Sequels "Going Wrath Of Khan":The Official MOS Action Thread

[TheComicbookKid]

All-Star Superman, KC worse than SR? ROFLMAO!

Who said that? Guard said ASS wasn't impressive. My point about KC is that how can people hold that up as an example of a great Supeman story when he does basically the same thing you complain about him doing in SR. Abandoning his responsiblilities?

 

[SuperDaniel]

The difference is that is a well told story by a guy who understands Superman: Mark Waid.

Superman abandons his responsibilty because Kansas, his home is gone, everybody he loves is dead. Everything he swore to protect. Not only that, his faith in people diminished because they released Gog. Justice didnt work anymore. This is way more powerfull than what was in SR.

Add that with all the horoes from the DC universe, lots of mythollogy, bible references and you have one of the greatest stories ever told in the comics.

Comparing that to SR is a joke.

In SR he abandons Earth to see if Krypton is alive. That is valid, IMO. But the way he does that is completely out of character. He doesnt say goodbye to anybdoy, to Lois particularly. He was in a relationship with her, had sex. He acted totally irresponsible. And the reason for that? He didnt have the guts to say it? WTF

Add this with way too many Donner homages, campy Luthor and his stupid ****e and goons, stupid plot about real-state, actors with no chemestry and you have a ****ty movie.

In short terms, KC was a great story about redemption. SR wasnt. Its simple as that.

 

[TheComicbookKid]

The difference is that is a well told story by a guy who understands Superman: Mark Waid.

Superman abandons his responsibilty because Kansas, his home is gone, everybody he loves is dead. Everything he swore to protect. Not only that, his faith in people diminished because they released Gog. Justice didnt work anymore. This is way more powerfull than what was in SR.

Add that with all the horoes from the DC universe, lots of mythollogy, bible references and you have one of the greatest stories ever told in the comics.

Comparing that to SR is a joke.

In SR he abandons Earth to see if Krypton is alive. That is valid, IMO. But the way he does that is completely out of character. He doesnt say goodbye to anybdoy, to Lois particularly. He was in a relationship with her, had sex. He acted totally irresponsible. And the reason for that? He didnt have the guts to say it? WTF

Add this with way too many Donner homages, campy Luthor and his stupid ****e and goons, stupid plot about real-state, actors with no chemestry and you have a ****ty movie.

In short terms, KC was a great story about redemption. SR wasnt. Its simple as that.

Kingdom Come is a great story. No doubt. But Superman(for me) is all about hope and overcoming. He defends the entire Earth not certain people. Superman should have died before giving up like that. I'm certainly not telling Mark Waid how to write Superman, but in SR he went into space because he had hope something was there. It's suppose to be a freaking advanced civilization.

Leaving without telling Lois bye was wrong. Which he paid the price for and accepted responsiblity for. "I'm sorry I left you." isn't like "Damn, why didn't you wait for me."

I always hate(not talking about you or anyone on the boards) when I talk to people and they say Superman is too perfect. Superman makes mistakes. Taking responsiblity for those mistakes honestly is what makes him cool to me. (Like in SR and in SII when he promises to the President even though that's a huge plot hole in itselft: )

 

[SuperDaniel]

The Superman I know wouldnt leave like that. Like a selfish irresponsible kid.

Like i said, i like the themes of SR, hate the way it was executed. Plus cutting RTK ddint help at all.

But hey, i like a lot of stuff in SR. But when i think about its mistakes, i get pissed off.

I just hate Donner`s Luthor.

I just keep imagining. Superman leaves to Krypton and comes back and Luthor is loved by Metropolis, runs LexCorp, Brainiac comes to Earth... The whole movie being about Krypton vs Earth. Alien herietage vs humanity.

NOW THIS IS A SUPERMAN MOVIE.

Not Singer`s soap-opera. Do u realize how a little change makes a whole lot of difference?

 

[TheComicbookKid]

The Superman I know wouldnt leave like that. Like a selfish irresponsible kid.

Like i said, i like the themes of SR, hate the way it was executed. Plus cutting RTK ddint help at all.

Agreed about RTK.

Funny thing about Singer to me is he actually addressed almost everything people complained about but cut it from the film.

-the explanation of the crystals was cut.
-Lex being responsible for Superman leaving.
-Martha's explaination of the letters to Lois and not wanting to come back.
-Even the scene of him looking at Johnathan's picture on the suit reinforced the idea of the importance of his Earthly parents.
-Him forgetting his suit shows that Clark Kent isn't the mask.

 

[SuperDaniel]

Well...i cant argue with that. But SR is what it is. With the cuts and all. And i have to judge it based on what i`ve seen.

