Ghost Rider (Vol 2) Discussion / Dan Ketch

[Dan Ketch]

Anyone? It makes me mad that he's always over looked, The Blaze GR was cool but Dan Ketch was the reason I loved the character. John Blaze hasnt been GR in like 20 years and still Dan Ketch gets no respect. Anyone have any thoughts...?

 

[FlameHead]

Just because the movie is focusing on Blaze doesn't mean the world thinks Dan doesn't exist. In fact, MSJ himself said that he preferred the DK storylines over the Blaze ones and I think that's the way most people feel.

When they make a comic run again, as much as I'd love to see him, we'll likely not see Dan.

 

[Dan Ketch]

When they make a comic run again, as much as I'd love to see him, we'll likely not see Dan.

And that's why the new series will be gay, unless it's in the Ultimate universe...

 

[FlameHead]

A gay Ghost Rider would be interesting. All the homosexual fans would probably find it 'hot'. Ha.

 

[The Lizard]

I have a Dan Ketch GR question.

I read the 1990's Ghost Rider series and collected all his appearances until around the time after the Midnight Sons/Spirts of Vengeance storylines came out, then I lost interest in the comic. I chalk up my loss of interest to pretty much the same thing that happend to the Venom character in the early-to-mid 90's. The "dark and gritty" characters were cool at first, but then Marvel over-used them to sell various titles then pretty much wimpified them in an attempt to make them more "heroic". Venom becoming a "Lethal Protector" and Ghost Rider claiming that he never killed mortal beings (despite all his violent actions against the ninjas at the beginning of the 90's GR series) are examples of this.

Anyway, I remember that Ketch's Ghost Rider was revealed to NOT be the demon Zarathos like Blaze's GR was. So-- was it ever revealed exactly where Ketch's GR came from or who he really was?

 

[FlameHead]

Oh yes... and it's a pretty long story. To get a great understanding of it, check out the Vengeance Unbound website. It has a very detailed write up of Ghost Rider's history.

A few highlights of what you're going to read; Dan is Blaze's brother, Noble Kale is the demon that possesses Blade and they are both part of a long legacy of the occult.

Check it out.

 

[The Lizard]

Oh yes... and it's a pretty long story.

Man, you weren't kidding -- that was pretty long and drawn out. Thanks for the link.

What that complicated mesh of origin stories tells me is that the GR movie is going to be able to make up any sort of origin it wants for GR and get away with it.

 

[FlameHead]

Well, they're going with the Blaze origin now... with a few subtle changes.

 

[JewishHobbit]

I never read anything with Blaze in it as Ghost Rider but I loved Ketch. I've read about 20 issues of the 90's series (around 15 or so through 30 something) and I loved him.

 

[FlameHead]

Yeah, he was pretty sweet in those days. Tex did a great job with the art and the stories were quite faboo. It wasn't until after issue 50 that the storylines starting dropping in quality actually... though I'm not sure about the last few issues. There are about 20 more of the 95 (incl 2 annuals) issues that I need. Therefor, I haven't read anything past issue 58. I want to read them in order and what I have from 58-93 is sporatic. I have a complete run to there though.

Anyway, that was pretty useless information for you, I know. Ghost Rider/Dan Ketch kicks ass!

 

[PaleRider]

I like both versions but I have to say I like Blaze more. I have a question for you, I read that Keatch is dead? That in the last issue (91?) he sacrificed himself for the demon or something. Is that true or what?

 

[FlameHead]

93 was the last issue, though there is an unpublished 94 on the internet, giving conclusion to the entire story. Damn them for not publishing it. Damn them to hell... which coincedently is shown, with it's ruler being Ghost Rider. Awesome.

Dan did die, yes...

Noble went through with his promise to marry Pao Fu and Black Rose, and afterwards freed them from Blackheart's control. It was at this time that Black Rose was revealed to actually be Roxanne Simpson. Dan and Naomi found Noble, now possessing the truth about his origins. At the cost of his life, Dan Ketch returned Noble's missing memories that revealed to him his true nature...that of the angel of death, so christened by Uriel himself. Noble then killed Blackheart and became ruler of Hell. [Ghost Rider vol. 2 # 93]

Taken from the Vengeance Unbound website

It does go on to say this though...

