"How the Vatican created Islam."

TheSumOfGod said:
As I have stated many times before, in order to be an objective researcher, or simply an objective person, I cannot allow myself to believe in ANYTHING. I posted this simply because I found it to be an interesting read. And for all you offended muslims in this thread, I strongly suggest that you re-read the story, for it clearly presents the Roman Catholic Church as being "evil", and the muslims as being it's victims, along with the jews and the true christians of this world. :o

So only Catholics should be offended. This is starting to seem familar:

http://www.landoverbaptist.org/sermons/dangcatholics.html
 
Kurosawa said:
Yeah, it's possible. It's hardly out of the realm of possabilitiy that Jewish immigrants could have changed or anglecized their surname to Kent and became farmers. Plus the GA Smallville was close to Metropolis unlike the modern day Smallville which is in Kansas.


Still that was a fun link. I enjoyed Elliot S Maggins take.

He thinks Luthor is a non practing jew, that was a revalation.

Thanks...
 
Interesting possibility. I wouldn't be at all surprised if it turned out to be true.
 
Like some other people already said in this thread, it's just a little too convenient that none of the information contained in the article can be verified or confirmed. Add to that accusations of fraud and deceit and one can have a hard time figuring out the kind of gullible sucker it would take who would gobble it all like some Thanksgiving turkey. And secondly, all this is just a poor attempt at creating yet ANOTHER conspiracy theory (a particularly LAME one, that is) by twisting and ignoring the facts as they happened.

I'd really love to do a point-by-point dissection of the whole article but there's just so much garbage in there I don't know where to begin. So I singled out some key phrases and will reply appropriately, such as:

'Some of Muhammad’s writings were placed in the Koran, others were never published. They are now in the hands of high ranking holy men (Ayatollahs) in the Islamic faith.'

Before starting off, I'll just reiterate what I said about the Qur'an and it's preservation as it was from another thread:

Phaser said:
First of all, the complete history of compilation of the Holy Qur'an can be found on these sites and as one can see, there is a lot of difference between what Batscot's damn lies claim and what is in here:

http://www.sunnah.org/history/quran_compiled.htm
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/compilationbrief.html
http://www.sunnah.org/history/quran_compiled.htm

And here's the deathblow, proof of the Qur'an's preservation:
http://www.iol.ie/~afifi/BICNews/Sabeel/sabeel3.htm

For those of you who are too lazy, here's everything in a nutshell:

The Osmani mathhaf, or Osmani text which was an authenticated and verified copy of the original compilation of Holy Qur'an (that conisisted of the original manuscripts)that was passed on by the first Caliph Abu Bakr (who had memorized the entire Qur'an by heart) to Caliph Omar (also the memorizer of the complete Qur'an) that was given to his daughter Hafsah after his death which the third Caliph Uthman(he also had memorized the entire Qurán by heart) requested from Hafsah to make copies for wide distribution. The text was verified for its authenticity by a committee of Huffaaz (ones who have memorized the entire Qur'an by heart) of the Holy Qur'an, the committee consisted of the elite huffaaz of the Muslim community (which were quite a lot) and was headed under the direct supervision of the Caliph Uthman himself. The decision to make a copy from the original compilation for wide distribution came as many people recorded the Qur'an from the some of the huffaaz and wrote it down, but without the the vowel signs however, which drastically changed the recitation and the meaning (In the Arabic language, a slight variation in vowel sign can mean the difference as big as between masculine and feminine, giver and reciever and so on). Soon, these faulty copies of the Qur'an were circulating around. Recitation and meaning differed among the different copies. And so to settle the matter once and for all, the Osmani Mathhaf was created and it is still preserved today, in its original unaltered state in a museum in Istanbul and comparison shows that the Qur'an today is the exact replica of the Osmani text, word for word, vowel for vowel. The faulty copies then during those times, were subsequently collected and burned.

