His webslinging still looks off

[pointman]

Just before spidey throws the pizzas the cg is rubbish. Its really distracting and irritating.

 

[Web Slinging]

And I disagree. If that's the aim of the animation, to make it as realistic as possible, it WON'T break that rule unless it's for some special reason. Even then we'd detect something was wacky.

Dude, we have an extremely keen sense of what looks real (or natural) and what seems extraordinary. That's indisputable.

Why is Jackie Chan even a star? Because he seems to somehow break boundaries with his phycial abilities honed over a lifetime of training.

I've had the thought that if they don't sign Tobey for the next few films they can always save money on CGI and hire Tony Jaa

 

[comic_guy04]

the web swinging looks like it feels in this spider-man flash game I found. Sorry if this has been posted somwhere but I think its goes with this thread.http://www.gamezhero.com/online-games/sports-games/spidermancityraid-arcadegame.html

 

[The Kid]

I've had the thought that if they don't sign Tobey for the next few films they can always save money on CGI and hire Tony Jaa

yeah, that'd be just perfect if they hired him to come in and handle some parts where they need EXTREME acrobatic skills. I'd love to see more realistic examples of Spidey's incredible agility like Jaa displays in his films. His stuff has impressed me more than ANYTHING done by spidey in both films. Cartoon spidey flipping through stuff sucks. I won't lie. I'd prefer a real actor doing some great stunts to the cartoon.

Well I was looking at this and I figure the first shot looks off for a very simple reason. Yesh the flag looks cgi for sure, but forget that. Spidey doesn't look where he's landing, not once. That's inhuman and I know spidey's spidey, but I think anyway that instinctively we usually look at where we're going especially from such a great leap.

The swing, not that bad. But like someone said earlier it looks like some very tight editing which gives off this feeling to me that spidey's momentum is a unnatural. Maybe he's being pushed or pulled by some other force etc. Maybe it's just the camera angle.

Going back to the first image, I think one of the signs that something is purely cgi in a scene is that it doesn't really interact with the environment as a real life actor or stunt guy would. It doesn't look where it's going. It doesn't really show much impact or I guess it's called recoil. It seems to be moving by some unknown forces that don't exist in the real world. Essentially it's a video game character like mario... and the problem with this is that it kills the suspense during a scene when you know you're just watching two cartoons instead of two real flesh and blood characters. It's not that it's a cartoon per se, but because the FX are so obvious that the illusion is broken wide open and the audience doesn't... well let's say the little wizard behind the curtain is revealed.

I look at the cartoon ninja turtles trailer with the fake cartoon turtles jumping across rooftops and I just think it looks like a very cool cgi cartoon, nothing more. I'm not as impressed as I would be if they accomplished similar things with live actors.

 

[Ryudoz]

It looks like in the top picture, that right as Spidey is going to land it seems as though his momentum comes to an almost dead stop, as if he slows down dramatically before he lands. That's my biggest problem with it. Not that it's obviously 100% CG with that flag in the background (totally unecessary I think) and it really gives you the feeling that the scene seriously needs tweaking--which would be nice considering they still have time, but if they've got other priorities then oh well--and that would create a much better effect.

Cheers.

 

[Web Slinging]

yeah, that'd be just perfect if they hired him to come in and handle some parts where they need EXTREME acrobatic skills. I'd love to see more realistic examples of Spidey's incredible agility like Jaa displays in his films. His stuff has impressed me more than ANYTHING done by spidey in both films. Cartoon spidey flipping through stuff sucks. I won't lie. I'd prefer a real actor doing some great stunts to the cartoon.



Well I was looking at this and I figure the first shot looks off for a very simple reason. Yesh the flag looks cgi for sure, but forget that. Spidey doesn't look where he's landing, not once. That's inhuman and I know spidey's spidey, but I think anyway that instinctively we usually look at where we're going especially from such a great leap.

The swing, not that bad. But like someone said earlier it looks like some very tight editing which gives off this feeling to me that spidey's momentum is a unnatural. Maybe he's being pushed or pulled by some other force etc. Maybe it's just the camera angle.

Going back to the first image, I think one of the dead giveaways that something is purely cgi in a scene is that it doesn't really interact with the environment as a real life actor or stunt guy would. It doesn't look where it's going. It doesn't really show much impact or I guess it's called recoil. It seems to be moving by some unknown forces that don't exist in the real world. Essentially it's a video game character like mario... and the problem with this is that it kills the suspense during a scene when you know you're just watching two cartoons instead of two real flesh and blood characters. It's not that it's a cartoon per se, but because the FX are so obvious that the illusion is broken wide open and the audience doesn't... well let's say the little wizard behind the curtain is revealed.

