HBO's Game of Thrones - - - - - Part 14

[Maximus One]

I've watched the scene about a dozen times now. Even D&D themselves said that by the end of the scene it's consensual. I really don't understand how anybody can keep up the argument after it coming straight from the horse's mouth like that. I guess people choose to take away from it what they will. I guess I see rape being a lot more violent and about power and domination. This was a moment of passion that she at first refused due to being right next to her dead son but due to her passion ended up giving in. That just doesn't sound like rape to me.

 

[Infinity9999x]

I've watched the scene about a dozen times now. Even D&D themselves said that by the end of the scene it's consensual. I really don't understand how anybody can keep up the argument after it coming straight from the horse's mouth like that. I guess people choose to take away from it what they will. I guess I see rape being a lot more violent and about power and domination. This was a moment of passion that she at first refused due to being right next to her dead son but due to her passion ended up giving in. That just doesn't sound like rape to me.

Not to go off subject on this, but the reason I'm a bit more passionate on this subject is that I've been trained as an advocate and I spent over 40 hours learning about sexual assault, domestic violence, and stalking. I got what they were going for in this scene, but it didn't come off that way in their execution.

Also, the reason I highlighted your bolded part is because this way of thinking is precisely why many survivors aren't believed when they tell their stories to others. You are right that rape is about power and control, however, very few survivors show any signs of injury. This is because many people in this situation simply shut down. They go into shock and barely put up any resistance, and it's not their fault, as humans we're wired that way. Many people faced with intense trauma of this kind shut down. Rape is an incredibly violent act, but not necessarily in the way you would think it would be.

 

[marcvader]

Not to go off subject on this, but the reason I'm a bit more passionate on this subject is that I've been trained as an advocate and I spent over 40 hours learning about sexual assault, domestic violence, and stalking. I got what they were going for in this scene, but it didn't come off that way in their execution.

Apparently it did work for many.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

In the context of how it happened in the show, it looked like rape. Had they done the resisting and then had the moment of her going "okay," then I wouldn't have minded it. But they didn't. I like the "this is wrong" comment, both for where they are and what they're doing, but the fact that she never gave him the go ahead changed the scene in the show from the scene in the book greatly.

They did it, just non-verbally. I just watched the scene again to make sure, and yep. She starts making out with him while he is getting himself ready. She resist again a bit after, but it is halfhearted at best. She is shagging him as much as he is shagging her.

 

[Iceman]

What were the other main events/interactions in the episode?

 

[DarthSkywalker]

What were the other main events/interactions in the episode?

- Sansa escaping.
- Tywin teaching Tommen.
- Tyrion and Pod discussing his situation and Pod's safety in his jail cell.
- Jon and the Nights Watch finding two survivors of the mutiny.
- Tywin and Oberyn discussing the Mountain and Tyrion's upcoming trial.
- Dany and her champion knocking on the door of Meeren.
- Arya and Sandor run into a family on the road.
- Sam attempting to protect Gilly by getting her away from Castle Black.
- Davos and Stannis discussing how to gather an army.
- Davos getting his lessons from Shireen.
- A Wildling attack.

 

[Maximus One]

Not to go off subject on this, but the reason I'm a bit more passionate on this subject is that I've been trained as an advocate and I spent over 40 hours learning about sexual assault, domestic violence, and stalking. I got what they were going for in this scene, but it didn't come off that way in their execution.

Also, the reason I highlighted your bolded part is because this way of thinking is precisely why many survivors aren't believed when they tell their stories to others. You are right that rape is about power and control, however, very few survivors show any signs of injury. This is because many people in this situation simply shut down. They go into shock and barely put up any resistance, and it's not their fault, as humans we're wired that way. Many people faced with intense trauma of this kind shut down. Rape is an incredibly violent act, but not necessarily in the way you would think it would be.

I totally understand but in this instance she doesn't shut down and just go along with it. She consents and starts going at him just as hard as he's goin at her.

 

[Spidey-Bat]

Just like everything else in this show they have changed some things.

Coldhands rides a horse in the tv show and he is a white walker in the show. He's been shown three times now. Once in one of the trailers. His horse was shown in Bran's vision, and his face has been glimpsed quickly.

You're assuming it's Coldhands but there's no evidence to support this. In fact, there's only evidence that the character was cut entirely.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

You're assuming it's Coldhands but there's no evidence to support this. In fact, there's only evidence that the character was cut entirely.