The Qur'an has been passed on not only through manuscripts and compilations, but every generation of Islam has its own share and number of huffaz who made sure the Qur'an is kept free of any kind of human tampering and editing. Any effort made to mess with the Qur'anic text would be immediately exposed. The huffaaz have played the role of the guardians of the Qur'an throughout the ages and the tradition continues even today. Even today there are thousands of huffaaz in every Muslim nation (thankfully to God, I am one of them) who are observant of the purity of their Holy Book. The Qur'an has not only been preserved in manuscripts and books, but in the hearts of men as well, a privilage that the Bible, sadly, has been deprived of.
The Qur'an is complete, free from any kind of human tampering or editing. The huffaaz made sure of that fact through the ages and their agreement is a blatant testimony to the complete preservation of the Qur'anic text.

The Othmani mathhaf is now still present at the Islamic museum in Istanbul, complete with the Caliph Usman's blood which was spilled on the pages of the book when he was murdered by rioters.

I suppose that will remove all doubt one might have regarding any kind of tampering, manipulation or omission with/from the Qur'anic text. Unless and until you accuse each and every "haafiz" (one who has memorized the entire Qur'an by heart) throught the centuries, from the very companions of The Prophet of Islam 1400 years ago right until this very day (which would account for millions, literally, including *me*) as being players in this huge "conspiracy", your argument falls flat on it's ass.

"A light control was kept on Muslims from the Ayatollah down through the Islamic priests, nuns and monks. The Vatican also engineers a campaign of hatred between the Muslim Arabs and the Jews. Before this, they had co-existed peacefully.

The majority of the world's Muslims throughout the ages were Sunni Muslims, while the Ayatollah is something associated with the Shiite sect that are heavily at odds with the Sunnis. Furthermore, unlike Christianity, there is no concept of priesthood in Islam - there never has been one. Even an Ayatollah among Shiites is merely a respected, learned scholar on Islamic studies and jurisprudence and so, they have never been able to attain the level of absolute authority and ultimate leadership in Islamic matters like say, the Pope.

"What has this got to do with Islam? Note Bishop Sheen’s
statement: "Our Lady’s appearances at Fatima marked the turning point in the history of the world’s 350 million Muslims. After the death of his daughter, Muhammad wrote that she "is the most holy of all women in Paradise, next to Mary."


I guess this bloke forgot to mention a few other names - Aasiya (the wife of the Pharoah who adopted monotheism and was persecuted for it) and all of the Prophet's wives are the "most holy of all women in Paradise" next to the Prophet's daughters (yes, he had more than one) and Mary.

Ah, the cornerstone, the bread-and-butter of any good conspirary theory - throw out that which doesn't apply or can be perceived as a threat that can literally OBLITERATE the already non-existent credibility of said "theory". ;)

"He believed that the Virgin Mary chose to be known as Our Lady of Fatima as a sign and a pledge that the Muslims who believe in Christ’s virgin birth, will come to believe in His divinity.

Uhh, come again? Muslims believe in Christ's virgin birth as one of the miracles of God and think of Christ as nothing more than one of God's most powerful messengers. In fact, the phrase "Isa (Jesus), the son of Maryem (Mary)" is repeated countless number of times in the Qur'an. Not to mention there are just as many hadith (narrations attributed to The Prophet) where the Prophet himself is quoted to have implied that Jesus holds no share in Divinity and anyone who thinks to the contrary is an apostate and a disbeliever in Islamic creed. There are countless such narrations attributed to the Prophet's companions who also have reiterated and explained on this very fact.

(No offense to Christian brothers, I'm just explaining Islamic beliefs to counter TSOG's outlandish "theories" so let's not get off-topic here, please)

"Bishop Sheen pointed out that the pilgrim virgin statues of Our Lady of Fatima were enthusiastically received by Muslims in Africa, India, and elsewhere, and that many Muslims are now coming into the Roman Catholic Church."

