Human Condition

[JLBats]

Ugh, Moviefan never answers me when I bring up the idea of his own religious certainty being equal to every other person who is sort of their own, different religion.

 

[Carcharodon]

I don't believe that anything is random. The belief that things are random leaves the option of us not having any purpose at all.:3

...and?

What's so terrible about that? This is why I can't get over this line of reasoning: it's completely asinine. Why do we HAVE to have a purpose? Why is that necessary?

Why can't we simply exist, and ENJOY it?

I don't need to inflate my ego by assuming I have some divine purpose in order to live a fulfilling life. If anything, the idea that I am the result of probability and outcome is humbling and, in a strange sense, comforting.

Though I suppose that point of view is as strange to you as your point is view is to me.

 

[Moviefan2k4]

Ugh, Moviefan never answers me when I bring up the idea of his own religious certainty being equal to every other person who is sort of their own, different religion.

How's this for an answer? I don't believe that other religions are equal in truth to Christianity at all. People may be certain of what they choose to believe, but in the end there's only one truth, and I believe God as described in the Bible is it. If I'm wrong, then there's nothing after this life, and so I have nothing to fear. But if the Bible is really the one viable truth, then millions of people who reject God might want to reconsider their position.

 

[JLBats]

And if the KORAN is the one viable truth, or the Vedas and Upanishads, or any of the other religious texts, then maybe you, who reject THAT God, might want to reconsider YOUR position.

But you'll never know for sure. And neither will the non-believers. So how can anyone know whether or not to "reconsider" anything?

 

[BlackLantern]

so what about faiths that were around prior to Christianity....? My issue is that most faiths today are jockeying to be "right"....but no one can truly say they are the "correct" faith

 

[Moviefan2k4]

What's so terrible about that? Why do we HAVE to have a purpose? Why is that necessary?

Well, from a natural standpoint, look at a tree. They have more than one purpose than simply standing tall, and they are far less advanced physically than we are. So, the more appropriate question would be, "Why wouldn't we have a greater purpose beyond ourselves?" To think we simply exist for our own whims is to place humanity on a godlike pedestal, and thereby saying we're accountable to no one else. Considering how many of us have died for worthless causes over the last few millennia, I'm not very comfortable with that notion. By suggesting we have no purpose, you're then raising the question of, "How do we determine right from wrong?" The humanistic response to that would likely be, "Everyone determines their own morality, and there is no absolute". If that were true, then why does nearly every person in the world consider murder to be wrong? It has to be more than a global coincidence.

 

[JLBats]

Moviefan, I understand. You're scared, scared of acknowledging that you don't have all the answers, scared of being galactically alone. But I'm here to tell you; it's okay. Let a more personal, euphoric search for God take hold. Free yourself from previous judgmental dogma! And I'll be here for you as you embark upon this journey.

 

[BlackLantern]

Well, from a natural standpoint, look at a tree. They have more than one purpose than simply standing tall, and they are far less advanced physically than we are. So, the more appropriate question would be, "Why wouldn't we have a greater purpose beyond ourselves?" To think we simply exist for our own whims is to place humanity on a godlike pedestal, and thereby saying we're accountable to no one else. Considering how many of us have died for worthless causes over the last few millennia, I'm not very comfortable with that notion. By suggesting we have no purpose, you're then raising the question of, "How do we determine right from wrong?" The humanistic response to that would likely be, "Everyone determines their own morality, and there is no absolute". If that were true, then why does nearly every person in the world consider murder to be wrong? It has to be more than a global coincidence.

I think it does the opposite....it makes us no better than that tree.....I think there are paths that we can choose to walk down....some choose religion, some choose pain, some choose nothingness.....l

 

[The Senator]

Well, from a natural standpoint, look at a tree. They have more than one purpose than simply standing tall, and they are far less advanced physically than we are. So, the more appropriate question would be, "Why wouldn't we have a greater purpose beyond ourselves?" To think we simply exist for our own whims is to place humanity on a godlike pedestal, and thereby saying we're accountable to no one else. Considering how many of us have died for worthless causes over the last few millennia, I'm not very comfortable with that notion. By suggesting we have no purpose, you're then raising the question of, "How do we determine right from wrong?" The humanistic response to that would likely be, "Everyone determines their own morality, and there is no absolute". If that were true, then why does nearly every person in the world consider murder to be wrong? It has to be more than a global coincidence.

It's simple, really: Humanity came to exist, we exist, we die. End of story. There is no higher purpose for us other than to be. The reason why we have created the idea of an afterlife or a divine plan is because we, on the whole, are unable to face the idea that our lives are not eternal. We are unable to face the fact that our time here is finite, that once we die, that's it-- there's no coming back, there are no second chances, game over.