I look at the cartoon ninja turtles trailer with the fake cartoon turtles jumping across rooftops and I just think it looks like a very cool cgi cartoon, nothing more. I'm not as impressed as I would be if they accomplished similar things with live actors.

Absolutely. Something as simple as a chase scene using Jaa instead of CGI could look outstanding. Jumping over cars and through little spaces is his specialty and those are all things that they could have Spidey doing in a scene too. Not to mention he could bring some cool fight scene experience too, though we wouldn't want him looking too martial-artsy when he's beating the crap out of someone

Also, I remember seeing a video online once of these guys doing all sorts of long jumps and acrobatics off rooftops and everything, with no equipment, just pure stunts. It screamed Spider-Man to me. There's people out there who can definitely do it, so why not use them?

Looking at that second picture you can definitely see the change in motion as he's swinging. His full momentum is going sideways as he makes a turn and all of a sudden he's flying upward. Still manages to look pretty damn sweet though.

 

[DACrowe]

Is there anything you like in the movie?

 

[Web Slinging]

Is there anything you like in the movie?

Who are you asking?

Personally I love both movies, I was just talking out loud.

 

[SLYspyder]

the mtv cartoon got it right with the wall crawling. they had him chasing after speeding vehicles while crawling on the side of a building and even jumping from building to building. that's what i want to see in the movie.

I think the animators have the swinging right for the most part. I thought the best CGI ever for him swinging was the first sequence in Sm2. it was perfect.

i don't think the camera should follow him so closely when he's swinging. they should have more of a regular human POV sometimes, like the scene after the world unity festival in SM1 after he saved MJ and is swinging around the corner with people looking up at them, now THAT was amazing. it felt like it really could happen. they need to have more shots like that. another example would be an office in a building with lots of windows. imagine, while you're working, just barely seeing out the corner of your eye a man just swing by with such speed.

 

[Number17]

This is a real minor complaint.

It's hard for me to understand hardcore fanbase and I'm a hardcore fan.

It blows my mind.

 

[HerosOnFilm]

.

i don't think the camera should follow him so closely when he's swinging. they should have more of a regular human POV sometimes, like the scene after the world unity festival in SM1 after he saved MJ and is swinging around the corner with people looking up at them, now THAT was amazing. it felt like it really could happen. they need to have more shots like that. .

Great comment. I agree with having more POV shots. Same thing when he went to save the baby from the burning building.

 

[chaseter]

Great comment. I agree with having more POV shots. Same thing when he went to save the baby from the burning building.

I too agree. Realism is better than CGI almost in every situation. I wish they had more POV shots as well. Especially that scene in SM2 when Doc Ock stole MJ from the coffee shop...that CGI was crap.

 

[DarkArachknight]

This is a real minor complaint.

It's hard for me to understand hardcore fanbase and I'm a hardcore fan.

It blows my mind.

it is an insanely minor complaint. the web swinging effects look amazing.

 

[NewYorkSpider]

I think the webslinging is fine. I've never had a problem with it. Of course i have never really paid attention to it.

 

[dark_b]

70% still dont know about what this thread is about.

 

[November Rain]

This is a real minor complaint.

It's hard for me to understand hardcore fanbase and I'm a hardcore fan.

It blows my mind.

you remember spidey's swinging in the sixties cartoon where it was a long distant shot and he was sticking onto nothing and just swinging forever, they repeated that shot numerous times and it showed up in most episodes (it's also in the beginning sequence).

Back in the day that was an amazing shot that brought the comics to life,

but look at how the animation (not necessarily the quality of animation) of spidey has come through to the modern day when we last saw him in the MTV cartoons. not only is he swinging in multiple directions but he's also pulling off some totally crazy ****.

that extra crap isn't necessary but it's visually more pleasing.

I see the swinging at the most part to be similar to that 60s cartoon and all i'm saying is while settle for that when we can have a movie equivalent of MTV agility.

It's takes nothing more than changing some of the animation to make it look that more spectacular.

another analogy would be when straight line webbing was replaced by spaghetti webbing in the comics in the comics. mild tweaking that just enhances the visual aspects of the story.

 

[mikebatho]

i'm not necessarily talking about the high bar, i'm also taking the rings into consideration but mostly i'm talking about circus performers on the flying trapeze as points of example.

although yeah, what spidey is doing is on a larger scale, his body is also highly equipped to handle it so it brings it all into a relative scale or 'pound-for-pound agility' so to speak.

nothing is a necessity, spidey's two footed landings are alwas usually preceeded by a high looping arc which is supposed to slow down his momentum and bring him to an ice halt, he did this twice in the first film, once just before reaching the goblin on the bridge and another one at the end swing sequence when he's going for altitude as well as slowing down his speed (loops the loop on the crane).