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! :D

If this does not expose the cock-and-bull story depicted in this article, nothing will.

Statues or pictures that seek to depict the likeness of any of Islam's revered figures - be they God's Prophets or the daughters, wives and companions of the Prophet of Islam or even Mary, aren't exactly "welcomed" by the Muslim community. I thought the whole "cartoon controversy" had made at least that much clear.

Indian Muslims are particulaly some of the strongest and most vocal opponents of the creation and/or worshipping of idols, statues or pictures that seek to depict the likeness of Islam's revered figures. I won't even dare you to try and tell me that these people would "enthusiastically recieve pilgrim virgin statues of Lady Fatima", because you can't. I know better than every single poser on this board and elsewhere who would claim otherwise because I am an Indian Muslim.

The Arabs thought they were honoring the daughter of Muhammad, which is what the Jesuits wanted them to believe.

I don't even know how that makes any sense, since it was Mary who gave the virgin-birth and NOT Lady Fatima as she was married to The Prophet's cousin brother Ali and gave birth to two sons, Hasan and Hussain, so HOW THE HELL did the Vatican conspirators "wanted them" to think of Lady Fatima as the virgin Mary when they are NOTHING alike is totally beyond me. And if I might add, despite the revered position of the daughter of the Prophet in Islam, she too holds absolutely no share in Divinity and is not worshipped by Muslims.

So TSOG, instead of simply "standing by" your proposed theory, why not be a sport and get cracking on an appropriately sufficient reply now, will ya? And please, no more of your asinine links, because in doing so, you come off as being just as gullible of being fed whatever crap your "sources" cook up for you as the masses you accuse of being manipulated by government-controlled media. As if you need your conspiracy theorists to think for you instead of doing that yourself.
 
wow. a conspiracy i buy into. ive read a lot of crappy theories over the years, but this one i actually think might be true :confused:
 
Phaser said:
Like some other people already said in this thread, it's just a little too convenient that none of the information contained in the article can be verified or confirmed. Add to that accusations of fraud and deceit and one can have a hard time figuring out the kind of gullible sucker it would take who would gobble it all like some Thanksgiving turkey. And secondly, all this is just a poor attempt at creating yet ANOTHER conspiracy theory (a particularly LAME one, that is) by twisting and ignoring the facts as they happened.

I'd really love to do a point-by-point dissection of the whole article but there's just so much garbage in there I don't know where to begin. So I singled out some key phrases and will reply appropriately, such as:

'Some of Muhammad’s writings were placed in the Koran, others were never published. They are now in the hands of high ranking holy men (Ayatollahs) in the Islamic faith.'

Before starting off, I'll just reiterate what I said about the Qur'an and it's preservation as it was from another thread:



I suppose that will remove all doubt one might have regarding any kind of tampering, manipulation or omission with/from the Qur'anic text. Unless and until you accuse each and every "haafiz" (one who has memorized the entire Qur'an by heart) throught the centuries, from the very companions of The Prophet of Islam 1400 years ago right until this very day (which would account for millions, literally, including *me*) as being players in this huge "conspiracy", your argument falls flat on it's ass.

"A light control was kept on Muslims from the Ayatollah down through the Islamic priests, nuns and monks. The Vatican also engineers a campaign of hatred between the Muslim Arabs and the Jews. Before this, they had co-existed peacefully.

The majority of the world's Muslims throughout the ages were Sunni Muslims, while the Ayatollah is something associated with the Shiite sect that are heavily at odds with the Sunnis. Furthermore, unlike Christianity, there is no concept of priesthood in Islam - there never has been one. Even an Ayatollah among Shiites is merely a respected, learned scholar on Islamic studies and jurisprudence and so, they have never been able to attain the level of absolute authority and ultimate leadership in Islamic matters like say, the Pope.