Although Noble Kale only made one appearance as the high lord of Hell, that didn't mean his presence would fade away. In New York City, a mysterious fire blazes from a building, one the local firefighters are unable to put out. From this fire, the Ghost Rider emerges, his hellfire out of control. Spider-Man arrives and attempts to calm the Rider down, but ends up in a lengthy fight with the spirit. During the battle, he mentions being lied to by Mephisto and Blackheart. Eventually, Spider-Man discovers a bomb planted by terrorists, one that's set to explode. The Ghost Rider wants to contain the explosion himself, but realizes that he has yet to regain his full power. Suddenly, Dan Ketch, mysteriously alive once again, appears from the crowd and confronts the demon. He asks the Rider if he remembers anything about their years spent together, and about Noble Kale's status as ruler of Hell. The demon replies that he was never Noble Kale, and that he doesn't know what is true and what were lies from Mephisto. Realizing that the innocent people on the street need to be saved from the bomb, Dan agrees to merge with the Ghost Rider once again, bringing them back to their full strength. The Ghost Rider contains the explosion, and then rides off into the night. [Peter Parker: Spider-Man # 93]

I can't wait to find that issue...

 

[NewDirection]

I read the original series, and think all the reimagining since---including reimagining Johnny Blaze---Is just a load of smoking brimstone briquettes. I think this character has been coasting on the cool of the original dude and has done virtually nada to deserve to stay afloat since. OK, having said that, I will admit that the early Danny Ketch stuff is now significant as a time capsule from the grunge years.

Let me explain why. Johnny Blaze was a great character. He was a carnival stuntman...That's sufficient material for a comic hero without GR at all. And in fact GR was a curse to him. One he got because of love that had gone wrong. Blaze is a classic character. Ketch is just another dishwasher type where the hero aspect that enters his life is the only thing that makes it interesting. Yeah it's good to have such characters (Spider-Man comes to mind) but they shouldn't all be that way.

 

[KnightsPast]

I've gotta say...I like Dan Ketch more, and here's why: the audience can relate to him more. He is just a regular kid, and in the beggining issues (like, first 7) he is a little boring, I agree. But he starts to grow and that is usually interesting for readers. He kept saying he wasn't a detective, but it was Dan who found out about Deathwatch and Snowblind. He bought a helmet (smart move) and started listening to police broadcasts. He used his messenger service to get to the secretary Renee and he wasn't a tough guy at all. In fact, it was kinda cool to see Blaze as a brotherly or paternal figure to Dan, and tought him how to hold his own in a fight or on his bike.

That said, I can completely understand those who like Blaze better: I almost always like the originals rather than remakes. I think the reason so many people like Dan Ketch, like myself, is that most of us were around for Danny but not for Blaze back in the day. So to us, he is original. But the reason Danny got over looked is because he is not the first, and because Blaze is a more fantasical character on his own. Dan is a regular dude.

 

[NewDirection]

This is an interesting question. The thing about Blaze (and I didn't read all the original series, just towards the last thirty ishs or so)... Is that he had it both ways. Yes it was a kid's dream to be a carnival stuntman; not just any stuntman but an Evel Knevel rider. However he was portrayed as a scared, lonely kid in this strange "carnie" existence. I'd say the Steve Martin "The Jerk" character of the period helped define carnival stuntman as a cool looking but somewhat thankless existence. Actually the main dude on the HBO TV series "Canivale" has a little of the same tragic folksy aspect. Plus, when you factor in the loss of his girl and subsequent pact with the devil, and the darkly tragic tone overall (found in many Marvel comics of the era from Rom to Nightstalkers), the character seems not overblown but a dustmote in a tempest.

 

[FlameHead]

Actually, it wasn't his ladyfriend that he lost in the comics... it was his ol' daddy-o, in every sense of the word, except biologicaly. They're making it Roxanne in the movie though... from what I can tell.

I have more to add to this thread later. I'm at work right now.

 

[NewDirection]

Actually, it wasn't his ladyfriend that he lost in the comics... it was his ol' daddy-o, in every sense of the word, except biologicaly.

I didn't say she died (although she did on one or two occasions). She left the series (long before I jumped in, back in Vol 1 #9 according to this: http://www.worldfamouscomics.com/tony/back20011214.shtml. He "lost" her in that forever-pining-for-his-ex early-twenties sense. Not as easy as her being dead on the old male ego.

