How would you describe Batman Returns?

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I actually do. I think its a mess, I think it's mean-spirited and boring, and It's more Burton than Batman.
 
Yes I think Batman Returns sucks. It's just another Burtonesque Artsy Gothic Freakshow toned film that Burton does every day. It bares little resemblence to Batman's world and has NONE of the spirit of it.

Batman 89 was at least able to be a decent interpretation of the Batman mythos... especially if it's compared to Kane's stories. Burton's look and feel of that movie was pretty spot on. But Returns was a lame movie, a macarbe Artsy Gothic Freakshow cluster**** that had some damned big plotholes, and two villains that had NOTHING in common with the characters they were based on other than a passing resembelence.
 
It's supposed to be more supernatural with Burton's universe. She's brought back to life by cats and becomes half cat, half woman.

No, she isn't supernatural, doesn't actually die, doesn't become half cat and doesn't really have 9 lives.

Because they chose Penguin and Catwoman not Two-Face. How's that an issue?
Warner Brothers wanted Penguin because they thought he was the next top villain on the list, and Burton wanted Catwoman because she is his second favorite Batman villain, so they compromised and included both and Burton came up with his own interpretation of the Penguin because the Penguin in the comics back then was just a silly little fat man in a tuxedo with a rainbow colored umbrella who committed bird themed crimes. Burton made him far more complex and interesting then he ever was in the comics.

Unfortunately, Burton doesn't really get Batman
Burton certainly does get Batman. Burton understands that Batman is a serious, dark and mysterious character and captured that very well.
 
Unfortunately, Burton doesn't really get Batman but he did re-introduce the darker version to mainstream audiences which is important.

How do you get that? Batman the Animated Series is beloved by fans and praised as the most accurate version of Batman and co. from the comics…do you realize that was directly inspired by Burton? Whilst I do feel he went a little too far with Batman Returns, his original film most certainly is Batman to a tee. The gothic and atmospheric feel of Bob Kane’s original concept’s something that even Nolan seems to have forgotten about, though not entirely. To deny that is to be ignorant.
 
How do you get that? Batman the Animated Series is beloved by fans and praised as the most accurate version of Batman and co. from the comics…do you realize that was directly inspired by Burton?

You are half right. The look and feel of Gotham City was definitley out of Tim Burton, mixing the 40s with the 90s... that was Burton. But the personalities, looks, and origins of the characters are definitley NOT Burton.

Well TAS Joker resembles Jack's Joker in origin... unrepentant gangster who takes on Batman at a chemical factory and gets an acid bath. And personally I like that origin of the Joker better than the "accepted origin" of the comics. I don't like seeing the Joker as a sympathetic character, so I'm glad Burton made that change and Timm and Co took the idea and ran with it.
 
You are half right. The look and feel of Gotham City was definitley out of Tim Burton, mixing the 40s with the 90s... that was Burton. But the personalities, looks, and origins of the characters are definitley NOT Burton.

Well TAS Joker resembles Jack's Joker in origin... unrepentant gangster who takes on Batman at a chemical factory and gets an acid bath. And personally I like that origin of the Joker better than the "accepted origin" of the comics. I don't like seeing the Joker as a sympathetic character, so I'm glad Burton made that change and Timm and Co took the idea and ran with it.

Well yah. Burton based his Bruce more from Bob Kane's original killer, whereas in BTAS he’s far more ethical. He's still dark and gothic though, especially for a supposed children’s cartoon. But then most (outside of the camp era) Batman's and Gothams are gothic to a (more or less) extent. Burton really only covered four major characters though and the main cast is much larger then that, so it‘s rather limiting. Personally I feel BTAS Joker is Killing Joke Joker and/or Jack’s with censors. It's all there…just not allowed to be so gratuitous. Penguin looked like Burtons throughout season 1-3, but personality matched the comics to a tee, whereas Burton almost entirely changed Penguin. Like or hate Nicholson, at least that Joker was fairly accurate. Burton Penguin’s almost an entirely new character, unworthy of the name.
 