 

[TheComicbookKid]

The Superman I know wouldnt leave like that. Like a selfish irresponsible kid.

Like i said, i like the themes of SR, hate the way it was executed. Plus cutting RTK ddint help at all.

But hey, i like a lot of stuff in SR. But when i think about its mistakes, i get pissed off.

I just hate Donner`s Luthor.

I just keep imagining. Superman leaves to Krypton and comes back and Luthor is loved by Metropolis, runs LexCorp, Brainiac comes to Earth... The whole movie being about Krypton vs Earth. Alien herietage vs humanity.

NOW THIS IS A SUPERMAN MOVIE.

Not Singer`s soap-opera. Do u realize how a little change makes a whole lot of difference?

That too sounds like a good Superman movie.

The idea of leaving Earth in any capacity would be deemed by some(including John Bryne) as irresponsible.

Superman is an interrpetation. By definition, people's values are going to placed into him and see different things.

 

[SuperDaniel]

As long as it is done right, i`m all for it. EXILE was a great story in the comics,

 

[TheComicbookKid]

I'm about to go.

Hopefully, if there is a sequel, that it will meet so many people's expectations and make boatloads of money that Superman will be revitalized in a way for the 21st century. I'd hate to be arguing over a year later again.

 

[VenomsMom]

Agreed about RTK.

Funny thing about Singer to me is he actually addressed almost everything people complained about but cut it from the film.

-the explanation of the crystals was cut.
-Lex being responsible for Superman leaving.
-Martha's explaination of the letters to Lois and not wanting to come back.
-Even the scene of him looking at Johnathan's picture on the suit reinforced the idea of the importance of his Earthly parents.
-Him forgetting his suit shows that Clark Kent isn't the mask.

These were very important scenes that would have contributed to the story but he left them out which is why for me it is simply not worthy of being an interesting movie.

 

[VenomsMom]

I just hate Donner`s Luthor.

I just keep imagining. Superman leaves to Krypton and comes back and Luthor is loved by Metropolis, runs LexCorp, Brainiac comes to Earth... The whole movie being about Krypton vs Earth. Alien herietage vs humanity.

NOW THIS IS A SUPERMAN MOVIE.

Not Singer`s soap-opera. Do u realize how a little change makes a whole lot of difference?

Couldnt agree more. The whole theme could have played much better going in this direction. His absence boasting Lex into powerful and merciless man whom has become more ambitious in what he is trying to accomplish. Superman having to erase what Lex has created and stop him from what he is ultimately trying to do. That would have rocked.

 

[The Guard]

The difference is that is a well told story by a guy who understands Superman: Mark Waid.

Obviously Waid doesn't quite understand Superman completely because he presents a Superman who abandons The Earth because he loses a popularity contest/feels the humans have become too vindicative and because Lois and the Kents are dead. And who then rejects his humanity over all of this. Since when has Superman only been about protecting Lois and the Kents, or Smallville? And then, when Waid's KC Superman returns, what's he do? He builds an army and tries to force other metahumans into cooperating with him and his league, without ever consulting any of the human leaders about what he's doing.

Superman abandons his responsibilty because Kansas, his home is gone, everybody he loves is dead. Everything he swore to protect. Not only that, his faith in people diminished because they released Gog. Justice didnt work anymore. This is way more powerfull than what was in SR.

More powerful? Maybe in terms of drama, but not in terms of how appropriate his reason for leaving is. Superman loses his faith in people so he gives up protecting them? That's simply ridiculous in the context of Superman.

Add that with all the horoes from the DC universe, lots of mythollogy, bible references and you have one of the greatest stories ever told in the comics.

Comparing that to SR is a joke.

It's a great story. But it's not a Superman one. It's a story about the DC Universe in general. Of course it's going to be "better" on some level.

In SR he abandons Earth to see if Krypton is alive. That is valid, IMO. But the way he does that is completely out of character. He doesnt say goodbye to anybdoy, to Lois particularly. He was in a relationship with her, had sex. He acted totally irresponsible. And the reason for that? He didnt have the guts to say it? WTF

So it's out of character. He doesn't "abandon" the Earth, though. He doesn't make a concentrated effort not to be involved with the human race as he does in KINGDOM COME. He goes to Krypton to see if his civilization is still alive.

He's all too human, and he's not perfect. Even if he and Lois had sex, how's he to know Lois is even capable of having his child? Lois clearly was not ever interested in Clark, and Superman could hardly be with her just as Superman with his responsibilities, and so he felt like he couldn't be with her. He felt like he didn't belong, period. Is it the perfect motivation for leaving? No, but it's a heck of a lot better than "You want me to kill an evil man, I hate you all, I'm not going to protect you anymore".