"What has this got to do with Islam? Note Bishop Sheen’s
statement: "Our Lady’s appearances at Fatima marked the turning point in the history of the world’s 350 million Muslims. After the death of his daughter, Muhammad wrote that she "is the most holy of all women in Paradise, next to Mary."

I guess this bloke forgot to mention a few other names - Aasiya (the wife of the Pharoah who adopted monotheism and was persecuted for it) and all of the Prophet's wives are the "most holy of all women in Paradise" next to the Prophet's daughters (yes, he had more than one) and Mary.

Ah, the cornerstone, the bread-and-butter of any good conspirary theory - throw out that which doesn't apply or can be perceived as a threat that can literally OBLITERATE the already non-existent credibility of said "theory". ;)

"He believed that the Virgin Mary chose to be known as Our Lady of Fatima as a sign and a pledge that the Muslims who believe in Christ’s virgin birth, will come to believe in His divinity.

Uhh, come again? Muslims believe in Christ's virgin birth as one of the miracles of God and think of Christ as nothing more than one of God's most powerful messengers. In fact, the phrase "Isa (Jesus), the son of Maryem (Mary)" is repeated countless number of times in the Qur'an. Not to mention there are just as many hadith (narrations attributed to The Prophet) where the Prophet himself is quoted to have implied that Jesus holds no share in Divinity and anyone who thinks to the contrary is an apostate and a disbeliever in Islamic creed. There are countless such narrations attributed to the Prophet's companions who also have reiterated and explained on this very fact.

(No offense to Christian brothers, I'm just explaining Islamic beliefs to counter TSOG's outlandish "theories" so let's not get off-topic here, please)

"Bishop Sheen pointed out that the pilgrim virgin statues of Our Lady of Fatima were enthusiastically received by Muslims in Africa, India, and elsewhere, and that many Muslims are now coming into the Roman Catholic Church."

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! :D

If this does not expose the cock-and-bull story depicted in this article, nothing will.

Statues or pictures that seek to depict the likeness of any of Islam's revered figures - be they God's Prophets or the daughters, wives and companions of the Prophet of Islam or even Mary, aren't exactly "welcomed" by the Muslim community. I thought the whole "cartoon controversy" had made at least that much clear.

Indian Muslims are particulaly some of the strongest and most vocal opponents of the creation and/or worshipping of idols, statues or pictures that seek to depict the likeness of Islam's revered figures. I won't even dare you to try and tell me that these people would "enthusiastically recieve pilgrim virgin statues of Lady Fatima", because you can't. I know better than every single poser on this board and elsewhere who would claim otherwise because I am an Indian Muslim.

The Arabs thought they were honoring the daughter of Muhammad, which is what the Jesuits wanted them to believe.

I don't even know how that makes any sense, since it was Mary who gave the virgin-birth and NOT Lady Fatima as she was married to The Prophet's cousin brother Ali and gave birth to two sons, Hasan and Hussain, so HOW THE HELL did the Vatican conspirators "wanted them" to think of Lady Fatima as the virgin Mary when they are NOTHING alike is totally beyond me. And if I might add, despite the revered position of the daughter of the Prophet in Islam, she too holds absolutely no share in Divinity and is not worshipped by Muslims.

So TSOG, instead of simply "standing by" your proposed theory, why not be a sport and get cracking on an appropriately sufficient reply now, will ya? And please, no more of your asinine links, because in doing so, you come off as being just as gullible of being fed whatever crap your "sources" cook up for you as the masses you accuse of being manipulated by government-controlled media. As if you need your conspiracy theorists to think for you instead of doing that yourself.
Very informative, lucid and well thought out post:up: Its nice to know SOMEONE has their facts straight, and straight from the horses mouth as they say (no offense to Muslims as being akin to horses).
 
Four pages later an SUM still refuses to answer my posts... Its the 'Shocking Information about Oklahoma Bombing' Thread all over again.

I started to show an understanding of physics and chemistry, and discounted a huge chunck of the 'evidence' that the Bombing was set up and he ignored every single post.