Here's my try to give my opinion in this "Burton doesn't get Batman" matter.

MAN-------------------------BAT

I like to put different versions of Batman to a line like one at above. Batman is a man who has two minds in his head. There is a MAN. MAN is sane and heroic. He's Batman because he wants to help people.

There is also a BAT. BAT is insane and lethal creature of the night. He's Batman because he wants to punish criminals.

This is Tim Burton's vision: (X means Batman.)

MAN----------------------X--BAT

This is my ideal Batman:

MAN---------X---------------BAT

I don't like Tim Burton's Batman. That doesn't mean that his movies suck.
 
Here's my try to give my opinion in this "Burton doesn't get Batman" matter.

MAN-------------------------BAT

I like to put different versions of Batman to a line like one at above. Batman is a man who has two minds in his head. There is a MAN. MAN is sane and heroic. He's Batman because he wants to help people.

There is also a BAT. BAT is insane and lethal creature of the night. He's Batman because he wants to punish criminals.

This is Tim Burton's vision: (X means Batman.)

MAN----------------------X--BAT

This is my ideal Batman:

MAN---------X---------------BAT

I don't like Tim Burton's Batman. That doesn't mean that his movies suck.

In that case you mean Bob Kane's original vision of Batman, not Tim Burtons.
 
Penguin looked like Burtons throughout season 1-3, but personality matched the comics to a tee, whereas Burton almost entirely changed Penguin.

Ah no it didn't match the comics to a tee at all. Instead it significantly improved on the comics. This is where people begin to show their age. Prior to BTAS Penguin was nothing like he is portrayed in the comics today. He was a far more tacky and one dimensional character hence the need for the reinvention not just in Burton's movie but BTAS as well.

Burton Penguin’s almost an entirely new character, unworthy of the name.

It was still much more interesting then the alternative at the time which was the lame ass comics version.
 
In that case you mean Bob Kane's original vision of Batman, not Tim Burtons.

Nah what you mean to say is Bill Finger's vision of Batman. Bob Kane's original vision of Batman was a lameass blonde Superman clone dressed in circus colors.
 
Nah what you mean to say is Bill Finger's vision of Batman. Bob Kane's original vision of Batman was a lameass blonde Superman clone dressed in circus colors.

Well that's more his concept Batman then his original Batman, if you get my meaning. This really depends upon who you ask. Bill Finger and Bob Kane really made the Batman we know, but some claim Bob stole all the credit, some say otherwise. It’s the same thing with Lee and Kirby. No one will ever really know.
 
Ah no it didn't match the comics to a tee at all. Instead it significantly improved on the comics. This is where people begin to show their age. Prior to BTAS Penguin was nothing like he is portrayed in the comics today. He was a far more tacky and one dimensional character hence the need for the reinvention not just in Burton's movie but BTAS as well.

It was still much more interesting then the alternative at the time which was the lame ass comics version.

I’ve never really been a fan of the Penguin to begin with, particularly Burtons. I hated the crude, perverted, and disgusting character traits he had. So inaccurate that’s it actually the polar opposite of the established Penguin persona. I prefer the classier and sophisticated Oswald. So I can’t really agree, but that‘s just opinion. But to my knowledge, Animated Series Penguin’s much more like the comics then Burton’s in everything but appearance. Though I’ll be the first to confess I’m not a Penguin expert. I’ve never really cared enough to search out and read most of his stories. Personally I think modern Penguin‘s the best version, when he’s not actually a hand-dirty criminal, but rather more of a mob boss leader. The Kingpin of the Batman universe. That’s my preference.
 
I’ve never really been a fan of the Penguin to begin with, particularly Burtons. I hated the crude, perverted, and disgusting character traits he had. So inaccurate that’s it actually the polar opposite of the established Penguin persona. I prefer the classier and sophisticated Oswald. So I can’t really agree, but that‘s just opinion. But to my knowledge, Animated Series Penguin’s much more like the comics then Burton’s in everything but appearance. Though I’ll be the first to confess I’m not a Penguin expert. I’ve never really cared enough to search out and read most of his stories. Personally I think modern Penguin‘s the best version, when he’s not actually a hand-dirty criminal, but rather more of a mob boss leader. The Kingpin of the Batman universe. That’s my preference.

