How come don't believe in evolution if...

Memphis Slim said:
Says common sense.

Example: You see a building. But the builder is nowhere around. You can't touch him, see him or smell him. But you have to know that that structure with the plumbing, the wiring, the exact measuerments etc, didn't just pop outta nothing. There had to be and intelligence behind it. How much more complex and balance is the universe we live in. How you can look at nature and not see a perfectly run machine is beyond me.

Wishing God away does nothing.
Click to expand...
But the thing is, Memphis Slim, we have discovered a process where complex beings can arrive from simple ones. It's called evolution via natural selection.

Unlike your faith, evolution is science. If it really were unsound, it would be thrown out. And as I'm sure you know, a lot of people have been trying to disprove it, because it flies in the way of their religious beliefs. But you know what?

In the almost 150 years since Darwin first put fourth his theory, scientests have found mountains and mountains of evidence in the form of genetics, fossils and observable evidence (fruitflies and viruses).

It has passed every test that has been thrown at it. With flying colours.

Evolution does no disprove a god. But it does disprove that any organic being was designed. It offers a completely selfsufficient mechinism for the explaination of complex life.
 
I’ll take Darwin’s Origin of the Species over a mythological book that claims dinosaurs lived with humans and Noah gathered all the animals two by two into a big boat.
 
"I had Richard Dawkins on here the other night and I think I beat him". Man, O'Reilly should go into stand up, cause that was comedy gold.
 
That vid just said everything I was going to say, but better.
 
Does it matter where we came from? Does our exiestence always has to be justified by our convictions?
 
Biggest religious loophole:

If we have a destiny, then free will does not exist. Only the illusion of free will. And if we are destined to do everything in our lives, then how can God judge whether or not we go to heaven or hell, for decisions that were already predetermined.

To put it simply God judges his own decisions and punishes or rewards us for them.
 
How do I know that God exists?

by Winston Hudson

Let's just put it this way, I can prove God better than a Scientist, any Scientist can prove evolution. Michael J. Bebe, in his book "Darwin's Black Box" makes a profound statement. Dr. Bebe states that no where can you find a model of how complex systems evolved, not in Harvard, or any other scientific institution. Recent findings in Biochemistry has uncovered how irreducibly complex systems, such as blood clotting and eye sight, work. The Scientist say that most mutations occur as small changes that has to improve the species to be passed on. These systems have to have extremely complex, multiple mutations to work, so without divine knowledge the cells would not know to save the useless mutations until the last one completes the system. One quick example, light travels around the Earth approximately 6 times in one second, and your eye process's information from the light as it passes the width of a human hair. The optical message is converted into a chemical reaction and then is transmitted by electricity to the brain through the optic nerve. All the mutations needed to convert these different systems and keep them balanced had to be installed as a unit.

Communism or Socialism has historically used evolution to reprogram the human mind's common sense. Originally your mind based it's decisions on God and common every day things. Now you are convinced that you are foolish to believe in Creation after you have accepted evolution to be true.

Go to your kitchen and place a grain of salt on a plate, visualize something millions of times smaller that the grain of salt. This is what Scientist believe the mass of the whole Universe was compressed into, at the event of the big bang. The actual number is supposed to be .000000000000000000000000000001mm. This includes all the stars, planets and everything, ever where. They also say that time and space did not exist before then. I call that creation.
Some people say that the Bible only accounts for Earth being about 6000 years old. Uncle Albert and Godel have convinced me that science has no idea what time actually is. "A World Without Time" is about the relationship between Einstein and Godel. Godel, according to Harvard made the most profound mathematical discovery of the century. He proved that Math has a incompleteness to it. Godel also found something else that made him withdraw into secrecy and I believe the scientific community black balled him about. He believed that Einstein's "Theory of Relativity", revealed God. After withdrawing and starving to death, Harvard sent two men to public memorial service to mock him because of his belief in God.
Quantum Physics has uncovered wave particles that do spooky things. One of the two particles is always opposite in reference to the other one. They do not have a up or down position until someone assigns one of them, up or down. Immediately the other one assumes the opposite position. Some Scientist say that this is profound and that what they have actually discovered is free will.
So I agree that you can not prove God to an unbeliever, but the person who ignores the spiritual things of life is missing a lot of good stuff here, where there is a here after or not.
 
