Grant Morrison....W. T. F?

[The Batman]

Is Winnick's run included in your denouncement? I think that would be a tremendous mistake.

Honestly, I dont think i read a portion of it besides under the hood and as the crow flies...but what i did read was decent...for the most part, im talking about azzarello's run, and those bloody awful crossovers...

 

[The Batman]

I've been enjoying Morrison's run from the beginning, really. I don't quite get why it's confusing to so many people. There's things that didn't quite make sense during it (espicially during the R.I.P. arc), but I trusted in Morrison to tie it all back up in the end.

And before you ask--no, I haven't taken any of Morrison's interdemensional space drugs to get it. If I did, I wouldn't be sitting here typing on a superhero message board--I would be writing comics and making some money.

Oh, on some complaints given for Broken City--there are slight inconsistancies, but that is mostly because it was never meant to be in the main title. It was going to be a one-off graphic novel, but was split up when the DC editors realized there was a block missing after Hush. Even still, the only possible difference is the change from Killer Croc, and even then, I believe it was said that they found a way to change him back off-panel at the end of Hush.

I also don't get why there's talk of him "crossing the line." He never killed anyone--which, if you'll remember the movie, is his "one rule"--and stuff like putting a thug's hand near a turning car fan isn't really all that different from, say, threatening a thug with pouring acid on him (B:TAS "Clayface") or Batman throwing someone off a high building to pull him up when he decides to talk (Det. Comics #822).

Because people are bloody stupid and frankly, imo, have low standards for comics...thats why many fans seemingly hail dini's tec as the greatest batbook of the decade...lol

 

[Saint]

Honestly, I dont think i read a portion of it besides under the hood and as the crow flies...but what i did read was decent...for the most part, im talking about azzarello's run, and those bloody awful crossovers...

Yes, those crossovers were certainly bloody awful. I'd give Winnick's run another look. Good stuff.

 

[The Batman]

Yes, those crossovers were certainly bloody awful. I'd give Winnick's run another look. Good stuff.

I know about under the hood and as the crow flies....but what other bat stuff did he do?

 

[batpawn]

Because people are bloody stupid and frankly, imo, have low standards for comics...thats why many fans seemingly hail dini's tec as the greatest batbook of the decade...lol

which it certainly isn't. dini's run is ... good, but nowhere near as great as many people say it is. greg rucka's run on 'tec was in most parts memorable and superb. dini's stuff on the other hand is nice but could be much much better.

 

[Cain]

Rucka made himself a legend cause of his work on 'tec still the best stuff from the early 00's. I don't like Under the Hood or As the Crow Flies because the way Winnick writes he force feeds emotional moments to the fans on the constant and his dialogue seems hollow at times. He also doesn't have any imagination he doesn't know how to come up with a proper climax to anything.

He sets up events but the payoffs are lackluster, it just doesn't work for me. This is why many agree that some of his ideas are just completely bogus (bringing Jason back & the sorry ass explanation of the Emofanboy Prime punch ). He put me off Green Arrow for the same reason because he did that to his book. Ollie is my third favorite DC hero behind Batman & Superman so for me to not buy his monthly for years it has to be because I just don't feel the writing.

 

[Daredevil_2003]

Rucka made himself a legend cause of his work on 'tec still the best stuff from the early 00's. I don't like Under the Hood or As the Crow Flies because the way Winnick writes he force feeds emotional moments to the fans on the constant and his dialogue seems hollow at times. He also doesn't have any imagination he doesn't know how to come up with a proper climax to anything.

He sets up events but the payoffs are lackluster, it just doesn't work for me. This is why many agree that some of his ideas are just completely bogus (bringing Jason back & the sorry ass explanation of the Emofanboy Prime punch ). He put me off Green Arrow for the same reason because he did that to his book. Ollie is my third favorite DC hero behind Batman & Superman so for me to not buy his monthly for years it has to be because I just don't feel the writing.

I personally think Winick just plain sucks. I read some of his stuff on GL, sucked. Bad. Heard what he was doing in 'As The Crow Flies', the description alone was so terrible I didn't even bother picking it up.

Because people are bloody stupid and frankly, imo, have low standards for comics...thats why many fans seemingly hail dini's tec as the greatest batbook of the decade...lol

Why are people stupid for being confused about Morrison on Batman? He pulled so much **** out of left field it'd be hard not to get confused if you aren't chest deep into continuity of years long past.