I konw spidey isn't competing but he should still be that good, that's what makes him a wonder. He doesn't work out but he's still ripped to ****, it's a similar scenario.

as for his legs, they hardly help his swinging at all, he rarely goes into a tucked in ball shape at the bottom of his swings which is more efficient than letting them just do as they wish. I don't mind if he puts flare into his swinging with his legs, doing crazy poses or what not, that' shows he's above the rest of us but letting them dangle behind him like they are lead weights is just poor show. can you imagine superman flying all over the place with his legs dangling behind him, he remains forever streamline during flight, his legs don't go lazy. Imagine a Namor or aquaman water equivalent where their swimming (although faster than a human beings) looks like someone is drowning with style.

you make a point, gymnast force themselves but to spidey this should be as natural as walking, even more so. I understand it's simply a mode of transport but to a veiwer (or at least me), it's not completely aestetically pleasing.

spidey's swinging is one thing that the mtv series manage to nail, he always looked graceful and at ease, without a mask on, i always imagine tobey maguire's face all squished up like he's got constipation while spidey swings 'loosely'

Athletes & Gymnasts aren't performing naturally. They're adhering to a discipline - hanging, swinging & landing in a certain, time perfected, point-awarded fashion.

You can't say that Spider-Man isn't acting instinctively or naturally, when the above mentioned athletes are performing in a way thats far from natural. He's just getting from A to B....

Perhaps if someone in the fictional NY where the films are set was to bring up these points to Spidey, he might (or not) choose to work on his moves, but until then he's just doing what comes naturally.

As for being consistent, that could be down to anything from slackness on the animators/director, to something we're just reading too much into.

Don't forget that in the latter scenes of part two, he'd been on a time-out & wouldn't have had full confidence in himself.....

 

[November Rain]

But the obvious difference between the flagpole landing and the one you posted first from Spidey 3 is that with the flagpole, it's a vertical surface which he naturally would land on with both hands and feet, versus the horizontal landing from Spidey 3.

The thing is, that you seem to continually compare human body mechanics to Spidey's superhuman ones, and people swinging on ropes or gymnastic bars to Spidey's elastic webline at great altitudes. You just can't compare the two. The very fact that they can't even bluescreen the world's best acrobats for Spidey tells you that they're going for something humans can't duplicate (But that's another debate).

And another point that you seem to miss is that Spidey maintaining the form you're mentioning would be visually boring. Any CG animator will tell you that in order to sell a stunt, you HAVE TO EXAGGERATE. Or the movement looks dead.

But more than that, they're expressing Spidey's POWER. He isn't just some daintly little aerial balletist. He's a superhero. He's not just graceful. He's dangerous. And also- this is freedom for Peter. he's having fun. He's letting loose. Gymnasts are wound so tight that they (especially the girls) are shattered if their foot isn't quite in position. Spidey isn't bound by such constraints.

As for the Superman comparison, again, it can't happen. Supes travels in an altogether different way. Supes flies head first, while Spidey generates his momentum by kicking his feet (which is necessary). But more than anything else- Spidey is clearly subject to gravity. Superman DEFIES GRAVITY. He's not leaping as the intro to the 50's show says. He's actually floating on air. He could walk on air if he so chose. This is how in mid-flight he can increase his speed. So his landings have nothing to do with the gravity that Spidey's does.

Dragon, dragon dragon....

if you've read all my posts you would have realised i've noted the difference between a flat and vertical landing numerous times already.

Every cgi horizontal landing i can recall has been a bad one. Look at the spidey 3 trailer and teaser when spidey falls from the top of a building down (just before brock starts taking pics of him), a human is used and the way he naturally lands is to bend his knees more and lower his centre of gravity to take the impact

now this is a real human landing from a high position, granted it's a vertical drop but look how low he goes to get the impact and the shape his body naturally takes. heck he could even drop his hands and go into a spider pose, that's all i'm asking for on the landings but the cgi animators make it hard to do because you have so many scenes with spidey lunging leg first into everything, i think he should do faster rotations in the air so he can see where he's going more and it gives him a better chance of landing gracefully.

there is no act in any spidey film that has been shot that i don't believe could be physically duplilcated on a smaller scale by a top gymnast or flying trapeze artist, he hasn't contorted his body in any form or performed anything that i thought was out of the blue. the majority of the people are saying they are going for realism but you are the first to think that his movement are superhuman which i find bizzare, if you'd like to locate and post some of these scenes you've seen i'd be highly interested.

boring? that's kinda lame, how does landing like a spider or keeping a streamline shape ever come across as boring. If anything his swinging so far compared to comics and cartoons has been extrememly tame, why would adding spice make it boring?