If you feel the need to constantly spam the Hype with these threads SUM, have the balls to back up your claims... Other than calling us all brainwashed and narrow minded.

:down
 
pHat_aL said:
What was so shocking about the Oklahoma Bombing?

Some evidence That the bomb used didnt have the power to do the damage that it did and that it was really other bombs inside the building that did the damage.
 
The problem with this theory is that the RC church wasn't established as a denomination until about 800 AD, about 300 years after Islam was established.

Prior to that time, there was only the church.
 
^^ Dont let facts get in the way of a bad conspiracy.
 
Mentok said:
^^ Dont let facts get in the way of a bad conspiracy.

Bad conspiracies must be confronted.

Good conspiracies must be endured.
 
War Lord said:
The problem with this theory is that the RC church wasn't established as a denomination until about 800 AD, about 300 years after Islam was established.

Prior to that time, there was only the church.

But if you read Revelations, there John describe the many churches that already fallen ashtray to their own corrupted thinkings and high place, so you can be certain Roman Catholics did exist back then. The Bible was written 10,000 years before Qu'ran.
 
pHat_aL said:
But if you read Revelations, there John describe the many churches that already fallen ashtray to their own corrupted thinkings and high place, so you can be certain Roman Catholics did exist back then. The Bible was written 10,000 years before Qu'ran.

The earliest the Old Testament could have been written was about 1,500 B.C., because writing didn't exist before that time.

So 1,500 + 500 equals 2,000 years.
 
Phaser said:
So TSOG, instead of simply "standing by" your proposed theory, why not be a sport and get cracking on an appropriately sufficient reply now, will ya? And please, no more of your asinine links, because in doing so, you come off as being just as gullible of being fed whatever crap your "sources" cook up for you as the masses you accuse of being manipulated by government-controlled media. As if you need your conspiracy theorists to think for you instead of doing that yourself.

Phaser, I already responded to your previous post. Here's a recap: A) This isn't "MY" conspiracy theory, I don't "believe" in it, I simply posted it because, like others who have posted in this thread, I found it to be an interesting read, and B) you called me a "bigot" and a "racist" (among other things) for no other reason than you were too easily offended and immediately responded with name-calling and childish insults, so I don't see how I could reason with you on any level.
 
Mentok said:
Four pages later an SUM still refuses to answer my posts...

What posts? I think I answered most of the posts that were directly intended for me, maybe I missed yours. Post it again if it's so important to you, and maybe I'll get around to answering it.
 
TheSumOfGod said:
What posts? I think I answered most of the posts that were directly intended for me, maybe I missed yours. Post it again if it's so important to you, and maybe I'll get around to answering it.

:rolleyes: Wow, Gee mister... I hope you can find the time to back up your claims... After all, You created the thread. :o

Fine... Show me how he is a credible source after...

Dr. Alberto Magno Romero Rivera (1935 - 1997) was an anti-Catholic religious activist who was the source of many of fundamentalist Christian author Jack Chick's stories about the Vatican.

Rivera was born in Las Palmas, Gran Canaria, Canary Islands, Spain in 1935 and died of colon cancer in Broken Arrow, Oklahoma in 1997. Chick promised to promote Alberto's claims even after he died. Rivera claims to have been a Jesuit before becoming a Fundamentalist Protestant, and many of the stories Chick published about Rivera involve Jesuit conspiracies.