 

[Nightwing1977]

KC, one of the greatest superhero tales of all time, is as good as SR? LMAO. You supporters make me laugh with this bs.

Who said KC is good as SR? I never said that. I think you did right there. We're talking about Superman abandon those he protect in both KC & SR, not which is better. Read again instead of crossing your eyes. Thing is, you hate that Superman abandon Earth in SR, but have no problem with him doing something similiar in KC. Hypocrite.

Anyway...where`s the sequel if SR was soo good? ha ha ha ha

Are you expecting a SR sequel to come out right now, smartass? WB is focusing on JLA right now. Once it finish filming or it come out, then we'll find out about the sequel. You done nothing to bring hard proof that the sequel isn't happening or that Singer is fired. Do you work for WB or something?

All-Star Superman, KC worse than SR? ROFLMAO!

Again, who said that? Stop thinking what some say & post it. Read what some of us really said. You sure act like a stupid Joker.

 

[Nixon]

Superman going back to Krypton isn't completely unreasonable or particularly out of character given what we've seen of him in the Donner films. I mean, we've already seen Superman, in an attempt to belong and connect with someone, surender his powers and effectively abandon the Earth. Going back to Krypton is the same sort of thing. Going back to Krypton means for Superman going back to a place where he's not a saviour and a demigod and always set apart because of his duties; it means going to a place where he's like everyone else and where he can belong.

Sure it's selfish but it's also human and understandable. One of Singer's mistakes with Superman Returns was not making this point more clear. I think that there was something of it in the teaser trailer when we hear Superman explain "that it's not easy living my life there, being who I am." It's still there in the movie, this idea I mean, but it's very subtle and I think more than a few people would've missed it.

If we want to think about this in terms of the Christ metaphor/symbolism, something that was all over in this movie, going back to Krypton is Superman's moment of doubt in the garden, it's him asking to have the cup taken away. It's the messiah's moment of humanity.

It's not the first time that we've seen movie Superman do this sort of thing, have moments of doubt and weakness and stark humanity, and it probably won't be the last.


I wonder if there's anything to considering the symbolism of Superman throwing away New Krypton, his Kryptonian heritage that was given free reign and threatening to destroy humanity, to save his adopted planet? Maybe the symbolic power of this act is that it shows Superman deciding that Earth is more than simply his adopted planet, it's also his home. Just a thought.

 

[SuperDaniel]

I`ve said countless times that my problem with SR is not Superman going to Krypton...Its not leaving Earth. Its how he does it and what happens when he comes back...

 

[SuperDaniel]

Obviously Waid doesn't quite understand Superman completely because he presents a Superman who abandons The Earth because he loses a popularity contest/feels the humans have become too vindicative and because Lois and the Kents are dead. And who then rejects his humanity over all of this. Since when has Superman only been about protecting Lois and the Kents, or Smallville? And then, when Waid's KC Superman returns, what's he do? He builds an army and tries to force other metahumans into cooperating with him and his league, without ever consulting any of the human leaders about what he's doing.



More powerful? Maybe in terms of drama, but not in terms of how appropriate his reason for leaving is. Superman loses his faith in people so he gives up protecting them? That's simply ridiculous in the context of Superman.



It's a great story. But it's not a Superman one. It's a story about the DC Universe in general. Of course it's going to be "better" on some level.



So it's out of character. He doesn't "abandon" the Earth, though. He doesn't make a concentrated effort not to be involved with the human race as he does in KINGDOM COME. He goes to Krypton to see if his civilization is still alive.

He's all too human, and he's not perfect. Even if he and Lois had sex, how's he to know Lois is even capable of having his child? Lois clearly was not ever interested in Clark, and Superman could hardly be with her just as Superman with his responsibilities, and so he felt like he couldn't be with her. He felt like he didn't belong, period. Is it the perfect motivation for leaving? No, but it's a heck of a lot better than "You want me to kill an evil man, I hate you all, I'm not going to protect you anymore".

You make laugh. You put flaws in KC, one of the best DC story ever told and praise SR. ROFLMAO.

 

[wellsy]

Wrong. He was pointing out the flaws in your analogy between SR and KC. You're hyporcitical (savaging Superman for leaving for Krypton in SR, trying to SAVE and survivors, while perfectly understanding the very selfish reason of him just saying "You bunch of twits don't deserve my protection anymore" [and if Supes ever were to say that, then I would reply "Good, I don't want it you condescending newt"]), to say the least.

