Goku Vs. Silver Surfer!

[Endless Mike]

Since he has failed to prove his lightspeed assertion, he has nothing and has conceeded the debate.

Surfer wins.

 

[Jplaya2023]

Since he has failed to prove his lightspeed assertion, he has nothing and has conceeded the debate.

Surfer wins.

Vegeta sensed the ginyu forces ship heading towards namek which traveled FTL. He was unable to sense frieza's attacks in form 4.

Assertion proved by way of canon

 

[Endless Mike]

Well at least you quoted correctly this time, but I already explained this to you.

Parallax.

The moon moves thousands of miles per hour, yet it is easy to see.

A fly, at top speed, only moves a few miles per hour, yet if it is buzzing around you erratically it is very hard to see.

 

[Jplaya2023]

Well at least you quoted correctly this time.

No need to "explain" Vegeta sensed the ginyu force ships which travel ftl and couldnt sense form 4 frieza's movements

conclusion every char after the frieza saga is much faster than light.

 

[Endless Mike]

And since I can see the moon, I can move faster than thousands of miles per hour.

 

[Jplaya2023]

And since I can see the moon, I can move faster than thousands of miles per hour.

baka, are the ginyu space pods the size of the moon??? No

Is the moon traveling at linear speeds toward a specific destination?

 

[Endless Mike]

All of that is irrelevant.

The point is that depending on your perspective, it can be easier to detect objects moving at higher speeds than at lower speeds.

If you like, substitute the moon for an airplane. Same principle.

 

[Jplaya2023]

All of that is irrelevant.

Because it destroys your argument

The point is that depending on your perspective, it can be easier to detect objects moving at higher speeds than at lower speeds.

Only if the object is within normal perception. Vegeta sensed them million of miles out in space and knew from the "KI's" it was the ginyu force.

If you like, substitute the moon for an airplane. Same principle.

The only time a normal human can see or perceive an airplane in flight is if it just takes off , or if its coming down for landing.

If im in Denver, i cant sense a plane coming from california until it begins to land in denver or comes down far enough from the sky in which i can perceive it.

But the only thing that matters is vegeta sensed 5 ships that go faster than light and couldnt perceive freiza's movements at perfect form.

Conclusion: frieza = lightspeed

deal with it.

 

[Sloth7d]

You people are forgetting one thing.
Sensing=/=seeing.
You can't disprove Freeza not beeing lightspeed with an explanation of how you can see a big moon fly pass at thousands of miles per hour yet not see a bug fly by when they aren't the same thing.

 

[Jplaya2023]

You people are forgetting one thing.
Sensing=/=seeing.
You can't disprove Freeza not beeing lightspeed with an explanation of how you can see a big moon fly pass at thousands of miles per hour yet not see a bug fly by when they aren't the same thing.

exactly, but his bias wont allow him to differentiate between the 2.

The bigger the object the more visible the objects will be to anyone. Vegeta senses ships big enough to hold one passenger, that were flying FTL

 

[Endless Mike]

Because it destroys your argument

No, because it has no bearing on my argument.

Only if the object is within normal perception. Vegeta sensed them million of miles out in space and knew from the "KI's" it was the ginyu force.

That only proves that ki emissions in DBZ that can be sensed travel faster than light. It ignores the issue of parallax and how it is so much easier to detect an object travelling in a straight path at a fixed speed (which can easily be predicted) far away from you than an object zipping around erratically right next to you.

The only time a normal human can see or perceive an airplane in flight is if it just takes off , or if its coming down for landing.

My house is over a major air route. I can go outside any time of the day or night and look up in the sky for a few minutes, and chances are I'll spot a plane. You have no idea what you're talking about.

If im in Denver, i cant sense a plane coming from california until it begins to land in denver or comes down far enough from the sky in which i can perceive it.

Because it is obscured by the clouds and the curvature of the earth, and its relative size is small compared to that distance.

Compare this to sensing the Ginyu's ki, which was not obscured by any obstacles and is not dependent on size for accurate perception.

But the only thing that matters is vegeta sensed 5 ships that go faster than light and couldnt perceive freiza's movements at perfect form.

Conclusion: frieza = lightspeed

deal with it

.

He knew Frieza was there, he just didn't know exactly where, because he was zipping around too fast. That's completely different from sensing an object on a linear trajectory from a far distance.

You people are forgetting one thing.
Sensing=/=seeing.
You can't disprove it with an explanation of how you can see a big moon fly pass at thousands of miles per hour yet not see a bug fly by when they aren't the same thing.

For all intents and purposes, they are. Detection works the same way, no matter the method, as long as it relies on the mechanism of detecting and processing incoming emissions from the target, whether they are light waves or ki waves.

To illustrate, consider the following thought experiment: You have an asteroid flying at you at 50% lightspeed. You fire a laser at the asteroid, and it bounces back, allowing you to detect the asteroid's presence, trajectory, and speed.