Rivera had a 'history of legal entanglements' including fraud, credit card theft, and writing bad cheques. Warrants had been issued for his arrest in New Jersey and Florida, and he was wanted by the Spanish police for 'swindles and cheats'; while in the USA in 1967, he claimed to be collecting money for a Spanish college which never received this money. The details of his claims changed - in 1964 he said he had left the Catholic Church in July 1952, but later put the date at March 20 1967; despite this, he was still promoting Catholicism in a newspaper interview of August that same year. Although supposedly placed in the sanitarium in 1965 and held there for three months, he gave the date of his release as September 1967, leaving a period of over a year unaccounted for. The document exhibited by Rivera to prove his status as a Catholic priest was fraudulently obtained and the Catholic Church deny his claims of having been a Jesuit priest or a bishop. He had only one sister in London who was not called Maria,was not a nun, and did not live in a convent. In an employment form of 1963 he claimed marriage to Carmen Lydia Torres, and the couple had two children in the USA when his own account had him a celibate priest in Spain.

and my other post...

According to Rivera, Jesuits are responsible for the recession, communism, Islam, Nazism, the World Wars, the Jonestown Massacre, and the assassination of Abraham Lincoln; he further claims that the Catholic Church wants to spread homosexuality and abortion, that the Charismatic Movement is a front for the Catholic Church, that the Popes are antichrists, that the Catholic Church is the ****e of Revelation, and that the Prophet Muhammad was used by the Catholic Church to create Islam and destroy the Jews and Christians.[/color]

The guy was a loonie :down end of story.

To which you replied...

Not really. I know of at least 80 million Americans who would disagree with you.

Thats not an answer... Thats the internet equivalent of going "Nah! Nah! Nah! Im not listening!"
 
Mentok said:

I never said that he was a "credible source", this is simply one man's testimony, which, unfortunately, can never be confirmed or denied since he died all of a sudden after a few attempts on his life (and even if he was still alive, it would still be just his word against the word of the Vatican).

What I really didn't like is how some of the Hype posters simply disregarded what he had to say on the grounds that he was a "former Jesuit priest". What the hell does it matter that he was a former Jesuit priest? A person's past or present religious faith does not discredit their testimony, not even if they're a Scientologist in dire need of Ritalin.
 
i would not be surprised if the vatican was also responsible for poverty and death...
 
I'm not going to blame the Vatican for everything (obviously), but after the Inquisition and the Crusades (not to mention the systematic destruction of every non-Christian, non-white culture in the New World, among other things), I can never give them the benefit of the doubt in any way or form ever again.
 
TheSumOfGod said:
I never said that he was a "credible source", this is simply one man's testimony, which, unfortunately, can never be confirmed or denied since he died all of a sudden after a few attempts on his life (and even if he was still alive, it would still be just his word against the word of the Vatican).

You expect us to believe it... Why would you not post a credible source?

The fact is, you want us to listen to the silly rantings of a convicted criminal. A man who was never a Jesuit Priest, a man who commited serious fraud, a man who made incredibly silly claims against the church.

What I really didn't like is how some of the Hype posters simply disregarded what he had to say on the grounds that he was a "former Jesuit priest". What the hell does it matter that he was a former Jesuit priest? A person's past or present religious faith does not discredit their testimony, not even if they're a Scientologist in dire need of Ritalin.

He was never a Jesuit priest, there is exactly ZERO evidence that he was. All he had were his claims.

Among his claims...

- Jesuits are responsible for the recession, communism, Islam, Nazism, the World Wars, the Jonestown Massacre and the assassination of Abraham Lincoln.

- Catholic Church wants to spread homosexuality and abortion, that the Charismatic Movement is a front for the Catholic Church, that the Popes are antichrists, that the Catholic Church is the ****e of Revelation, and that the Prophet Muhammad was used by the Catholic Church to create Islam and destroy the Jews and Christians.


Totally silly claims, none of which can be backed up other than with the claim that he knew about them.
 
Mentok (and all of the others like him), how many times am I gonna have to explain this to you? I DON'T "BELIEVE" in this story, in order to remain an objective researcher and an objective person in life, I CANNOT ALLOW MYSELF TO "BELIEVE" IN ANYTHING! Faith is the enemy of reason.

I simply posted this story because I found it to be an interesting read, regardless of credibility. You people blew this way out of proportion.
 

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