He was an obnoxious crook with bird themed crimes on the mind and gimmick umbrellas in his arsenal for the longest time. Not even the great Alan Grant the very few times he dealt with the characted could make him tolerable during the late 80's early 90's period of Batman comics. I don't remember even enjoying the character till Bob Gale's No Man's Land arc from the late 90's and his demeanore there and comics from the mid 90's on in general was much more akin to TAS. You could see the influence that particular take had on the comics and it was for the better. That's the one you say you prefer and I believe it applies to every batfan cause I can't think of anybody who genuinely likes the original comics penguin.
 
I think Jett from BOF is pretty much able to get down my thoughts on Batman Returns from his review and his blog.

And now I'm done commenting on Returns because I've just enterted complaining territory with this post.;)
 
Ummm...ok, another stupid thread...walking out of thread...
 
well... here I am.

Me too. I am a fan of the present comics Penguin, the BTAS version and the original comic relief version. I really don't get this negative attitude against the originsl, I csn only surmise it's just a matter of taste.
As to Batman Returns, I didn't care for Burton's Penguin. The movie itself didn't suck, but I do feel it is highly overrated by some fans who ascribe a depth to it that I don't feel is warranted.
 
Do you honestly think that Year One Gordon is the only character design Jim Gordon has had in his 60+ years in creation?


Gordon1955.jpg



Do you also criticize Heath Ledger's Joker for having long greasy hair, cut smile, and sloppily applied make up? Because comic book Joker never had that, and you seem to be an extreme stickler for staying true to the comics.

Well Pat Hingle doesn't have white hair does he? And why do smart asses like you get mad at me for criticizing a Batman movie? Do you honestly believe that Batman directors can do no wrong? And before you respond I'd just like to say Nolan did wrong by choosing Katie Holmes and Maggie Gyllenhaal as his leading ladies.
 
Katie Holmes was a weakest (major) link in Batman Begins, fact. Maggie Gyllenhaal, well, I really liked her performance. "She sucked. She wasn't hot." Who says that women are supposed to be hot?

Also, we don't get mad at you because you're critizing a Batman movie. We just think that your reasons of hating Batman Returns are lame.
 
Well Pat Hingle doesn't have white hair does he? And why do smart asses like you get mad at me for criticizing a Batman movie? Do you honestly believe that Batman directors can do no wrong? And before you respond I'd just like to say Nolan did wrong by choosing Katie Holmes and Maggie Gyllenhaal as his leading ladies.

The reasons that you give us are biased on a simple point of view. You are not analizing the movie, you are just giving critics without a solid foundation.
 
He was an obnoxious crook with bird themed crimes on the mind and gimmick umbrellas in his arsenal for the longest time. Not even the great Alan Grant the very few times he dealt with the characted could make him tolerable during the late 80's early 90's period of Batman comics. I don't remember even enjoying the character till Bob Gale's No Man's Land arc from the late 90's and his demeanore there and comics from the mid 90's on in general was much more akin to TAS. You could see the influence that particular take had on the comics and it was for the better. That's the one you say you prefer and I believe it applies to every batfan cause I can't think of anybody who genuinely likes the original comics penguin.

Yah I'm with yah there man. Penguin's pretty much just always been...I don't even quite know how to put it. Extremely lame doesn't really convey it. I never got this sense that he was particularly anything. Not especially intelligent or dangerous to someone like Batman. Not unintelligent or harmless by any means, but nothing to really write home about. Nothing that really put him on the map in some significant way. He was always second bananas at his very best, but usually even lesser. He doesn’t even look threatening. That’s one thing that I feel Burton added; Appearance. He was made frightening, though still not necessarily conveying a physical threat to much of anyone. I mean, he’s a short and stocky man that resembles a cute flightless bird. The horror! Pssh! At least Burton made him horrific looking.