Now say you have an object buzzing around you at random movements at 25% lightspeed. Even if you shine lasers in all directions, if they hit the object and bounce back, the data you collect regarding the position of the object will be out of date by the time it reaches you. Unlike the asteroid, which is travelling in a predictable path, the object could have moved anywhere, so it cannot be tracked by this method, even though it is moving slower.

Understand?

EDIT: Additionally, it is disingenuous to claim that ki sense is not subject to parallax and effects of other such senses, and then turn around and claim that detecting a ki source moving FTL is more difficult than detecting a ki source moving STL, since if you can simply declare that a normal rule of physics and logic does not apply to ki sense, you have no right to claim that any others do.

 

[Sloth7d]

To illustrate, consider the following thought experiment: You have an asteroid flying at you at 50% lightspeed. You fire a laser at the asteroid, and it bounces back, allowing you to detect the asteroid's presence, trajectory, and speed.

Now say you have an object buzzing around you at random movements at 25% lightspeed. Even if you shine lasers in all directions, if they hit the object and bounce back, the data you collect regarding the position of the object will be out of date by the time it reaches you. Unlike the asteroid, which is travelling in a predictable path, the object could have moved anywhere, so it cannot be tracked by this method, even though it is moving slower.

Understand?

Yes and you just proved my point.
Freeza's powerlevel was like nothing they ever felt. It was the biggest powerlevel they had encountered at that point infact. Goku could feel it in his sleep it was so big. Yet he was moving so fast that they couldn't sense it? Yet while on a ship moving at light speeds they could?

 

[Endless Mike]

Yes and you just proved my point.
Freeza's powerlevel was like nothing they ever felt. It was the biggest powerlevel they had encountered at that point infact. Goku could feel it in his sleep it was so big. Yet he was moving so fast that they couldn't sense it? Yet while on a ship moving at light speeds they could?

Way to totally ignore my argument.

The ships were travelling at a fixed velocity, on a linear path, far away from Vegeta so he had a clear perspective on them.

Frieza was travelling erratically, on a random path, changing direction constantly, right next to Vegeta so he didn't have a good vantage point as he was surrounded. (It's easier to see a car driving on a road 100 meters away from you than a car zipping right past you one foot away, which will appear as a blur).

 

[Sloth7d]

Way to totally ignore my argument.

The ships were travelling at a fixed velocity, on a linear path, far away from Vegeta so he had a clear perspective on them.

Frieza was travelling erratically, on a random path, changing direction constantly, right next to Vegeta so he didn't have a good vantage point as he was surrounded. (It's easier to see a car driving on a road 100 meters away from you than a car zipping right past you one foot away, which will appear as a blur).

And you're still comparing sight to sound when they aren't the same thing.
Another thing you are doing is comparing the situations like Vegeta was sensing his ship instead of Freeza. He could infact sense Freeza while moving on a ship that exels light speeds, but couldn't sense Freeza moving around him. And I remind you that Freeza's energy level is like a meteor to them. Thats how big it is. The fact that they could sense it all the way on earth proves that.
Now, how fast does a meteor have to move before you can't see it. Faster than light I'd have to say.

 

[Endless Mike]

And you're still comparing sight to sound when they aren't the same thing.
Another thing you are doing is comparing the situations like Vegeta was sensing his ship instead of Freeza. He could infact sense Freeza while moving on a ship that exels light speeds, but couldn't sense Freeza moving around him. And I remind you that Freeza's energy level is like a meteor to them. Thats how big it is. The fact that they could sense it all the way on earth proves that.
Now, how fast does a meteor have to move before you can't see it. Faster than light I'd have to say.

A large meteor couldn't move superfast around you because there would be no room. Frieza is small enough to do so.

What part of this concept is so difficult?

Tracking an object on a linear path, a fixed trajectory, at a constant speed, from far away, is so much easier than tracking a rapidly moving object that is moving randomly and constantly changing direction right next to you.

Try this:

Wave your hand around in front of your face as fast as you can. It appears as a blur, you can't track it clearly.

Does that mean your hand is moving faster than a car, or an airplane, or a satellite, or a comet, or a star, or a planet, or any of the other things you can see with your eyes?

 

[Sloth7d]

A large meteor couldn't move superfast around you because there would be no room. Frieza is small enough to do so.

What part of this concept is so difficult?

Tracking an object on a linear path, a fixed trajectory, at a constant speed, from far away, is so much easier than tracking a rapidly moving object that is moving randomly and constantly changing direction right next to you.

Try this:

Wave your hand around in front of your face as fast as you can. It appears as a blur, you can't track it clearly.

Does that mean your hand is moving faster than a car, or an airplane, or a satellite, or a comet, or a star, or a planet, or any of the other things you can see with your eyes?

Even though your still confusing sight with sensing I'll level with you.