Memphis Slim said:
How do I know that God exists?

by Winston Hudson

Let's just put it this way, I can prove God better than a Scientist, any Scientist can prove evolution. Michael J. Bebe, in his book "Darwin's Black Box" makes a profound statement. Dr. Bebe states that no where can you find a model of how complex systems evolved, not in Harvard, or any other scientific institution. Recent findings in Biochemistry has uncovered how irreducibly complex systems, such as blood clotting and eye sight, work. The Scientist say that most mutations occur as small changes that has to improve the species to be passed on. These systems have to have extremely complex, multiple mutations to work, so without divine knowledge the cells would not know to save the useless mutations until the last one completes the system. One quick example, light travels around the Earth approximately 6 times in one second, and your eye process's information from the light as it passes the width of a human hair. The optical message is converted into a chemical reaction and then is transmitted by electricity to the brain through the optic nerve. All the mutations needed to convert these different systems and keep them balanced had to be installed as a unit.

Communism or Socialism has historically used evolution to reprogram the human mind's common sense. Originally your mind based it's decisions on God and common every day things. Now you are convinced that you are foolish to believe in Creation after you have accepted evolution to be true.

Go to your kitchen and place a grain of salt on a plate, visualize something millions of times smaller that the grain of salt. This is what Scientist believe the mass of the whole Universe was compressed into, at the event of the big bang. The actual number is supposed to be .000000000000000000000000000001mm. This includes all the stars, planets and everything, ever where. They also say that time and space did not exist before then. I call that creation.
Some people say that the Bible only accounts for Earth being about 6000 years old. Uncle Albert and Godel have convinced me that science has no idea what time actually is. "A World Without Time" is about the relationship between Einstein and Godel. Godel, according to Harvard made the most profound mathematical discovery of the century. He proved that Math has a incompleteness to it. Godel also found something else that made him withdraw into secrecy and I believe the scientific community black balled him about. He believed that Einstein's "Theory of Relativity", revealed God. After withdrawing and starving to death, Harvard sent two men to public memorial service to mock him because of his belief in God.
Quantum Physics has uncovered wave particles that do spooky things. One of the two particles is always opposite in reference to the other one. They do not have a up or down position until someone assigns one of them, up or down. Immediately the other one assumes the opposite position. Some Scientist say that this is profound and that what they have actually discovered is free will.
So I agree that you can not prove God to an unbeliever, but the person who ignores the spiritual things of life is missing a lot of good stuff here, where there is a here after or not.
Click to expand...
must read that about 2 more times now
uhm...i think i want godel's biography :woot:
 
I like how when everyone makes statements they always say "recent studies have blah blah blah", and then fail to cite sources.
 
Here's a question:

Why are people so insistent on changing beliefs of others?

Why don't the believers just let us go to hell, and why don't we non-believers just laugh behind their backs all the way to the grave?
 
I love when he tries to equate communism with evolution as if the one implied the other. Once again, celldog, evolution and the big bang are two entirely different theories and bringing the big bang into question -- another argument for another time when you will again be shamed -- in no way disturbs evolution's credibility.
 
Memphis Slim said:
How do I know that God exists?

by Winston Hudson

Let's just put it this way, I can prove God better than a Scientist, any Scientist can prove evolution. Michael J. Bebe, in his book "Darwin's Black Box" makes a profound statement. Dr. Bebe states that no where can you find a model of how complex systems evolved, not in Harvard, or any other scientific institution. Recent findings in Biochemistry has uncovered how irreducibly complex systems, such as blood clotting and eye sight, work. The Scientist say that most mutations occur as small changes that has to improve the species to be passed on. These systems have to have extremely complex, multiple mutations to work, so without divine knowledge the cells would not know to save the useless mutations until the last one completes the system. One quick example, light travels around the Earth approximately 6 times in one second, and your eye process's information from the light as it passes the width of a human hair. The optical message is converted into a chemical reaction and then is transmitted by electricity to the brain through the optic nerve. All the mutations needed to convert these different systems and keep them balanced had to be installed as a unit.

Communism or Socialism has historically used evolution to reprogram the human mind's common sense. Originally your mind based it's decisions on God and common every day things. Now you are convinced that you are foolish to believe in Creation after you have accepted evolution to be true.

