The Dark Knight Rises History Check

[Infinity9999x]

I decided to start this thread in hopes of curbing some of the very circular arguments that have arisen via the Catwoman pics and the Bane "height" issue. Most likely it won't help all that much, but I figured I'd give it a shot.

So, for any of you new posters who weren't here in pre-2008, I'd like to give a brief history lesson to help give a new perspective on our current situation. The first picture of the Joker is released via the virals...and this was more or less the reaction....

OMG PANDA EYES!
I CAN'T SEE HIS HAIR! WILL HE EVEN HAVE GREEN HAIR!???
HE PROBABLY WON'T EVEN WEAR PURPLE BECAUSE TEH NOLAN HATEZ TEH UNREALIZMZZ!!!!!

And then we had some people who actually proceeded to argue why wearing purple or having green hair would be too unrealistic...because apparently green and purple aren't "real" enough colors.

People were freaking out. And this was before the perma-white thing. People were seriously worried that the Joker wouldn't have green hair or wear purple. That carried over to the Two-Face debates, with people arguing that his scarring would probably be very muted, very "realistic."

We all know how everything turned out. The Joker did have green hair, and he did end up having a purple suit, just with minor tweaks and Two-Face ended up being quite possibly one of the most comic to film accurate characters ever.

So the point is, let's try to not jump to hasty conclusions right off the bat. If you want to debate the merits of why Catwoman should have a cat mask, or why Bane should be taller, that's perfectly fine. But let's try and not automatically assume that Bane won't be tall and that Catwoman won't have any sort of cat-motif mask until we get more information. Because, literally, the same thing has happened before, and it ended up with a whole lot of people looking pretty silly for their overreactions.

I'm not saying that I think Bane will be shot to look bigger, or that Catwoman's costume will evolve, because there is every chance that these things won't happen. But there's every chance they could at this point as well. We just don't know. So let's try and not jump to conclusions, and actually have discussions on aspects of the film...instead of just filling forums with random statements like "OH MY GOD THIS IS GOING TO SUCK!" because...that's just not very fun.

 

[Goku Goes Crazy]

 

[Hole Shot]

what he said.

 

[Victarion]

Also, remember that spy pic of Ledger standing outside his trailer, hands behind his back? Had green hair and no makeup.

I remember that ****storm. Look at what happened...

 

[Doctor Who]

 

[Travesty]

Well, not everybody liked TDK. Second, it's kinda hard to compare a close up pic of The Joker's face, to a full on costume reveal of Catwoman. Once we had a full on costume reveal of Joker, people were coming around more. I think people just don't like the look of it.

That is all.....

 

[RKO]

 

[Eddie Brock]

Well, not everybody liked TDK. Second, it's kinda hard to compare a close up pic of The Joker's face, to a full on costume reveal of Catwoman. Once we had a full on costume reveal of Joker, people were coming around more. I think people just don't like the look of it.

That is all.....

Find me somewhere that WB or Nolan said, "This is the Catwoman costume. End of story."

 

[Infinity9999x]

Well, not everybody liked TDK. Second, it's kinda hard to compare a close up pic of The Joker's face, to a full on costume reveal of Catwoman. Once we had a full on costume reveal of Joker, people were coming around more. I think people just don't like the look of it.

That is all.....

I'm fine with that. It's perfectly logical for someone to say "if this is the full costume, I'm not a fan." However, the point is, it's still very early in production. I think it's premature to assume that there will be no evolution of Selina's costume, just as it's premature to assume Bane will not be shot in a way to make himself look bigger.

It's the comments where people pretty much come in and say "that's it! This sucks! This movie is going to suck!" that I'm addressing. I'm just saying people need to take a breath, and remember that the first images we get of the characters, especially in Nolan films, may not necessarily be their final look. At least not this early in the game. Keep an open mind.

 

[Dragon_316ca]

This thread should be stickied.

 

[RedSkull]

Most logical thread in a while. Make this a sticky

 

[Doc Phosphorus]

You're comparing people's idiotic "teh realism" frenzies from prior to any official TDK material to people making judgments based on real, officially released TDKR material.

I think what's more analogous may be the cat-cowl hopers to the permawhite deniers. Remember those people who, even after the pictures were released, were convinced that Joker had a layer of flesh colored makeup underneath his white makeup? Or that he'd suffer the chemical bath by the end of the movie? THAT strikes me as a similar type of denial.

We saw it again just a few months ago with Bane's mask. "Maybe it's not his full mask; maybe it'll evolve." Or even with the Amazing Spider-Man suit. "Oh, that's gotta be his wrestling outfit!