 

[FlameHead]

Thanks for that link; was a great find and wonderful read...

 

[Shawkur]

I always found the Ketch character pretty bland, even just the name itself.

 

[FlameHead]

...Well, what's in a name?

Either way, to each their own. The battle between who is better is one that will go of forever.

 

[Fettstyl]

Anyone? It makes me mad that he's always over looked, The Blaze GR was cool but Dan Ketch was the reason I loved the character. John Blaze hasnt been GR in like 20 years and still Dan Ketch gets no respect. Anyone have any thoughts...?

Actually I have a few thoughts. I don't think GRKetch deserves any respect. GRBlaze was infinately better for a thousand reasons. I'm hoping that with the GRB movie and the GRB mini coming out that that is an indication that GRK will be forgotten and ignored. The art in the first half of GRK was great, but that was about the only thing redeeming about GRK. Now reasons I say what I've said:

1-GRK is not a demon....stupid,nuff said.

2-GRK can be defeated by Blazes hellfire shotgun, the same hellfire that GRK is made of.......dumb dumb idea, one of many dumb ideas by the GRK writers. The writers were fools for making a completely different character that just happens to look exactly like GRB.....stupid!!

3-GRK wouldn't kill.

4-GRK's penance stare can't be projected like GRB, thus someone at a distance or someone like snowblind can escape penance.

5-GRB makes sense!! Why does the GRB look like he does? He's a demon. Most importantly, Why does GRB ride a bike? Because GRB can create stuff from his hellfire(unlike GRK) and chooses a bike because his host is a stunt rider who has some control over the demon and chooses a bike which GR retains Blazes riding abilities. Makes perfect sense. right. Why does GRK ride a bike??? Why was it a bike that was found in the junkyard???? No good reason at all, only a blatant attempt to make a cool looking comic. Which of course did look cool, I have every issue, even the crappy last ones, but that does not change the fact that GRK is very shallow compared to GRB.

6-GRB is a badass with a badass attitude, he enjoys his mission, even laughs as he is frying souls. In fact GRB fried souls left and right. GRK would go issue after issue without frying a single soul. lame.

7-GRB was created with Zarathos, a demon once rivaling mephisto. infinately more powerful that GRK. GRK was created by some crazy concoction(sp) of the blood and Noble Kale and whatever else. I'm still trying to make sense of it all.

8-There was a reason GRB could do all kinds of cool motorcycle stunts, Blaze was a world renouned stunt rider!! Why can GRK do cool motorcycle stunts?......just because.

9-GRB was mostly like a nomad, did lots of stuff in the desert, open road and such. GRK was mostly in the city, which gave GRK a decidedly less dark, mysterious and gritty feel to it.

10-The GRK writers played a game with us for years as to what GRK's true identity was, just to make up some crap to make him different from the original and make GRK their own. They didn't make GR better, they made him worse, much worse, lame and weaker. Fortunately the powers that be seem to understand that now, finally.

Now I know I stepped on a few toes, but the truth is simply that and had to be told. I understand being drawn to the first incarnation one was subjected to, I really do. Then when you go to the Blaze issues and try to get into it, it might be hard to get past the less exciting art of the 70's and 80's. All that is understood. However, when looked at objectively, the fact is that Blaze was a deeper, more realistic, more powerful, more interesting character that simply made sense (unlike GRK).

 

[Riding Ghost]

Well, my toes feel ok, I guess since i agree with you. Kinda hard to argue with what you said. Just 1 thing though, I wouldn't say the Ketch series doesn't deserve ANY respect. The 1st 40 or so issues were fairly entertaining. Still your right, it doesn't compare to Blazes GR.

 

[FlameHead]

Let's face it, whichever chacter you've fell for first will pretty much state how you feel. Those of us who started after the Blaze days generally like Dan's Ghost Rider. Those who started from the begininng, rather Blaze's version. It's like that for most anything; Michael Keaton as Batman for example. The only people that don't think he's the best Batman are those who love Adam West.

Before I reply to Fettstyls' post, I have to point out that I'm not starting an argument of any sort here. While everything you say is definatly valid, you have to realize that it's still your opinion. What I'm about to do is express my opinion on the Dan Ketch character, in regards to what you've said... and Don't get me wrong, I'm a huge fan of Blase and his Ghost Riding experiences as well. I just fell for Dan first and believe he deserves respect.