Myself, I was never confused, I just think it sucked. I still think his run on X-Men is the best thing from that book in decades, but his 'vision' for Batman just failed miserably in almost every way. I was hooked on New X-Men from start to finish, Batman I gave up on around 670, I think...I cannot wait until this whole episode is done and over with. But I heard he's coming back this summer, so that might be a while.

And as for Dini, his isn't the best of the decade, but it's definitely the best of the last few years. Since Rucka and Brubaker left, at least. Paul Dini has shown you don't need freaky, overly complex plots and 'earth shattering' events (that'll just be retconned in a year or two anyway) in order to tell good Batman stories. He showed us that with TAS and he's done it again with 'Tec. It's solid gold compared to Morrison.

 

[Saint]

I know about under the hood and as the crow flies....but what other bat stuff did he do?

Under the Hood was the first part of a year-plus run he did on Batman. I can't give you exact issue numbers at this time, but the run lasted from Under the Hood to the last issue before the OYL jump (it also included the 25th Batman Annual). There may or may not have been interruptions in the run for the sake of bad crossovers; I don't recall.

bringing Jason back & the sorry ass explanation of the Emofanboy Prime punch

There was nothing wrong with bringing Jason back. In fact, under Winnick, it was a fine idea. The problem is that no other writer (save Geoff Johns) has handled the character competently since then. Sure, the explanation was silly, but, frankly, it just didn't seem important enough to fret over.

 

[CaptainClown]

I feel at home in this thread.

 

[margon]

I personally think Winick just plain sucks. I read some of his stuff on GL, sucked. Bad. Heard what he was doing in 'As The Crow Flies', the description alone was so terrible I didn't even bother picking it up.

Why are people stupid for being confused about Morrison on Batman? He pulled so much **** out of left field it'd be hard not to get confused if you aren't chest deep into continuity of years long past.

Myself, I was never confused, I just think it sucked. I still think his run on X-Men is the best thing from that book in decades, but his 'vision' for Batman just failed miserably in almost every way. I was hooked on New X-Men from start to finish, Batman I gave up on around 670, I think...I cannot wait until this whole episode is done and over with. But I heard he's coming back this summer, so that might be a while.

And as for Dini, his isn't the best of the decade, but it's definitely the best of the last few years. Since Rucka and Brubaker left, at least. Paul Dini has shown you don't need freaky, overly complex plots and 'earth shattering' events (that'll just be retconned in a year or two anyway) in order to tell good Batman stories. He showed us that with TAS and he's done it again with 'Tec. It's solid gold compared to Morrison.

Stop making excuses for people

Everything you need to know is right there on the pages. The stories reference continuity but don't rely on you knowing it firsthand. unless you can point to a specific example.

the problem is alot of readers just don't have the patience, literacy or attention span to put two-and-two together for themselves. they see the slightest bit of discord or ambiguity and it's OH NO NONSENSE HACK DOESNT MAKE SENSE. they also don't get the sense of humour.

what was it particularly about the vision of batman you didn't like though? just out of curiosity

 

[Daredevil_2003]

I cannot really tell you. It started out ok with the Batman and Son arc and then I was alright through most the arc with the Bane Batman guy, 663 was an interesting idea but boring as watching paint dry to read. That really goes for the whole run that I read, I was just bored with it. Not my cup of tea. He shook up the status quo with X-Men back in the day (lol like not even 10 years ago) and I loved it, byfar my favorite run on that title. That's why I was initially so excited to hear about him coming on. And very dissapointed when I actually read it, so I gave up on it. So there you go, something about the overall style didn't appeal to me, and I found the storytelling to be pretty dull.

I actually much preferred Frank Miller's All-Star Batman. I don't particularly care for the style of that one either, or the characterization, but at least it's more fun to read that Grant Morrison's Batman.

 

[Two-Face=Badass]

I'm sorry but I find the "You're not thinking or don't have good appreciation if you don't like it" argument very lacking. I consider myself quite smart and there are things in Morrison's run I still don't get. It's just a matter of how you interpret things, there is no "smarter", just different ways of seeing things. I for one despite looking back on it see a lot of good things in Morrison's run, but there are also things I thoroughly dislike, like the destruction of Talia's character, not moving Damian forward as a character, the old "new villain is the greatest threat ever" trick and so forth.

Loved LOVED the ninja Manbats though.