I'm not saying it's impossible that cat ears are still in our future, but it's hard to compare it to history and be optimistic. History's just full of a LOT of denial.

 

[Infinity9999x]

Most logical thread in a while. Make this a sticky

Thanks guys.

 

[Hole Shot]

I just don't understand why have to be on one side or the other and can't enjoy both.

There is almost a century's worth of different material. A lot of it is a total mess at times. And quite often the look of the character is pretty much how the artist most prefers to draw her. Her first appearance wasn't anything literally cat-like. And we accept all this in comic books. Why can't we accept this when a filmmaker draws his vision so long as it's not a totally insane stretch that it completely destroys the spirit of the character like Deadpool in Wolverine.

To me, I see a look that is still clearly inspired by her common comic book characteristics but fits within the rules of this series' universe. So long as Nolan gets the rest of her character, then I'm happy.

 

[Infinity9999x]

You're comparing people's idiotic "teh realism" frenzies from prior to any official TDK material to people making judgments based on real, officially released TDKR material.

I think what's more analogous may be the cat-cowl hopers to the permawhite deniers. Remember those people who, even after the pictures were released, were convinced that Joker had a layer of flesh colored makeup underneath his white makeup? Or that he'd suffer the chemical bath by the end of the movie? THAT strikes me as a similar type of denial.

We saw it again just a few months ago with Bane's mask. "Maybe it's not his full mask; maybe it'll evolve." Or even with the Amazing Spider-Man suit. "Oh, that's gotta be his wrestling outfit!

I'm not saying it's impossible that cat ears are still in our future, but it's hard to compare it to history and be optimistic. History's just full of a LOT of denial.

No I'm not. I'm comparing people's 'teh realims' frenzies to post-released official pictures of the Joker to post-released official pictures of Catwoman. The freak outs about him not wearing purple and not having green hair came about AFTER the first official picture of the Joker was released.

However, I agree with you. There is a long history of denial. This is a full picture of Catwoman, but this early in the game there is still more then enough chance for her costume to evolve. She may not be a character like the Joker who appears fully formed and doesn't really evolve. We may watch her turn into Catwoman. She may not yet have fully adopted the Catwoman persona....or maybe she has and this really will be the only suit.

The point is, we just don't know yet. And it's good to keep an open mind and not make black and white comments when we just don't have the information, because that doesn't lead to good discussion.

 

[Eddie Brock]

I just don't understand why have to be on one side or the other and can't enjoy both.

There is almost a century's worth of different material. A lot of it is a total mess at times. And quite often the look of the character is pretty much how the artist most prefers to draw her. Her first appearance wasn't anything literally cat-like. And we accept all this in comic books. Why can't we accept this when a filmmaker draws his vision so long as it's not a totally insane stretch that it completely destroys the spirit of the character like Deadpool in Wolverine.

To me, I see a look that is still clearly inspired by her common comic book characteristics but fits within the rules of this series' universe. So long as Nolan gets the rest of her character, then I'm happy.

Logic makes my heart warm. It's not like Selina Kyle is wearing bright pink with angel wings, for Christ's sake. From the neck down, she looks exactly like the comics. And from the neck up, well, you could argue that it's not far off. (And I would.)

 

[Travesty]

You're comparing people's idiotic "teh realism" frenzies from prior to any official TDK material to people making judgments based on real, officially released TDKR material.

I think what's more analogous may be the cat-cowl hopers to the permawhite deniers. Remember those people who, even after the pictures were released, were convinced that Joker had a layer of flesh colored makeup underneath his white makeup? Or that he'd suffer the chemical bath by the end of the movie? THAT strikes me as a similar type of denial.

We saw it again just a few months ago with Bane's mask. "Maybe it's not his full mask; maybe it'll evolve." Or even with the Amazing Spider-Man suit. "Oh, that's gotta be his wrestling outfit!

I'm not saying it's impossible that cat ears are still in our future, but it's hard to compare it to history and be optimistic. History's just full of a LOT of denial.

Yeah, I agree. And I've said it MANY times in the Bane thread about his height, in that it is wishful thinking, just like the "flesh colored makeup over the permawhite".

I don't care if people think that the costume will evolve, but I'm pretty sure that's what Catwoman will look like.

 

[Goku Goes Crazy]

Logic makes my heart warm. It's not like Selina Kyle is wearing bright pink with angel wings, for Christ's sake. From the neck down, she looks exactly like the comics. And from the neck up, well, you could argue that it's not far off. (And I would.)