1-GRK is not a demon....stupid,nuff said.

If you think about it, Blaze's Ghost Rider wasn't even a real Ghost Rider. He was mearly a demon caught in the body of a man who was destined to be a Ghost Rider. The fact that he was just a demon doing demon things gives him no sense of a hero. What I liked about Dan's Ghost Rider is that he was a hero, be it anti or not. He did things with honor.

I understand that this is not everyone's cup of tea though. Most people enjoyed Ghost Rider's hard ass nature and total disregard for human life. While this is fantasticly cool, it just doesn't have that honor in a hero that I love about Ghost Rider II.

2-GRK can be defeated by Blazes hellfire shotgun, the same hellfire that GRK is made of.......dumb dumb idea, one of many dumb ideas by the GRK writers. The writers were fools for making a completely different character that just happens to look exactly like GRB.....stupid!!

Perhaps the writers were just building on the 'Fight Fire with Fire' moto. I can understand that most people enjoy Ghost Rider's invincability, it's kinda nice to give him a weakness. I mean, how much story would have been lost in the SuperMan universe if Kryptonite was never invented?

As for looking like Ghost Rider Blaze, I like the sense of history of the Ghost Rider legacy. I love to picture Ghost Rider's riding on horses back in medival times ridding the earth of those who should not dwell there. Why shouldn't they look alike? It's an entity, a spirit, that lives forever... no matter the host it resides in.

3-GRK wouldn't kill.

The world is riddled with murder, death, kills. Why would I want to excape into a comic book where the exact same thing happens?

The fact that Ghost Rider would not kill is what appealed to me most... and if you remmember, this is a decision that Noble made as the story progressed. He decided that death was not the way to go. That living the rest of their lives feeling the pain they've inflicted on others, 10 fold, was a far better way to punish. Death is quick. Death is only once. Endless pain is forever.

4-GRK's penance stare can't be projected like GRB, thus someone at a distance or someone like snowblind can escape penance.

This is probably my most favorite thing about Ghost Rider II. His penance stare is one of the best things ever created. Besides the fact that I'm not a fan of energy blasts (or whatever) flying from characters hands, this power inflicts so much fear... just in it's action. He actually had to go face to face with the baddie and force them the stare into the eyes of this flaming headed skull... only inches away. The fact that Ghost Rider had to beat the enemy senseless at times before that would happen was fantastic. I mean, Ghost Rider Blaze could have driven around all night on his bike, never getting off, just frying people. Dan's Ghost Rider had to work for the Vengeance on others. This proved for some pretty brutal beatings, draggings and various other pre Pennance stare pain.

Snowblind could not get the Pennance stare, you are correct. That wasn't because of him not being able to do it at a distance though. This was because he was blind and unable to look into Ghost Rider's eyes. He did get a savage beating though. Ghost Rider said something to the effect of not being able to feel eternal emotional pain for the rest of life will not prevent him from feeling any pain at all. Now, that was cool. (I'll be posting some pics in the Official Ghost Rider thread on this in the coming days)

5-GRB makes sense!! Why does the GRB look like he does? He's a demon. Most importantly, Why does GRB ride a bike? Because GRB can create stuff from his hellfire(unlike GRK) and chooses a bike because his host is a stunt rider who has some control over the demon and chooses a bike which GR retains Blazes riding abilities. Makes perfect sense. right. Why does GRK ride a bike??? Why was it a bike that was found in the junkyard???? No good reason at all, only a blatant attempt to make a cool looking comic. Which of course did look cool, I have every issue, even the crappy last ones, but that does not change the fact that GRK is very shallow compared to GRB.

I pretty sure the bike was in the yard because it was destined for Barbara to become Ghost Rider that night. The powers that be made sure she would get the bike. In fact, didn't she know the Bike was supposed to be there.

What made Dan's bike riding abilities make sense was the fact they made the bike a part of Ghost Rider and his abilities. The bike was connected to Ghost Rider, and in fact moved seemingly at it's own will. If Dan was 'destined' to be Ghost Rider, he had to keep that bike close. As you probably remember, he turned into the vengeance seeking demon by touching the medallioned gas cap. Without that, he'd be always Dan.