Go to your kitchen and place a grain of salt on a plate, visualize something millions of times smaller that the grain of salt. This is what Scientist believe the mass of the whole Universe was compressed into, at the event of the big bang. The actual number is supposed to be .000000000000000000000000000001mm. This includes all the stars, planets and everything, ever where. They also say that time and space did not exist before then. I call that creation.
Some people say that the Bible only accounts for Earth being about 6000 years old. Uncle Albert and Godel have convinced me that science has no idea what time actually is. "A World Without Time" is about the relationship between Einstein and Godel. Godel, according to Harvard made the most profound mathematical discovery of the century. He proved that Math has a incompleteness to it. Godel also found something else that made him withdraw into secrecy and I believe the scientific community black balled him about. He believed that Einstein's "Theory of Relativity", revealed God. After withdrawing and starving to death, Harvard sent two men to public memorial service to mock him because of his belief in God.
Quantum Physics has uncovered wave particles that do spooky things. One of the two particles is always opposite in reference to the other one. They do not have a up or down position until someone assigns one of them, up or down. Immediately the other one assumes the opposite position. Some Scientist say that this is profound and that what they have actually discovered is free will.
So I agree that you can not prove God to an unbeliever, but the person who ignores the spiritual things of life is missing a lot of good stuff here, where there is a here after or not.
Click to expand...

This is a perfect example of an 'Argument from personal incredulity', the basic, 'I don't understand how this can possibly work, therefore it can't be true'

What this tells me about this person, and others that state the same thing is that they are saying that they know everything about the universe and the way it works, and can unabashedly make such a statement.

This is extremely presumptuous, especially since science has, over the millennia, explained away thousands of happenings once attributed to a divine intervention.

Knowing this how can you possibly state for a fact that because we don't know everything there is to know about the universe, that there has to be a God.

I label myself an Agnostic for the same reason, I simply don't know enough about the universe to make a claim that wouldn't be presumptuous, though if I were a betting man, I'd let it all ride that there isn't a God as he was taught to us.
 
Memphis Slim said:
How do I know that God exists?

by Winston Hudson

Let's just put it this way, I can prove God better than a Scientist, any Scientist can prove evolution. Michael J. Bebe, in his book "Darwin's Black Box" makes a profound statement. Dr. Bebe states that no where can you find a model of how complex systems evolved, not in Harvard, or any other scientific institution. Recent findings in Biochemistry has uncovered how irreducibly complex systems, such as blood clotting and eye sight, work. The Scientist say that most mutations occur as small changes that has to improve the species to be passed on. These systems have to have extremely complex, multiple mutations to work, so without divine knowledge the cells would not know to save the useless mutations until the last one completes the system. One quick example, light travels around the Earth approximately 6 times in one second, and your eye process's information from the light as it passes the width of a human hair. The optical message is converted into a chemical reaction and then is transmitted by electricity to the brain through the optic nerve. All the mutations needed to convert these different systems and keep them balanced had to be installed as a unit.

Communism or Socialism has historically used evolution to reprogram the human mind's common sense. Originally your mind based it's decisions on God and common every day things. Now you are convinced that you are foolish to believe in Creation after you have accepted evolution to be true.

Go to your kitchen and place a grain of salt on a plate, visualize something millions of times smaller that the grain of salt. This is what Scientist believe the mass of the whole Universe was compressed into, at the event of the big bang. The actual number is supposed to be .000000000000000000000000000001mm. This includes all the stars, planets and everything, ever where. They also say that time and space did not exist before then. I call that creation.
Some people say that the Bible only accounts for Earth being about 6000 years old. Uncle Albert and Godel have convinced me that science has no idea what time actually is. "A World Without Time" is about the relationship between Einstein and Godel. Godel, according to Harvard made the most profound mathematical discovery of the century. He proved that Math has a incompleteness to it. Godel also found something else that made him withdraw into secrecy and I believe the scientific community black balled him about. He believed that Einstein's "Theory of Relativity", revealed God. After withdrawing and starving to death, Harvard sent two men to public memorial service to mock him because of his belief in God.
Quantum Physics has uncovered wave particles that do spooky things. One of the two particles is always opposite in reference to the other one. They do not have a up or down position until someone assigns one of them, up or down. Immediately the other one assumes the opposite position. Some Scientist say that this is profound and that what they have actually discovered is free will.
So I agree that you can not prove God to an unbeliever, but the person who ignores the spiritual things of life is missing a lot of good stuff here, where there is a here after or not.
Click to expand...