Or is it simply that KC was a comic book. I somehow think it does...

 

[SuperDaniel]

^^Read my posts...I never said i didnt like Superman leaving for Krypton.

I said :"In SR he abandons Earth to see if Krypton is alive. That is valid, IMO. "

I hate how he does it and what happens when he comes back. I hate repeating myself all the time.

 

[El Payaso]

I hate repeating myself all the time.

LOL

 

[wellsy]

So Spidey, just because Supes is from Krypton, he isn't allowed to feel, oh, what's that word?

That's it - Human!

Because humans do stupid things, they make mistakes, the have issues. Supes knew Lois would be fine to handle herself, but felt that had he said goodbye to her, he might not leave. In order to do his duty (albeit self-appointed), he had to put any possible survivors of Krypton ahead of his relationship with Lois. THAT, is heroic. Putting the wants and needs of others above those of oneself, is one of the most heroic things one can do.

His then dealing with the consequences of that decision, to leave without saying goodbye, is where drama comes in, because, these days, so many people seem obsessed with absolving all responsibility and culpability of themselves, and it is good to see Supes actually saying "I'm sorry, it was stupid. I can only hope you understand and can forgive me" because that is what Superman is supposed to be; an example, a moral compass in a world where right and wrong are no longer clear-cut. Supes is accepting responsibility for making a bad choice to do the right thing (ie leaving is the bad choice, saving survivors is the right thing), and so saying that you must accept the consequences of your actions, because they often do speak louder than words.

Is that making any sense to you?

 

[AVEITWITHJAMON]

Superman going back to Krypton isn't completely unreasonable or particularly out of character given what we've seen of him in the Donner films. I mean, we've already seen Superman, in an attempt to belong and connect with someone, surender his powers and effectively abandon the Earth. Going back to Krypton is the same sort of thing. Going back to Krypton means for Superman going back to a place where he's not a saviour and a demigod and always set apart because of his duties; it means going to a place where he's like everyone else and where he can belong.

Sure it's selfish but it's also human and understandable. One of Singer's mistakes with Superman Returns was not making this point more clear. I think that there was something of it in the teaser trailer when we hear Superman explain "that it's not easy living my life there, being who I am." It's still there in the movie, this idea I mean, but it's very subtle and I think more than a few people would've missed it.

If we want to think about this in terms of the Christ metaphor/symbolism, something that was all over in this movie, going back to Krypton is Superman's moment of doubt in the garden, it's him asking to have the cup taken away. It's the messiah's moment of humanity.

It's not the first time that we've seen movie Superman do this sort of thing, have moments of doubt and weakness and stark humanity, and it probably won't be the last.


I wonder if there's anything to considering the symbolism of Superman throwing away New Krypton, his Kryptonian heritage that was given free reign and threatening to destroy humanity, to save his adopted planet? Maybe the symbolic power of this act is that it shows Superman deciding that Earth is more than simply his adopted planet, it's also his home. Just a thought.

Great post, and from someone who has obviously watched SR more than once or twice as these things arent easy to spot in the movie, and as you said, perhaps Singer could have made it more clear for the people who dont like digging too deep (which there is NOTHING wrong with BTW).

But i love these theme's in the movie, especially the act of tossing that last piece of his homeworld into space to save his adopted one. In that one act alone, i think he finally accepts Earth as his true home now, and the place he is meant to be, which he obviously didnt think when he left for Krypton.

More evidence of character development from those who think there is non in SR.

So Spidey, just because Supes is from Krypton, he isn't allowed to feel, oh, what's that word?

That's it - Human!

Because humans do stupid things, they make mistakes, the have issues. Supes knew Lois would be fine to handle herself, but felt that had he said goodbye to her, he might not leave. In order to do his duty (albeit self-appointed), he had to put any possible survivors of Krypton ahead of his relationship with Lois. THAT, is heroic. Putting the wants and needs of others above those of oneself, is one of the most heroic things one can do.

His then dealing with the consequences of that decision, to leave without saying goodbye, is where drama comes in, because, these days, so many people seem obsessed with absolving all responsibility and culpability of themselves, and it is good to see Supes actually saying "I'm sorry, it was stupid. I can only hope you understand and can forgive me" because that is what Superman is supposed to be; an example, a moral compass in a world where right and wrong are no longer clear-cut. Supes is accepting responsibility for making a bad choice to do the right thing (ie leaving is the bad choice, saving survivors is the right thing), and so saying that you must accept the consequences of your actions, because they often do speak louder than words.

Is that making any sense to you?