 

[CaptainClown]

I'm sorry but I find the "You're not thinking or don't have good appreciation if you don't like it" argument very lacking. I consider myself quite smart and there are things in Morrison's run I still don't get. It's just a matter of how you interpret things, there is no "smarter", just different ways of seeing things. I for one despite looking back on it see a lot of good things in Morrison's run, but there are also things I thoroughly dislike, like the destruction of Talia's character, not moving Damian forward as a character, the old "new villain is the greatest threat ever" trick and so forth.

Loved LOVED the ninja Manbats though.

I thought the prep-time emergency personality was interesting but for a more non serious batman story. I don't know I have a tendency to like writers like Bendis or Brubaker...(sigh)

 

[Two-Face=Badass]

I thought the prep-time emergency personality was interesting but for a more non serious batman story. I don't know I have a tendency to like writers like Bendis or Brubaker...(sigh)

The back up personality I thought was neat once I realised how it worked, when it came to Bats switching the two glasses when the priest blinked, that was a bit much for me.

I find you a bit of an anomaly though CC (I don't mean in an offensive way), you love gritty batbooks, don't like the Batfamily, yet seem to be enjoying The Brave and the Bold. It's interesting, also because I'm the exact opposite, I've only found Gotham Central and Man Who Laughs to be great gritty books I enjoy, and I love the Bat family more than the title character. A bit for everyone then right?

 

[TruerToTheCore]

I thought the prep-time emergency personality was interesting but for a more non serious batman story. I don't know I have a tendency to like writers like Bendis or Brubaker...(sigh)

THe ultimate prep-time Batman was Adam West. Remember that

 

[CaptainClown]

The back up personality I thought was neat once I realised how it worked, when it came to Bats switching the two glasses when the priest blinked, that was a bit much for me.

I find you a bit of an anomaly though CC (I don't mean in an offensive way), you love gritty batbooks, don't like the Batfamily, yet seem to be enjoying The Brave and the Bold. It's interesting, also because I'm the exact opposite, I've only found Gotham Central and Man Who Laughs to be great gritty books I enjoy, and I love the Bat family more than the title character. A bit for everyone then right?

I hate the Bat family because they have always come off as nothing more then a nuisance in the whole scheme of things. Robin I am tolerating but it all depends on the rendition of Robin.

Gritty Batman books are where I think this character thrieves mainly because I think his chief selling point is "this ****ers human and he is doling out the harshness" His rogue gallery is colorful yet plausible to a degree and when you divvy it up are just aspects of the mind and its mental disorders. Batman I see is just like his rogue gallery, bat **** bonkers (pun intended) and just so happens to be a good guy. It is because of this I like reading stories about BATMAN, not Azreal, Huntress, nightwing, batwoman, batgirl, bat boy, bat mite, bat men blah blah blah. All of them are not stories I want to read about. Also I feel that there is a lot of untapped potential that Batman hasn't quite covered.

Now as for Brave and the Bold, I LOVE this show and the same with Batman and Robin All-star simply because they are small parts in a greater whole. They don't threaten the batman I like and are a nice refreshing change to show the versitility of the character rather then Wolverine who can not be seen spraying shark repelent on a shark or doing bat clint eastwood impressions.

THe ultimate prep-time Batman was Adam West. Remember that

so true, Adam West > Morrison in prep-time... It is all a manner of time before Adam springs his trap.

 

[The Batman]

I'm sorry but I find the "You're not thinking or don't have good appreciation if you don't like it" argument very lacking. I consider myself quite smart and there are things in Morrison's run I still don't get. It's just a matter of how you interpret things, there is no "smarter", just different ways of seeing things. I for one despite looking back on it see a lot of good things in Morrison's run, but there are also things I thoroughly dislike, like the destruction of Talia's character, not moving Damian forward as a character, the old "new villain is the greatest threat ever" trick and so forth.

Loved LOVED the ninja Manbats though.

It's not lacking...its true...most people who complain about morrison lack the intelligence and diligence to actually read a comic instead of having things spelled out for them. What you just listed are actual reasons for not liking morrison. Not liking morrison because of continuity or pacing problems that arent really there is ******ed. Morrison's stories are not confusing in the least

 

[Alastor]

I agree, if you have problems with aspects of Morrison's work like pacing or the stories themselves I can understand. But if you find it confusing....I dont know. Reread it or something.


I loved the Ninja Manbats, an idea I'm surprised hasnt be exploited yet. Bruce having a biological son, one trained by his enemies is awesome! Damien has potential, and I see this fitting with DC's feel of legacy and so forth. And Batman's fate in Final Crisis was great. I mean,

Spoiler

Bruce in pre-agricultural society?! Leading armies of primitive humans against Vandal Savage! Awesome!