That article was pitiful. I ask once again, can you please cite a scientific text that refutes the evolution of eyes, along with the rest of that mumbo jumbo you posted? You can't? Oh, I guess that's because we have had rational scientific theories for the evolution of the eye for over one hundred years.

From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolution_of_the_eye

The eye is a famous example of a supposedly "irreducibly complex" structure: due to its many elaborate and interlocking parts, seemingly all dependent upon one another for proper functioning, it is frequently claimed that the eye could not have evolved through gradual, step-by-step, evolutionary improvements guided only by natural selection.

Michael Behe used the "development of the eye problem" as evidence for intelligent design in his controversial book, Darwin's Black Box, and creationist website Answers in Genesis describes the eye as evolutionary biologists' "greatest challenge as an example of superb 'irreducible complexity' in God's creation".[20]

The argument that the eye could not have evolved is most commonly invoked in questions such as "What good is half an eye?" The assumption is that an incomplete eye would be completely useless for sight, and therefore an eye could never have evolved through the gradual, step-by-step progression required by modern evolutionary theory. However, this claim has been heavily disputed based on the plentiful evidence of suboptimal eyes in nature. Such eyes, despite their shortcomings, tend to be dramatically more useful for organisms than no eyes at all would be: people with visual impairments are generally much more able to function normally than people who are completely blind, and there are millions of species of animals with significantly simpler eyes than humans that nonetheless thrive, and are in many cases much more successful than similar species with still poorer vision.[18] Thus eyes with decreased functionality, in humans and in numerous other species, still tend to be more beneficial than having no eyes at all.[21]

Conversely, the human eye is suboptimal compared to what many would consider to be "lesser animals." Human visual acuity is, in daytime, noticeably less than that of raptors in terms of spatial resolution, and significantly less than various insects in terms of spectral range. At night, visual acuity is less than predators such as raptors and cats, and invertebrate molluscs such as squid and octopuses. The visual champion, however, is currently the mantis shrimp. This invertebrate possesses polarization capability, hyperspectral capability (with three to four times the number of receptors by range as humans, without including interpolation, over a wider spectral range), and triple redundant depth perception from both their eye constructions and their multiple eyestalk motions (both 2D tracking, and axial rotation). The fact that these capabilities are achieved using a compound eye layout is especially notable, and a sign of radically divergent evolution. Thus, the vertebrate layout can be considered half (perhaps even a third or less) of an eye compared to the mantis shrimp form, while still being "good" in many respects.

Although the eye remains a common and popular example of complexity in arguments against evolution, some intelligent design and creationism advocates have abandoned the eye as an example of "irreducible complexity". As the detail and history of eye evolution have become better understood, its role in these circles has declined and been replaced by molecular and microscopic structures such as the flagellum. However, much as with the eye, research into these smaller-scale structures has also uncovered details of their evolution[22].

The eye argument might be said to stem from a "God of the gaps" strategy, or more broadly, the "argument from incredulity" fallacy.
 
The reason there’s still such back lash against evolution is primarily the fear of this all being meaningless. Religion as a whole is meant to give people a false sense of hope that they’ll rise up into heaven or get reincarnated into a rich person. It doesn’t matter that there’s no proof what so ever, but if you look back you’ll notice there was also tons of back lash against the notion that the Earth was round and wasn’t the centre of the universe. There’s still people that think those are true too.
Oh and Celldog, at least start posting your own writings instead of just copying and pasting from your neo-con newsletters.
 
Kritish said:
The reason there’s still such back lash against evolution is primarily the fear of this all being meaningless. Religion as a whole is meant to give people a false sense of hope that they’ll rise up into heaven or get reincarnated into a rich person.
Click to expand...

To me it seems backwards. Having this wonderful afterlife to look forwards to when I die would make me not care about what I do in this life, whereas the idea that this is the only life I get makes me want to make the most of it and not @#^$ it up.
 
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