Plus, it's probably part of the Ghost Rider history that all those who are destined to be the hero have some sort of internal ability to ride already. It is a family tree of Ghost Rider history and we all know how abilities are passed generation by generation.

6-GRB is a badass with a badass attitude, he enjoys his mission, even laughs as he is frying souls. In fact GRB fried souls left and right. GRK would go issue after issue without frying a single soul. lame.

The fact that they took multiple issues to develop a story on a single character before frying their sould is a bad thing? Perhaps to you.

7-GRB was created with Zarathos, a demon once rivaling mephisto. infinately more powerful that GRK. GRK was created by some crazy concoction(sp) of the blood and Noble Kale and whatever else. I'm still trying to make sense of it all.

While I agree that the history is pretty confusing, you have to admit that the detail that went into it all was pretty impressive. The fact that they built a universal history for the character, long after the original one was introduced is big feat. It's not easy to reintroduce a character and make it fit in the same universe as the original. Most revamps just reintroduce the same character... with a new edge. Isn't it good that they kept Blaze's history going and made it part of the 2nd Ghost Rider's life?

Zarathos more powere for Ghost Rider? I think not. If that were true, he would still be in Blaze's body (being so powerful that Blaze would not have been able to rid himself of him) and would have won the battle waged on earth with the Demon mother Lilith. Yes, Ghost Rider had a bunch of friends to help, he still was instrumental in defeating the demon.

Also, this goes along with point number one. Zarathos is not a true Ghost Rider.

8-There was a reason GRB could do all kinds of cool motorcycle stunts, Blaze was a world renouned stunt rider!! Why can GRK do cool motorcycle stunts?......just because.

I can't remember Dan ever doing any cool stunts. Ghost Rider could, yes... but that's because he's Ghost Rider and he has a mystical Hellcycle.

Remember, Dan and Ghost Rider (Noble Kale) are not the same being. The same goes for Blaze and Zarathos. Blaze just happen to work in a Stunt show as a bike boy.

9-GRB was mostly like a nomad, did lots of stuff in the desert, open road and such. GRK was mostly in the city, which gave GRK a decidedly less dark, mysterious and gritty feel to it.

With that logic, one would think that you'd view Punisher as a non dark, mysterious and gritty character too... which we all know is false.

10-The GRK writers played a game with us for years as to what GRK's true identity was, just to make up some crap to make him different from the original and make GRK their own. They didn't make GR better, they made him worse, much worse, lame and weaker. Fortunately the powers that be seem to understand that now, finally.

In taking the years to develope the second Ghost Rider, they may have pissed a few people off. I tend to look at it differently because I read the letters pages in each and every one of the comics. What I seen was them listening to the suggestions most readers were making. They probably had a general idea what they were planning on doing but they wanted to see how people reacted to the character first. Plus, it's not easy developing a history from the present to the past... espcially when one character has already been developed. I give kudos to those many writers for doing the job they did.

I personally love the history that was developed with this character. I love the fact that Ghost Rider was turned from a demon that possess a man because of the ruler of hell into a purposeful being brought to this earth to do some good... and has been brought to earth forever (one could concieve). It gave the character a sense of purpose and let him exist forever. Without that history, we would have never seen the Ghost Rider of the 31 century or Ghost Rider 2099. We wouldn't have seen it because Ghost Rider would have just been another human possessing demon... and nothing more.

Phew. And that's the reason why it's taken me so long to do this post; I knew it would be along one.

 

[Fettstyl]

What took you so long?

Let's face it, whichever chacter you've fell for first will pretty much state how you feel. Those of us who started after the Blaze days generally like Dan's Ghost Rider. Those who started from the begininng, rather Blaze's version. It's like that for most anything; Michael Keaton as Batman for example. The only people that don't think he's the best Batman are those who love Adam West.

Thats why I said what I said at the end about understanding liking the one you were first subjected too. I'm glad you understand too.

Before I reply to Fettstyls' post, I have to point out that I'm not starting an argument of any sort here. While everything you say is definatly valid, you have to realize that it's still your opinion. What I'm about to do is express my opinion on the Dan Ketch character, in regards to what you've said... and Don't get me wrong, I'm a huge fan of Blase and his Ghost Riding experiences as well. I just fell for Dan first and believe he deserves respect.