Well, one could interpret those quotes as Sam never gets to meet Coldhands.

 

[Spidey-Bat]

We pick up with Bran again next week, so we'll find out. My point is that there's literally nothing in any of Bran's visions that implies Coldhands. Making him a white walker instead of a wight would just confuse viewers even more.

 

[DorkyFresh]

I totally understand but in this instance she doesn't shut down and just go along with it. She consents and starts going at him just as hard as he's goin at her.

I think you should watch the scene again. Sure at the end of the scene she's letting Jamie take her but she's FAR from "going at him just as hard".

Just my 2 cents about the Jamie and Cersei scene. I haven't read the books so I only judge the show by what's presented through my screen. I understood what they were trying to do because they set the scene up well, but there was a little too much resistance by Cersei for me not to say that it was borderline rape. Yes, she kissed him back...but that's about it. She was just trying to see if that would do anything, but by the end of the scene she kept saying "It's not right" and he repeats "I don't care!" while she's crying and struggling. She's not holding him, she's not showing pleasure. She's pulling on the cloth from Joffrey's deathbed.

I understand that it was supposed to be a morbid scene where extreme emotions bleed into each other. The intent was to show that they're trying to drown their sorrows in their love for each other.....but that's not how the scene ended. What I saw was Jamie being frustrated with his lack of love from Cersei lately, so he forces himself upon her. She tries to enjoy it, but can't get over her loss/realizes they're right next to their dead son and tries to convince him to stop while he keeps going. The only reason I wouldn't call it full fledged rape is because she didn't do more to stop him...but by definition that rape is a forced entry, then the scene depicts just that.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

That scene was not about drowning sorrows. I didn't get that vibe at all.

 

[Infinity9999x]

I think you should watch the scene again. Sure at the end of the scene she's letting Jamie take her but she's FAR from "going at him just as hard".

Just my 2 cents about the Jamie and Cersei scene. I haven't read the books so I only judge the show by what's presented through my screen. I understood what they were trying to do because they set the scene up well, but there was a little too much resistance by Cersei for me not to say that it was borderline rape. Yes, she kissed him back...but that's about it. She was just trying to see if that would do anything, but by the end of the scene she kept saying "It's not right" and he repeats "I don't care!" while she's crying and struggling. She's not holding him, she's not showing pleasure. She's pulling on the cloth from Joffrey's deathbed.

I understand that it was supposed to be a morbid scene where extreme emotions bleed into each other. The intent was to show that they're trying to drown their sorrows in their love for each other.....but that's not how the scene ended. What I saw was Jamie being frustrated with his lack of love from Cersei lately, so he forces himself upon her. She tries to enjoy it, but can't get over her loss/realizes they're right next to their dead son and tries to convince him to stop while he keeps going. The only reason I wouldn't call it full fledged rape is because she didn't do more to stop him...but by definition that rape is a forced entry, then the scene depicts just that.

This is what I got out of it. I understood what they were trying to go for, but it just didn't come across that way. All they would have needed to do would be to add a quick line like the book did showing she was okay with it, or even just have a moment where she stops and then starts going at him. Something more that showed it was more consensual.

Also, my main problem with it is that Jamie was never a character that was shown to force himself on her in that way, and that's my main problem with it.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

This is what I got out of it. I understood what they were trying to go for, but it just didn't come across that way. All they would have needed to do would be to add a quick line like the book did showing she was okay with it, or even just have a moment where she stops and then starts going at him. Something more that showed it was more consensual.

Also, my main problem with it is that Jamie was never a character that was shown to force himself on her in that way, and that's my main problem with it.

Jaime at this point imo, is realizing he doesn't need Cersei to breathe. This is almost a test for himself.

 

[Iceman]

- Sansa escaping.
- Tywin teaching Tommen.
- Tyrion and Pod discussing his situation and Pod's safety in his jail cell.
- Jon and the Nights Watch finding two survivors of the mutiny.
- Tywin and Oberyn discussing the Mountain and Tyrion's upcoming trial.
- Dany and her champion knocking on the door of Meeren.
- Arya and Sandor run into a family on the road.
- Sam attempting to protect Gilly by getting her away from Castle Black.
- Davos and Stannis discussing how to gather an army.
- Davos getting his lessons from Shireen.
- A Wildling attack.