Spidey is one of the most graceful superheroes out there proportionate speed, strength and agility of a spider, ring any bells? where has this idea that spidey is a brute come from, his every move should be a thing of beauty. I don't compute your danger egde coming from him looking (and maybe solely from my eyes) sloppy. Kicking up with your legs together generates more speed than apart, it's not rocket science it's simply momentum theory, greater combined mass, greated momentum with less drag (and greater speed and greater height).

I would equate spidey to be an extreme sports fanatic, even though he's cutting loose the pleasure he gets is from landing big moves and what not, the pleasure and fun comes from the perfection of hitting big moves. So you then think, except for some aerials and some loops, where are the big moves which you would expect to see from someone having fun? you know, the twirls, the big kicks, the fun spins? They've yet to be seen in bulk, a couple here and there. Saying this i feel he looks like he's having the most fun at the end of the first film (even though he lets out a woohoo in the second) so that's the one i have the least problems with. Spidey's got an analytical mind, he's a scientist and at heart i believe would ideally be a perfectionist.

I know in the movies they have taken away his arrogance by changing his motivation to stop his uncle's killer and to also take the wisecracks as well as his great abilities as an inventor but i still think there is a bit of that left in him, especially if he is still sellin pics of himself to the bugle. and if his rent is based on a good pic then he would have built in sense to try and always look good while webslinging sine he would be used to taking pictures of himself in action, just like how a model will always try and look their best before leaving their house because they never know if others will be watching, it becomes second nature, or don't you think?


the superman comparison is perfect because he is able to fly in and direction or rotation as he desires BUT BUT BUT BUT BUT, chooses to fly head first because guess what? IT's the best form through the air and while he's doing that. good lord, look at his legs, they are together.

look at neo's leg's during the matrix they are together too.

alright circus performers don't have to be as rigid as gymnasts here so why do they also keep their form while in the air? They are dealing with a life and death situation while flying through a trapeze and need to be sure they will be safe during their act, just like spidey needs to be safe doing his thing.

now the one of the few reasons why spidey swings the way he does that is an think of is because he doesn't fear death from slinging and that's probably why he panicked so much and fell on his arse badly when his powers cut out in the second film in the three times he fell (once from just a jump).

but dragon, i know i'm not going to change you mind, if you like it, that's fine.

 

[Naite22]

SERIOUSLY!!! Take a look at this shot! The webslinging looks A LOT better than in spider-man 2 even!!! It really looks like his right there swinging. If some one could, try and post the shot from spidey 2 where we see him for the first time swinging with those pizza's! THEN you'll see the differents compared to this shot here! It looks so ****ing cool!! Couldn't ask for anything more, so DON'T! It's as good as it can be at this point in time.

 

[The Caped Knight]

SERIOUSLY!!! Take a look at this shot! The webslinging looks A LOT better than in spider-man 2 even!!! It really looks like his right there swinging. If some one could, try and post the shot from spidey 2 where we see him for the first time swinging with those pizza's! THEN you'll see the differents compared to this shot here! It looks so ****ing cool!! Couldn't ask for anything more, so DON'T! It's as good as it can be at this point in time.

Agreed

 

[lordofthenerds]

SERIOUSLY!!! Take a look at this shot! The webslinging looks A LOT better than in spider-man 2 even!!! It really looks like his right there swinging. If some one could, try and post the shot from spidey 2 where we see him for the first time swinging with those pizza's! THEN you'll see the differents compared to this shot here! It looks so ****ing cool!! Couldn't ask for anything more, so DON'T! It's as good as it can be at this point in time.

I agree. And I thought that two's web swinging was better than the first one's, so they seem to be improving every time.

 

[ultimatefan]

And I disagree. If that's the aim of the animation, to make it as realistic as possible, it WON'T break that rule unless it's for some special reason. Even then we'd detect something was wacky.

What's more, dude, we have an extremely keen sense of what looks real (or natural) and what seems extraordinary. That's indisputable.

Why is Jackie Chan even a star? Because he seems to somehow break boundaries with his phycial abilities honed over a lifetime of training.