Understood, and I appreciate the mature and thoughtful approach you have taken. Perhaps i shouldn't have said KGR deserved no respect, its just that sometimes it can be frustrating watching my fav character get ruined. I can't help but feel that, if a character is gonna be that different from the original, they should call it something else.

1-GRK is not a demon....stupid,nuff said.

If you think about it, Blaze's Ghost Rider wasn't even a real Ghost Rider. He was mearly a demon caught in the body of a man who was destined to be a Ghost Rider. The fact that he was just a demon doing demon things gives him no sense of a hero. What I liked about Dan's Ghost Rider is that he was a hero, be it anti or not. He did things with honor.

I'm not sure what you mean by real GR?? And yes he only did any good because of Blazes influence, Blaze was the hero/Zarathos was the power. Look at the GR, just look at him, he is evil, how could somthing that looked like that be good?-Blaze story explained that. Ketchs GR-not a demon AND good...a hero if you will. crazy IMHO

I understand that this is not everyone's cup of tea though. Most people enjoyed Ghost Rider's hard ass nature and total disregard for human life. While this is fantasticly cool, it just doesn't have that honor in a hero that I love about Ghost Rider II.

Yes, you got it. Blaze has the honor, or ketch even for that matter, not the GR himself. hmmmm, let me explain it another way, have you ever heard the term "willing suspension of belief" ? What it means is when reading a comic or watching a movie, we are willing to accept that comic characters can do things that are not necessarily likely, or even possible, in real life. We accept that the action hero can run across an open area unscathed as bullets whiz by him in every direction, we accept that he can run miles on end without getting exhuasted, etc. We accept these things because we are aware that comics operate on a heightened sense of reality, but occasionally a comic will press its prerogative to embellish to the point where the readers collectively think, "no way!" as if someone throws the common sense switch in our brains and the comic loses us at that point. When you try to say that something like the GR is not a demon and that something like the GR is inherently good, It doesn't add up.

2-GRK can be defeated by Blazes hellfire shotgun, the same hellfire that GRK is made of.......dumb dumb idea, one of many dumb ideas by the GRK writers. The writers were fools for making a completely different character that just happens to look exactly like GRB.....stupid!!

Perhaps the writers were just building on the 'Fight Fire with Fire' moto. I can understand that most people enjoy Ghost Rider's invincability, it's kinda nice to give him a weakness. I mean, how much story would have been lost in the SuperMan universe if Kryptonite was never invented?

As for looking like Ghost Rider Blaze, I like the sense of history of the Ghost Rider legacy. I love to picture Ghost Rider's riding on horses back in medival times ridding the earth of those who should not dwell there. Why shouldn't they look alike? It's an entity, a spirit, that lives forever... no matter the host it resides in.

-"Fight fire with fire"......if that is what they were thinking, everything I called them is even more true.
-GRBlaze did just fine being invincable thank you very much

no prob with stories.
-as for the look alike thing, I'm sorry but they look exactly alike.......yet they are completely different?!?........have you ever heard of "willing suspension of belief"? wait, I think I covered that.

3-GRK wouldn't kill.

The world is riddled with murder, death, kills. Why would I want to excape into a comic book where the exact same thing happens?

Gimme a break. sheeesh

The fact that Ghost Rider would not kill is what appealed to me most... and if you remmember, this is a decision that Noble made as the story progressed. He decided that death was not the way to go. That living the rest of their lives feeling the pain they've inflicted on others, 10 fold, was a far better way to punish. Death is quick. Death is only once. Endless pain is forever..

Funny, i don't actually remember GR Blaze killing anyone, maybe he did, I just don't remember. He normally just fried their soul abd made them suffer 'till they did die, as you said about GRK. I think the main thing was that GRK made such a big deal about not killing. Besides I always hated the way spiderman lets people go so THEY can kill again....crazy man.

4-GRK's penance stare can't be projected like GRB, thus someone at a distance or someone like snowblind can escape penance.