Again, tons of story potential, and while this may not be typical "gritty Batman" "goddamn" bleak as hell Batman, I'm excited for something different.

 

[QuiteFrankly]

I read Batman R.I.P. and Final Crisis. I understood everything and re-reading the stories made me enjoy them even more. I just can't agree with this "Morrison's writing is incomprehensible" stuff...it simply isn't true. Sure, his writing isn't exactly like....Geoff John's for example, but that doesn't make it bad. It's just different.


I'm not going to say that people are stupid for not understanding what makes Grant a great writer...if you don't like his stuff, that's fine, but don't resort to hate. (Not saying that all of you do, but there are some people who seem to live off bashing Morrison)


I'll be happy to come back to discuss Morrison in more depth, but I'm on a tight schedule and I have to be going now.

Cya,
FQ

PS: I've been reading the boards ever since Spider-Man 2 was in the works, but didn't register until now for various reasons...so don't call me n00b or anything, my opinions are just as valid as yours. Peace

 

[Daredevil_2003]

^ noob

 

[Nepenthes]

Well I gave up 3 issues into RIP but I've been following Morrison since Batman and Son. I decided it wasn't worth shelling out money over. My prejudice has been frustratingly set in stone and it's not likely to change. Listen, I don't flame Morrison or go into the RIP threads bashing him to bits. A passing remark about how I prefer Dini in the Detective threads, but I'm just expressing my view point. They're hardly harmful passing remarks. I'm a conservative Bat-fan, though I feel there are good "out-there" stories and bad "safe" stories as well. In my opinion, Dini's doing good well-told "safe" stories and Morrison's doing a bad out-there story. I don't shove it down anyone's throat. In fact, I just ignored RIP after I stopped following it. No biggie.

As for the humping continuity though--he did. Infinite Crisis pretty much wiped the Silver Age and started fresh with Batman Year One (in my eyes, the perfect way). Morrison brought all that craziness back in a way that wouldn't fit in the current continuity. So yes, it's fact--he screwed continuity and that's not subjective at all.



I'm not hating on it. I hate it, but I'm not hating on it, if it makes sense. Aside from some passing remarks I've been quietly passive on RIP. I've just ignored it and kept on following the other Batman titles. I frankly don't care about it, and as a consumer I'm entitled to ignore arcs I don't care about. It's just not my type of story and it's a story I don't like like anyway. I cannot...will not allow myself to like this arc /Loeb (who I also cannot and will not allow myself to like either).

I'm a highly biased poster, but I’m not that outspoken. I make my views heard but I’m hardly hating on RIP. And by the way, it’s been nice arguing back and forth with you as you seem pretty respectful and well composed unlike a bunch of other crazy ****ers here.

Interesting. How do you feel about the Batman & Robin run so far?

 

[Cobblepot]

I have to agree reading Morrison is getting tedious and a drag lately. There's just too much to comprehend.
Although I can't wait for the Return Of Bruce Wayne.

 

[Two-Face=Badass]

Y'know, I was enjoying Morrison's writing, but seeing the previews where Damian is suddenly running Wayne Enterprises at 10 years old, intimidating all the board and apparently being smarter than all of them as well is making me realise just how much I hate how Morrison writes Damian. Damian in the other books for me has been fine as both a source of humour and flawed character but he comes across to me like Morrison's pet character, a "Gary Stu".

 

[Drz]

Y'know, I was enjoying Morrison's writing, but seeing the previews where Damian is suddenly running Wayne Enterprises at 10 years old, intimidating all the board and apparently being smarter than all of them as well is making me realise just how much I hate how Morrison writes Damian. Damian in the other books for me has been fine as both a source of humour and flawed character but he comes across to me like Morrison's pet character, a "Gary Stu".

He might be a Child progidy when it comes to math, but in each arc he has gotten his ass-kicked and saved by Dick Grayson.

 

[Two-Face=Badass]

He might be a Child progidy when it comes to math, but in each arc he has gotten his ass-kicked and saved by Dick Grayson.

Yeah but this is a guy who is over ten years older than him. Damian exhibits abilities that are not only ludicrous even by comic standards but has consistently not been called by anyone significantly, can now apparently run Wayne Enterprises, fix vehicle issues that even Bruce couldn't and is most certainly Morrison's favourite character to write by this point.