Excellent, thanks for that

How does Sansa escape? Who with?
Who is Dany's champion?
Can't wait for Tywin's instructions. Actually would have preferred it if he was giving it to little kid Tommen from previous seasons.
I love Shireen. Is she much of a character in future books?

 

[DarthSkywalker]

Excellent, thanks for that

How does Sansa escape? Who with?
Who is Dany's champion?
Can't wait for Tywin's instructions. Actually would have preferred it if he was giving it to little kid Tommen from previous seasons.
I love Shireen. Is she much of a character in future books?

They have seemingly expanded Shireen's character, which I am very grateful for. Like you, I love her.

Sansa is running away with the man who gave her the necklace. He is working for Littlefinger and Daario is Dany's Champion.

 

[DorkyFresh]

That scene was not about drowning sorrows. I didn't get that vibe at all.

The scene is different things to different people. Art is all about interpretation. Whatever you got out of it is uniquely your point of view. And maybe that scene wasn't about drowning sorrows (my poor choice of words since it usually means drinking) but Jamie was certainly trying to DISTRACT her (as well as maybe himself) from their sorrows to an extent.

 

[Iceman]

They have seemingly expanded Shireen's character, which I am very grateful for. Like you, I love her.

Sansa is running away with the man who gave her the necklace. He is working for Littlefinger and Daario is Dany's Champion.

Good.

Oh Dontos,the guy who's always drunk lol. Didn't expect him to be more than a joke character t:

Oh right, thought you might have meant someone new.

Thanks.

 

[Infinity9999x]

Jaime at this point imo, is realizing he doesn't need Cersei to breathe. This is almost a test for himself.

I get that, and in the fourth book he goes through this process.

But at no point do I see this process involving him forcing himself on her. It's just not an act I saw the character doing to his sister, even at his worst.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

The scene is different things to different people. Art is all about interpretation. Whatever you got out of it is uniquely your point of view. And maybe that scene wasn't about drowning sorrows (my poor choice of words since it usually means drinking) but Jamie was certainly trying to DISTRACT her (as well as maybe himself) from their sorrows to an extent.

Yep, all about interpretation. I felt like Jaime wasn't much thinking bout Cersei's needs in the moment. Part of it could be him reverting to past behavior to comfort her, but I didn't quite get that. I feel like Jaime was looking for what they use to have, too find his love, and we will find out soon he can't. Jaime is too different at this point. This is Jaime falling out of love with Cersei imo.

I get that, and in the fourth book he goes through this process.

But at no point do I see this process involving him forcing himself on her. It's just not an act I saw the character doing to his sister, even at his worst.

Sex is how Cersei controls Jaime. It is how he has learned to express his love for her. Their children, and Cersei's love for them is a testament to this. Which is why in an attempt to find that love again, Jaime wants to have sex.

 

[Kane52630]

I'm glad I wasn't the only one who caught this lol

 

[DarthSkywalker]

I'm glad I wasn't the only one who caught this lol

Do you think we are going to get the [BLACKOUT]kiss[/BLACKOUT], just at a different point? Also,

Spoiler

Also, I am starting to wonder about the banishment. I am starting to get the feeling they may not do it, which would suck imo.

 

[Hush]

The Jaime/Cersei relationship is far more nuanced. I didn't see it as rape.

Right, Cersei is kind of a girl who likes it rough. That's the way I see it in the books and show.

 

[Ramsay Snow]

oblem with it is that Jamie was never a character that was shown to force himself on her in that way, and that's my main problem with it.

I could be wrong here, but in Season 1, Jaime forced his arms around her and Cersei didn't want it. But Jaime comforted her with assurance that he will kill for her. And then Cersei let him grope her and stuff.

It's nothing like this. Nothing. But I couldn't help but get reminded of that scene in Season 1.

 

[Hush]

I could be wrong here, but in Season 1, Jaime forced his arms around her and Cersei didn't want it. But Jaime comforted her with assurance that he will kill for her. And then Cersei let him grope her and stuff.

It's nothing like this. Nothing. But I couldn't help but get reminded of that scene in Season 1.

That scene came to my mind as well. There relationship is ****ed up in so many ways its not hard to think that what happened last night was a HUGE deviation from what is normal in their relationship.