I have to disagree, sorry, animation is by definition more expressionist than film, no matter how hard you try to make it look realistic. You´ll always get away more with whacky on animation than on film.

 

[November Rain]

well it really depends on the genre of the animation and there are certain aspects that take more liberties than most but when it comes to movement, most animation in the 90s and beyond do their best to keep things legit. in the superhero field the only real thing i see them doing is altering masks to give the impression of certain emotions but that's about it.

 

[Naite22]

I agree. And I thought that two's web swinging was better than the first one's, so they seem to be improving every time.

Agreed.. the webslinging in spidey 2 was very cool! and YES, it does look to improve everytime... I at least think that what I've seen so far from spidey 3 beats the CG from spidey 2

 

[dark_b]

Dragon, dragon dragon....

if you've read all my posts you would have realised i've noted the difference between a flat and vertical landing numerous times already.

Every cgi horizontal landing i can recall has been a bad one. Look at the spidey 3 trailer and teaser when spidey falls from the top of a building down (just before brock starts taking pics of him), a human is used and the way he naturally lands is to bend his knees more and lower his centre of gravity to take the impact

now this is a real human landing from a high position, granted it's a vertical drop but look how low he goes to get the impact and the shape his body naturally takes. heck he could even drop his hands and go into a spider pose, that's all i'm asking for on the landings but the cgi animators make it hard to do because you have so many scenes with spidey lunging leg first into everything, i think he should do faster rotations in the air so he can see where he's going more and it gives him a better chance of landing gracefully.

there is no act in any spidey film that has been shot that i don't believe could be physically duplilcated on a smaller scale by a top gymnast or flying trapeze artist, he hasn't contorted his body in any form or performed anything that i thought was out of the blue. the majority of the people are saying they are going for realism but you are the first to think that his movement are superhuman which i find bizzare, if you'd like to locate and post some of these scenes you've seen i'd be highly interested.

boring? that's kinda lame, how does landing like a spider or keeping a streamline shape ever come across as boring. If anything his swinging so far compared to comics and cartoons has been extrememly tame, why would adding spice make it boring?


Spidey is one of the most graceful superheroes out there proportionate speed, strength and agility of a spider, ring any bells? where has this idea that spidey is a brute come from, his every move should be a thing of beauty. I don't compute your danger egde coming from him looking (and maybe solely from my eyes) sloppy. Kicking up with your legs together generates more speed than apart, it's not rocket science it's simply momentum theory, greater combined mass, greated momentum with less drag (and greater speed and greater height).

I would equate spidey to be an extreme sports fanatic, even though he's cutting loose the pleasure he gets is from landing big moves and what not, the pleasure and fun comes from the perfection of hitting big moves. So you then think, except for some aerials and some loops, where are the big moves which you would expect to see from someone having fun? you know, the twirls, the big kicks, the fun spins? They've yet to be seen in bulk, a couple here and there. Saying this i feel he looks like he's having the most fun at the end of the first film (even though he lets out a woohoo in the second) so that's the one i have the least problems with. Spidey's got an analytical mind, he's a scientist and at heart i believe would ideally be a perfectionist.

I know in the movies they have taken away his arrogance by changing his motivation to stop his uncle's killer and to also take the wisecracks as well as his great abilities as an inventor but i still think there is a bit of that left in him, especially if he is still sellin pics of himself to the bugle. and if his rent is based on a good pic then he would have built in sense to try and always look good while webslinging sine he would be used to taking pictures of himself in action, just like how a model will always try and look their best before leaving their house because they never know if others will be watching, it becomes second nature, or don't you think?


the superman comparison is perfect because he is able to fly in and direction or rotation as he desires BUT BUT BUT BUT BUT, chooses to fly head first because guess what? IT's the best form through the air and while he's doing that. good lord, look at his legs, they are together.

look at neo's leg's during the matrix they are together too.

alright circus performers don't have to be as rigid as gymnasts here so why do they also keep their form while in the air? They are dealing with a life and death situation while flying through a trapeze and need to be sure they will be safe during their act, just like spidey needs to be safe doing his thing.

now the one of the few reasons why spidey swings the way he does that is an think of is because he doesn't fear death from slinging and that's probably why he panicked so much and fell on his arse badly when his powers cut out in the second film in the three times he fell (once from just a jump).

but dragon, i know i'm not going to change you mind, if you like it, that's fine.

thats why i think that they should used motion capture. it is very easie. you use motion capture to get the human version of motion. after that you can use your imagination and make him stronger,faster,....

but the movement would still be more natural. when a CGI artis riggs the CGI double from hes mind than.....we have very bad movement and it looks not natural.