I can give him a level of respect for the sheer amount of years he’s been in the mythos, but like we’ve said, I never really started to enjoy him until "No Mans Land". He’s a much better behind-the-scenes villain then he is a hands-on kind of nemesis. I do enjoy some umbrella action here and there though.
 
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also, catwoman was just plain hot, and the contrast between the beatutiful deadly catwoman and the gross uglyass penguin is pretty cool actually, i love the contrast. and keaton IMO did batman better in this one then in B89. damn defending this film is like defending the new indiana jones film.

btw, found this pic and i love it haha



By far the best part of Batman Returns. She’s really the only reason why I watch it. Her origin’s changed, though I’m trying to think if she actually has one definitive origin, but otherwise she’s very accurate a caricature. Watching her battle Batman on that gorgeous rooftop seemed straight from the comics. Her whip play was incredible too. She’d give Indy a run for his money.
 
No, she isn't supernatural, doesn't actually die, doesn't become half cat and doesn't really have 9 lives.

Well, I must be mistaken because the version I saw, she fell to her death. Cats brought her back to life. Throughout the film she got shot, choked and fell from great heights but survived. So all these things were luck escapes and coincidences? The intention of Burton was pretty obvious. She was a normal woman who, after a supernatural event, became Catwoman. It was never explicit but was certainly there.

Warner Brothers wanted Penguin because they thought he was the next top villain on the list, and Burton wanted Catwoman because she is his second favorite Batman villain, so they compromised and included both and Burton came up with his own interpretation of the Penguin because the Penguin in the comics back then was just a silly little fat man in a tuxedo with a rainbow colored umbrella who committed bird themed crimes. Burton made him far more complex and interesting then he ever was in the comics.

I don't really care for the Penguin as a character. I find it kind of forced that a guy who is born with a Penguin deformation just happens to be raised by Penguins as well.

Burton certainly does get Batman. Burton understands that Batman is a serious, dark and mysterious character and captured that very well.

He certainly understands those aspects. But Batman is more than a serious, dark man of mystery. He's determined. He won't sit around waiting for the bat signal every night. He will be out fighting crime regardless. He won't sit back and kill people in his Batmobile, burning them alive or gunning them down with machine guns. See any of TAS, BB or TDK for a closer interpretation.

I don't mind BR for what it is. It is much better than BF and B & R. It's a decent Burton film. But after seeing countless Burton films with the twisted fairytale theme and Danny Elfman music, I see BR as just another of the films he wants to make. He didn't set out to make a faithful adaptation of the comics. This is a movie he wanted to make with Batman inserted as the main hero.

What I like about BR, and always did, was the idea of having a Bat, Cat, and Penguin as the main villains. What a great marketing idea. A great idea for story themes as well. Then Burton made it about damaged orphans. Another smart move! Then...Penguin runs for Mayor. Ok...Then the bad guys frame Batman...no, that's crap.

That's the problem. The whole film has great themes but a lousy story and mostly lackluster action too. I find it catastrophic that Gotham would think Batman would just randomly kidnap and murder someone. The guy who always saves the day and vanishes, all of a sudden kills an innocent person and leaves the murder weapon. How will Gordon solve this shocking crime?! AWFUL. No matter how much of a following BR has, there is not one person who could tell me this is a great idea for a story.

Penguin as mob boss. A great idea? Political satire? Perhaps the Penguin represents every candidate, preened into power? Perhaps. But I think, again, the writing has let a potentially wonderful idea down. I don't buy that the people of Gotham would suddenly love this disgusting monster from the sewers. Is this the same place from B89? Nope. It feels like some weird Burton film...because IT IS.

Burton makes these kinds of films. Weird, twisted fairytales with supernatural themes. That's his thing. He made BR one of his many twisted films and made it somewhat interesting but it is not a Batman story.
 

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