Freeza's power level could be compared to the size of a meteor.
Now do this.
Take a basketball and swirv it in front of your face. It's a blur but you can still see it. Now imagine how fast you'd have to wave it to not see it at all.


What part of this concept do you not understand?

Freeza's power could be sensed at lightspeeds but not sensed while moving on Namek.
What does this imply to you?

 

[Endless Mike]

Even though your still confusing sight with sensing I'll level with you.

Freeza's power level could be compared to the size of a meteor.
Now do this.
Take a basketball and swirv it in front of your face. It's a blur but you can still see it. Now imagine how fast you'd have to wave it to not see it at all.


What part of this concept do you not understand?

Freeza's power could be sensed at lightspeeds but not sensed while moving on Namek.
What does this imply to you?

Vegeta didn't say that it seemed that Frieza wasn't there at all, he just couldn't track him clearly.

Besides, I reviewed the relevant chapters, and it turns out you've been bull****ting this whole time.

Vegeta didn't sense the Ginyu's ki until only a minute or so before they actually arrived, when they were likely only in orbit coming in for a landing. He didn't sense them FTL in interstellar space.

I just spent a whole page arguing against an argument based on a premise that wasn't even true.

 

[Sloth7d]

Vegeta didn't say that it seemed that Frieza wasn't there at all, he just couldn't track him clearly.

Besides, I reviewed the relevant chapters, and it turns out you've been bull****ting this whole time.

Vegeta didn't sense the Ginyu's ki until only a minute or so before they actually arrived, when they were likely only in orbit coming in for a landing. He didn't sense them FTL in interstellar space.

I just spent a whole page arguing against an argument based on a premise that wasn't even true.

We were talking about Freeza's ki.
And he could sense it well before they orbitted the earth.

 

[Endless Mike]

We were talking about Freeza's ki.
And he could sense it well before they orbitted the earth.

So now you're not talking about the Ginyus' anymore?

Okay, I don't know how to explain this any more simply, so I'll draw a diagram.

 

[Sloth7d]

So now you're not talking about the Ginyus' anymore?

Okay, I don't know how to explain this any more simply, so I'll draw a diagram.

We were never talking about ginyu. We were talking about freeza.
And your hypothesis is still incorrect.
We're not talking about a small power level Vegeta coudn't sense.
We're talking about a huge power level Vegeta couldn't sense.
In diagram 3, you would have to enlarge that circle several times to even begin demonstrating. And since Freeza's power is that big, he'd have to be moving at light speeds for it not to be sensed.
But I can see you are unwilling to accept this and thats okay.
The entire world revolves around people having different opinions.

 

[Endless Mike]

We were never talking about ginyu. We were talking about freeza.
And your hypothesis is still incorrect.
We're not talking about a small power level Vegeta coudn't sense.

When did I claim we were?

We're talking about a huge power level Vegeta couldn't sense.

No, he could sense it, he just couldn't track it. If he couldn't sense it at all, that would simply make no sense, no matter how fast Frieza was going. If ki waves that can be sensed are emitted omnidirectionally, as seems to be the case, then the only way that Vegeta would be incapable of sensing Frieza at all is if Frieza was travelling directly away from Vegeta at a speed faster than the speed at which the ki waves propagate. Since we know they propagate at FTL speeds, that would put Frieza flying off into space, which obviously wasn't happening.

What was happening was that he knew Frieza's power level was there, he could sense it, he just couldn't track it or get a lock on it. It's like a fly buzzing all around you: You know it's there, you just can't see exactly where it is.

In diagram 3, you would have to enlarge that circle several times to even begin demonstrating. And since Freeza's power is that big, he'd have to be moving at light speeds for it not to be sensed.
But I can see you are unwilling to accept this and thats okay.
The entire world revolves around people having different opinions.

Okay, _ things.

First, there were only two diagrams.

Two, Frieza's size is not the issue, the strength of his ki is. A large ki source is more comparable, from a visual perspective, to a brighter object, not a larger one, since it can still be small and have a large presence.

Three, as I already explained, no matter how fast Frieza was going, there is absolutely no way that Vegeta couldn't sense him at all, since Frieza was staying in the same general area. Vegeta could sense him, he just couldn't track him.

Four, when you quote a post with a picture, you should just remove the picture in your quote, since it was already in the last post and it just takes up space.

 

[Dark-Kenshin]

Bad matchup.

Surfer just absorbs Gokus powers, and turns him into pudding.

 

[Gotenks]

Wow nice to see you again Dark-Kenshin.

 

[OMEGAVEGETTO]

Bad matchup.

Surfer just absorbs Gokus powers, and turns him into pudding.

goku is too strong to let that happen

 

[Sloth7d]

I hate Goku... I hate Superman... I hate silversurfer.... I hate the fact that the year 3000 will come and Goku vs random guy1 topics will still be on the internet.