God bless you Eddie Brock.

 

[Infinity9999x]

I just don't understand why have to be on one side or the other and can't enjoy both.

There is almost a century's worth of different material. A lot of it is a total mess at times. And quite often the look of the character is pretty much how the artist most prefers to draw her. Her first appearance wasn't anything literally cat-like. And we accept all this in comic books. Why can't we accept this when a filmmaker draws his vision so long as it's not a totally insane stretch that it completely destroys the spirit of the character like Deadpool in Wolverine.

To me, I see a look that is still clearly inspired by her common comic book characteristics but fits within the rules of this series' universe. So long as Nolan gets the rest of her character, then I'm happy.

I think that's perfectly fine. See, that's a valid issue that can lead to interesting discussion. That kind of thing is fun to debate. It's the statements that come about as a symptom of the overreactions that don't lead to good discussion "This is all we're getting? THIS MOVIE WILL SUCK!" and things like that.

 

[Anjow1060]

I'm not usually a complainer. The perma-white thing I was fine with him being w/o. In fact, I was pro-face paint.

The "Ras never wore the green cloak and never called him 'Detective'" thing - same. Didn't Bother me.

The alterations to bane's mask (And Bane is my favorite Bat-villain) don't bother me at all. Nor does his height / muscle mass. (And no I don't think their gonna have Mr. Thau CGI him some more).

But this.... this I take issue with. I'm not jumping to conclusions on the costume, but no cowl to any extent for the majority of the film really kinda sucks for me as a fan. I'm sure it won't ruin the movie, but it just won't be the same. This is obviously the end of the movie with all the players in motion - and it'll just be "lacking." unless she's coming from just being un-masked or something. Idk,

I'll be cool about it and wait, but for the opposing argument - it's fair to say the lack of a Cat-cowl is discouraging in anticipation for the character being in the movie.

- Jow

 

[ChrisBaleBatman]

I don't really have a height issue with Bane.

I have a "what the **** is on his face" issue with Bane, though.

But, yes. People have freaked out before...that's true. Heath was catching a TON of heat from fanboys before The Dark Knight was released. Bale was catching a few too before Batman Begins.

And those two worked out pretty ****ing well.

 

[Infinity9999x]

Yeah, I agree. And I've said it MANY times in the Bane thread about his height, in that it is wishful thinking, just like the "flesh colored makeup over the permawhite".

I don't care if people think that the costume will evolve, but I'm pretty sure that's what Catwoman will look like.

Again, that's fine. But at least you're not making matter of fact statements to the point that what you think is what is going to happen for sure and you're 100% right. You're still open to debate. And all I'm saying is to keep an open mind, because we've already had a very similar situation to this happen before. You could very well be right and Bane won't be filmed to look bigger and Catwoman's suit won't evolve. Or you might not. It's still very early in the game to make those calls for sure. Had the Catwoman picture been released as close to the movie as the Two-Face pic was released to TDK, then I'd be more inclined to agree with you. At this point, I think there's still sufficient room for reasonable doubt.

 

[ChrisBaleBatman]

I'm not usually a complainer. The perma-white thing I was fine with him being w/o. In fact, I was pro-face paint.

The "Ras never wore the green cloak and never called him 'Detective'" thing - same. Didn't Bother me.

The alterations to bane's mask (And Bane is my favorite Bat-villain) don't bother me at all. Nor does his height / muscle mass. (And no I don't think their gonna have Mr. Thau CGI him some more).

But this.... this I take issue with. I'm not jumping to conclusions on the costume, but no cowl to any extent for the majority of the film really kinda sucks for me as a fan. I'm sure it won't ruin the movie, but it just won't be the same. This is obviously the end of the movie with all the players in motion - and it'll just be "lacking." unless she's coming from just being un-masked or something. Idk,

I'll be cool about it and wait, but for the opposing argument - it's fair to say the lack of a Cat-cowl is discouraging in anticipation for the character being in the movie.

- Jow

Agreed.

Although, the perma white thing still bothers me. But, I could see Anne's Selina being the same way for me. Just that one thing that bugs me, even though everything else was great.

 

[Infinity9999x]

I'll be cool about it and wait, but for the opposing argument - it's fair to say the lack of a Cat-cowl is discouraging in anticipation for the character being in the movie.

- Jow

Oh, definitely. I will be disappointed if there's no cat-cowl/mask as well. And I can understand someone being discouraged. But like I said, it's the overreaction comments that really don't add anything to intelligent conversation I was getting at. Not people voicing logical concerns like you are.

 

[the Wankstar]