This is probably my most favorite thing about Ghost Rider II. His penance stare is one of the best things ever created. Besides the fact that I'm not a fan of energy blasts (or whatever) flying from characters hands, this power inflicts so much fear... just in it's action. He actually had to go face to face with the baddie and force them the stare into the eyes of this flaming headed skull... only inches away. The fact that Ghost Rider had to beat the enemy senseless at times before that would happen was fantastic. I mean, Ghost Rider Blaze could have driven around all night on his bike, never getting off, just frying people. Dan's Ghost Rider had to work for the Vengeance on others. This proved for some pretty brutal beatings, draggings and various other pre Pennance stare pain...

Thats my point GRK HAS TO beat them down GRB had a choice, due to his superior power

Snowblind could not get the Pennance stare, you are correct. That wasn't because of him not being able to do it at a distance though. This was because he was blind and unable to look into Ghost Rider's eyes. He did get a savage beating though. Ghost Rider said something to the effect of not being able to feel eternal emotional pain for the rest of life will not prevent him from feeling any pain at all. Now, that was cool. (I'll be posting some pics in the Official Ghost Rider thread on this in the coming days)...

Right, my point. GRB could have walked right up to snowblind and fried his soul. And lets face it having your soul burnt is worse than an ass beating.

5-GRB makes sense!! Why does the GRB look like he does? He's a demon. Most importantly, Why does GRB ride a bike? Because GRB can create stuff from his hellfire(unlike GRK) and chooses a bike because his host is a stunt rider who has some control over the demon and chooses a bike which GR retains Blazes riding abilities. Makes perfect sense. right. Why does GRK ride a bike??? Why was it a bike that was found in the junkyard???? No good reason at all, only a blatant attempt to make a cool looking comic. Which of course did look cool, I have every issue, even the crappy last ones, but that does not change the fact that GRK is very shallow compared to GRB.

I pretty sure the bike was in the yard because it was destined for Barbara to become Ghost Rider that night. The powers that be made sure she would get the bike. In fact, didn't she know the Bike was supposed to be there.

What made Dan's bike riding abilities make sense was the fact they made the bike a part of Ghost Rider and his abilities. The bike was connected to Ghost Rider, and in fact moved seemingly at it's own will. If Dan was 'destined' to be Ghost Rider, he had to keep that bike close. As you probably remember, he turned into the vengeance seeking demon by touching the medallioned gas cap. Without that, he'd be always Dan.

Plus, it's probably part of the Ghost Rider history that all those who are destined to be the hero have some sort of internal ability to ride already. It is a family tree of Ghost Rider history and we all know how abilities are passed generation by generation.

Why?why? and why?

6-GRB is a badass with a badass attitude, he enjoys his mission, even laughs as he is frying souls. In fact GRB fried souls left and right. GRK would go issue after issue without frying a single soul. lame.

The fact that they took multiple issues to develop a story on a single character before frying their sould is a bad thing? Perhaps to you.

It was lame and weak. IMHO

7-GRB was created with Zarathos, a demon once rivaling mephisto. infinately more powerful that GRK. GRK was created by some crazy concoction(sp) of the blood and Noble Kale and whatever else. I'm still trying to make sense of it all.

While I agree that the history is pretty confusing, you have to admit that the detail that went into it all was pretty impressive. The fact that they built a universal history for the character, long after the original one was introduced is big feat. It's not easy to reintroduce a character and make it fit in the same universe as the original. Most revamps just reintroduce the same character... with a new edge. Isn't it good that they kept Blaze's history going and made it part of the 2nd Ghost Rider's life?

Zarathos more powere for Ghost Rider? I think not. If that were true, he would still be in Blaze's body (being so powerful that Blaze would not have been able to rid himself of him) and would have won the battle waged on earth with the Demon mother Lilith. Yes, Ghost Rider had a bunch of friends to help, he still was instrumental in defeating the demon.

Also, this goes along with point number one. Zarathos is not a true Ghost Rider..

-your first paragragh above is ridiculous
-if you think GR is more powerful than Zarathos, you really don't know what the H your talking about...It ain't even close.
-Zarathos GR was ridin first, I still don't know what you mean by that?

8-There was a reason GRB could do all kinds of cool motorcycle stunts, Blaze was a world renouned stunt rider!! Why can GRK do cool motorcycle stunts?......just because.

I can't remember Dan ever doing any cool stunts. Ghost Rider could, yes... but that's because he's Ghost Rider and he has a mystical Hellcycle.