Again, great post, this Superman was raised by humans, so he is flawed like a human, whichever way people choose to look at it, this is a factor of the character.

Plus, i'd much rather see Superman, owing to making a mistake and saying sorry, than turning back time to erase ALL of his previous mistakes.

At least he had the balls to accept and apologise for his mistake's, and the brains to learn from them. Anyone recall the line "Bye Lois" from the end of the movie .

 

[Nightwing1977]

I hate repeating myself all the time.

Then why did you do it on refering to thinking some say SR is good as KC? Hmmm? Don't repeat yourself all the time if you hate it. We heard it the first time loud & clear.

 

[SuperDaniel]

Is just that i have to explain why i didnt like the movie so many times. We discussed this to death in why some superman fans dont like Sr... People also keep putting things in my mouth that i didnt say. The devote a huge post to explain that Sm return to Krypton is valid and i said so many times that that is not my problem with the movie.

 

[SuperDaniel]

So Spidey, just because Supes is from Krypton, he isn't allowed to feel, oh, what's that word?

That's it - Human!

Because humans do stupid things, they make mistakes, the have issues. Supes knew Lois would be fine to handle herself, but felt that had he said goodbye to her, he might not leave. In order to do his duty (albeit self-appointed), he had to put any possible survivors of Krypton ahead of his relationship with Lois. THAT, is heroic. Putting the wants and needs of others above those of oneself, is one of the most heroic things one can do.

His then dealing with the consequences of that decision, to leave without saying goodbye, is where drama comes in, because, these days, so many people seem obsessed with absolving all responsibility and culpability of themselves, and it is good to see Supes actually saying "I'm sorry, it was stupid. I can only hope you understand and can forgive me" because that is what Superman is supposed to be; an example, a moral compass in a world where right and wrong are no longer clear-cut. Supes is accepting responsibility for making a bad choice to do the right thing (ie leaving is the bad choice, saving survivors is the right thing), and so saying that you must accept the consequences of your actions, because they often do speak louder than words.

Is that making any sense to you?

It is but you`re confusing the characters. You`re talking about Spider-man not Superman.

I`m going to explain my point of view for one last time so everyone gets it.

The Superman i know doesnt put one danger over the other. He tries to save everybody. NOW THAT IS TO BE HERO. He is not a good hero. HE IS THE ****ING BEST OF THEM ALL.

The Superman i know is an example and ALWAYS does the right thing and when he doesnt, its always with good intentions because he always puts others before him. Superman is always sure he will do the right thing. He just knows it. He knows how to do it. He learned that from the Kents. The Kents arent just a normal couple. They are the ****ing best parents in this world.

Lois & Clark relationship isnt like our relationship. They are an example of how couples should act.

A Superman who`s afraid of saying goodbye is a selfish, irresponsible, immature person and that is a OUT OF CHARACTER.

Clark Kent became a man and became a better person when he decided to use his powers for good. When a)Jonathan Kent died b)Tornado hits. Whatever u prefer, pre-crisis or post-crisis, is the same consequence. He becomes more than a man. An example.

He`s not just human. He is SUPERman. The best human!

The Superman i know WOULD Return to Krypton and WOULD explain to everybody why he`s leaving and especially to Lois.

Yes, leaving without saying goodbye is a conflict. However, Bryan Singer created a conflict thats is unnaceptable for the character of SM, IMO.

A conflict that fits the story he tried to tell but IT IS NOT a Superman story.

A Superman conflict is, for example:

-In STM, when a guy with all this powers realize he cant save everybody.

-Or in SII to be human or use my powers for good?

-Or to kill or not? like action comics#775, whatever happened to the man of tomorrow

-How to make the world a better place = the never-ending battle, Superman Peace on Earth, etc.


Bryan Singer is a great director but is not right for Superman

Him and most of the world only understands Marvel characters. They are like us, relatable, make mistakes. DC characters are based in archetypes, myths.

Singer Marvelized Superman, striped him away of the Super part of his character, personality IMO.

I dont care if he redeems himself through the film. The Superman i grew up with and learned to care and admire just wouldnt pass through this journey because he wouldnt commit this childish mistake in the first place.

Lets not get into the Richard/Jason/Whos the father problem in the future,Lois Lane without her spunkness, Dr Evil Luthor and his stupid goons, cut of pivotal scenes of the movie, the terrible costume and overall feeling of the movie.

Superman is a though character to write and Bryan Singer and his dynamic duo failed miserably, IMO.

Got it now?

 

[SuperDaniel]

I`ll get to my other and probably 2nd most important problem with SR later: Richard White.