombed the way it did.if yer wondering what im talking about, im talking about the johnny blaze series they had where he was looking for his two kids.

 

[DoomRulz]

if everyone loved blaze so much, id think his own series back in the 90s wouldnt have bombed the way it did.if yer wondering what im talking about, im talking about the johnny blaze series they had where he was looking for his two kids.

You're referring to Ghost Rider Vol. 3, the one that was released under the Marvel Knights banner.

 

[crazy sock]

no this was waaaaaaaaaaaaaay before there was even a Marvel Knights. im talking about this series http://ghostrider.omegacen.com/blaze.html

 

[DoomRulz]

no this was waaaaaaaaaaaaaay before there was even a Marvel Knights. im talking about this series http://ghostrider.omegacen.com/blaze.html

Oh, THAT series.

P.S. That's a sik website

 

[Cain Estrell]

Oh, THAT series.

P.S. That's a sik website

AHH, yes Mr. Blaze's very own mini-series (what was that site, anyway?). Alright, Doom- you convinced me. I'm willing to give Danny another chance to redeem himself- IF they bring him back, that is. I'd like to see him grow up more- grow out of that whiny shell of his- grow into his rugged 30's or somethin. BUT LIKE YOU GUYS SAY, those money-grubbers at Marvel ain't got no respect for GR at all- They can toy around with their own character as much as they want- even if it means with no heart, effort nor soul. It's true that it's no. 2's era where all the major bad guys appeared, but that doesn't exactly mean they've been completely forgotten. I don't particularly remember the name nor title of this comic, but I do recall when I borrowed a copy from my nephew that showed some massive "jailbreak" scene, and I thought one of the escaping cons resembled Blackout (from DK era). Who knows? Maybe it really was him- somehow managing to escape from getting burned to crisps at World Trade Center when Kale chained him up atop it. Maybe one day he'll return seeking for revenge- only he doesn't give a damn if it's the same GR or not- just so long as he could get his hands on a guy he really despises. As for the the fact that they used a real Lucifer instead of Mephisto- REMEMBER that old Mephs was never EXACTLY referred to as the big S himself (many thought he was, but it seems that isn't the case). He could simply be a high-ranking arch demon for all we know- just a servant of the real lord of hell.

I don't really understand why you keep getting bothered by the fact that they're "stealing" from Dan's comic. I mean, at least be GRATEFUL that they're even remembering the baddies that made his era so popular. If Marvel's got no plan on bringing him back (which is the most likely thing, to me) then at least allow them to bring back the badguys we all know and love- it's better than them NEVER appearing again, at all .

 

[crazy sock]

the site is vengeance unbound. VU and Ghost Rider internapse are the two best GR sites online. not that there are many GR sites around, least not anymore.

 

[Cain Estrell]

look, i agree that JB as a host and as a character on his own is better than dan ketch. but yer views on dan ketch i certainly dont agree with. if you suddenly were to become the host to some spirit of vengeance and had no control over it and yer sister wound up dying, how would you handle it? so i think DK has the right to complain about his problems. finding out his family is cursed to be the host to some spirit of vengeance, finding out his mom isnt rele his mom, having to deal with supernatural baddies and other freaks, his friends and family having their lives threatened on a daily basis. SO CMON, give the guy some slack.

Which is why I blame Marvel for creating him in the first place. If they were to re-introduce GR to comic industry, why didn't they just continue with Blaze?! He was already well-experienced by that time, and didn't have to look all weak or new. By crafting a new character they once again brought back the element of "NEWBIE" in it. You guys may not realize it as you were raised in his time- but in my case, I found myself having to relearn GR's character all over again- from scratch. What happened to the guy I've gotten used to since I was a kid? I had to put up with seeing him as a "rookie" yet again- and it's so frustrating ! Adding Dan and Kale's background- then relating it with Blaze's -didn't exactly help bring more light to the series, either. Rather, they just served to convolute things even further.

 

[DoomRulz]

Which is why I blame Marvel for creating him in the first place. If they were to re-introduce GR to comic industry, why didn't they just continue with Blaze?! He was already well-experienced by that time, and didn't have to look all weak or new. By crafting a new character they once again brought back the element of "NEWBIE" in it. You guys may not realize it as you were raised in his time- but in my case, I found myself having to relearn GR's character all over again- from scratch. What happened to the guy I've gotten used to since I was a kid? I had to put up with seeing him as a "rookie" yet again- and it's so frustrating ! Adding Dan and Kale's background- then relating it with Blaze's -didn't exactly help bring more light to the series, either. Rather, they just served to convolute things even further.

What's so convoluted about Ketch? He has an ancestor in Noble Kale, who sold his soul to the devil. His soul was tied to a Spirit of Vengeance, and was later on passed down to Naomi Kale. When she turned into Ghost Rider for the last time, the very demon that possessed her was 'fused' if you like, into the motorcycle which Dan came upon in Ghost Rider #1.

Blaze and Dan pretty much share the same origin. They have the same mother, and were separated at birth. If anything, that's why the DK series is more interesting (IMO) than Blaze's b/c it delved into the history behind Ghost Rider, Zarathos, the Blood, etc... and explained why things happened the way they did.

 

[DoomRulz]

I don't really understand why you keep getting bothered by the fact that they're "stealing" from Dan's comic. I mean, at least be GRATEFUL that they're even remembering the baddies that made his era so popular. If Marvel's got no plan on bringing him back (which is the most likely thing, to me) then at least allow them to bring back the badguys we all know and love- it's better than them NEVER appearing again, at all .

It's bugging me b/c in doing so, not only do they retcon the villains, but again, they ignore the previous series.

 

[crazy sock]

whatever. yer not gunnah convince me that they never should have had the 90s series the way it was. and im not gunnah convince you otherwise. not gunnah continue defending the 90s incarnation of GR. but i will say this. when most ppl think of GR, they think of the 90s rider not the 70s rider. when most ppl think of the 70s GR series, they think of JB himself, not zarathos.

 

[DoomRulz]

whatever. yer not gunnah convince me that they never should have had the 90s series the way it was. and im not gunnah convince you otherwise. not gunnah continue defending the 90s incarnation of GR. but i will say this. when most ppl think of GR, they think of the 90s rider not the 70s rider. when most ppl think of the 70s GR series, they think of JB himself, not zarathos.

Did you enjoy Vol. 2 at all?