Remember, Dan and Ghost Rider (Noble Kale) are not the same being. The same goes for Blaze and Zarathos. Blaze just happen to work in a Stunt show as a bike boy.

Bike boy at a stunt show??? you really are out of familiar territory when it comes to GRB aren't you?

9-GRB was mostly like a nomad, did lots of stuff in the desert, open road and such. GRK was mostly in the city, which gave GRK a decidedly less dark, mysterious and gritty feel to it.

With that logic, one would think that you'd view Punisher as a non dark, mysterious and gritty character too... which we all know is false..

I said "decidedly less" not non existant.

10-The GRK writers played a game with us for years as to what GRK's true identity was, just to make up some crap to make him different from the original and make GRK their own. They didn't make GR better, they made him worse, much worse, lame and weaker. Fortunately the powers that be seem to understand that now, finally.

In taking the years to develope the second Ghost Rider, they may have pissed a few people off. I tend to look at it differently because I read the letters pages in each and every one of the comics. What I seen was them listening to the suggestions most readers were making. They probably had a general idea what they were planning on doing but they wanted to see how people reacted to the character first. Plus, it's not easy developing a history from the present to the past... espcially when one character has already been developed. I give kudos to those many writers for doing the job they did.

I personally love the history that was developed with this character. I love the fact that Ghost Rider was turned from a demon that possess a man because of the ruler of hell into a purposeful being brought to this earth to do some good... and has been brought to earth forever (one could concieve). It gave the character a sense of purpose and let him exist forever. Without that history, we would have never seen the Ghost Rider of the 31 century or Ghost Rider 2099. We wouldn't have seen it because Ghost Rider would have just been another human possessing demon... and nothing more...

- ya know they easily could have just posted the letters that went along their line of thinking.
-But be that as it may, really, I disagree with everything you just said, I guess I'm one of those poor slobs who got pissed off. Everything I said in statement 10 was dead on and I stand by it.

Phew. And that's the reason why it's taken me so long to do this post; I knew it would be along one.

Word on that brother.
But I appreciate you taking the time. I enjoyed it. We both know the end result is that we will have to agree to disagree, but one thing both of us can agree on, is that GR future looks bright and the movie is gonna kick ass.

 

[FlameHead]

I'm not sure what you mean by real GR??....

In the history that was developed in developing the 2nd Ghost Rider we learnt that Zarathos was just a demon (which I understand is what YOU love about the character) who was bonded to Blaze. We also found out that the form that Zarthos was in during those days was not his true form. It was that of a Ghost Rider. A Ghost Rider being a demonic bounty hunter who lives for one thing; to give pain to those who cause it.

Zarathos is not a Ghost Rider, as defined in the later series. That's what I mean by he's not a real Ghost Rider.

as for the look alike thing, I'm sorry but they look exactly alike.......yet they are completely different?!?........have you ever heard of "willing suspension of belief"? wait, I think I covered that.

The look exactly alike because Zarathos was created to look exactly like a Ghost Rider, as I just mentioned.

...Besides I always hated the way spiderman lets people go so THEY can kill again....crazy man.

I'm all for catch and release... to the proper authorities. I don't think anyone deserves to unwillingly die by any other persons hands. That goes for real life and the comic world. The fact that Ghost Rider II would rather his victims live in eternal pain than die is pretty freakin cool... IMO, of course.

Zarathos GR was ridin first, I still don't know what you mean by that?

Yes, he was brought to our attention first but, in the history that was developed, he is not the first Ghost Rider. He is mearly a demon that materialized as a Ghost Rider.

Word on that brother.
But I appreciate you taking the time. I enjoyed it. We both know the end result is that we will have to agree to disagree, but one thing both of us can agree on, is that GR future looks bright and the movie is gonna kick ass.

You're right on one thing (and on many of the things you say to some people), we are definatly going to have to learn to agree to disagree. I knew that as soon as I started replyin' to your original post. This is a fight that will likely go on for as long as the Character is loved by people like us.

I like reading your opinions and I do understand the love of Blaze and the original character. What I can't understand is how someone who loves that character so much could hate the other equally as much. I can't understand how someone could not see some good in a character that is in essance the same as the original... but, I guess that's what you hate; the fact that they created another when they could have just kept the first.

To each their own.