So we created this wonderful fantasy land where we can go if we lived a good life, made good decisions, and believed in an all-powerful yet fatally flawed power. Voila-- heaven exists, and now there is no reason to hone up to our own responsibilities. We don't need to admit that cancer will kill us-- it's only sending us to a better place. All those debts of ours? In heaven, there are no debts, so there's no need to pay them back on earth. All those people we disagree with? Meh, they don't believe in God, they won't be in heaven to disagree with us, so there's no reason to see their point of view or not inject my beliefs on them.

To address your claims about murder:

Maybe we have come to consider murder to be morally wrong because of all the pain and suffering such an act causes to more than just the victim? Maybe we realize that it isn't our place to end someone's life. After all, we wouldn't like it if someone came along and put a gun to our heads, cutting short a life filled with many hopes and promises. We as a species have come to learn what constitutes civilized behavior. We didn't learn it through God or some other magical power; someone used their own deductive, philosophical skills and said, "gee, maybe I shouldn't kill this guy; I know I wouldn't like it."

And, on top of that, not everyone agrees that murder is morally wrong. So how do you vouch for that minority? What about the cultures which still engage in cannibalism? What about the numerous countries which go to war and murder innocent civilians (like our very own)? What about the numerous countries which still execute people for the crimes they've committed (like our very own)? How does that tell you that murder is universally considered unacceptable, when there are even people of your own faith who think that people should be murdered for committing crimes-- even non-violent crimes such as child molestation?

 

[The Senator]

I would also like to point out that this new color scheme makes me want to vomit rainbows.

 

[JLBats]

It's very classic but it also reminds me that some things sucked major ass in the old days too.

The other skin is cool but scaaary

 

[BlackLantern]

I use the dynamite skin....it makes me feel edgy....

 

[Moviefan2k4]

After all, we wouldn't like it if someone came along and put a gun to our heads, cutting short a life filled with many hopes and promises.

Hopes and promises for what; continued existence, with no other purpose in mind other than existence itself? I don't know about any of you, but I believe that God created humanity, and that He designed us to fill a much broader and important purpose than simply doing whatever we feel like at any given time. The idea of humanity being no more important than a tree or animal is incomprehensible to me. I refuse to believe that we as a race have no higher calling.

 

[JLBats]

I refuse to believe that we as a race have no higher calling.

Then it's your own refusal. Doesn't bring it any closer to truth. *shrug*

I often like the idea. Because if nothing we do matters, then the only thing that matters is what we do, ya dig?

 

[Carcharodon]

By suggesting we have no purpose, you're then raising the question of, "How do we determine right from wrong?" The humanistic response to that would likely be, "Everyone determines their own morality, and there is no absolute". If that were true, then why does nearly every person in the world consider murder to be wrong? It has to be more than a global coincidence.

The answer is simple: I don't want to be murdered. What better way to prevent that from happening than to create a law forbidding it?

If somebody kills another human being, it frightens people, because they become painfully aware of their own mortality. They don't like it when somebody murders because that means that they could be next. It's actually much simpler (and of selfish origin) than Jmanspice suggests.

This really isn't that hard, dude. Just use your brain.

 

[Moviefan2k4]

Then it's your own refusal. Doesn't bring it any closer to truth.

And with that, you've just called the majority of people on this planet liars, because most folks believe their life has an enduring purpose of some sort.

...if nothing we do matters, then the only thing that matters is what we do...

That's a huge contradiction in terms, in and of itself.

 

[The Senator]

Hopes and promises for what; continued existence, with no other purpose in mind other than existence itself? I don't know about any of you, but I believe that God created humanity, and that He designed us to fill a much broader and important purpose than simply doing whatever we feel like at any given time. The idea of humanity being no more important than a tree or animal is incomprehensible to me. I refuse to believe that we as a race have no higher calling.

Well, I hope to be a politician of some sort so I can try to help this country... that's what I see my higher purpose as, and it is up to the decisions I make as to whether I'll get there or not... I think our hopes and promises are what we feel as though our lives should be, in the long run... nothing more, nothing less...

 

[Moviefan2k4]

The answer is simple: I don't want to be murdered. What better way to prevent that from happening than to create a law forbidding it?

If somebody kills another human being, it frightens people, because they become painfully aware of their own mortality. They don't like it when somebody murders because that means that they could be next. It's actually much simpler (and of selfish origin) than Jmanspice suggests.

This really isn't that hard, dude. Just use your brain.

It has to be more than that, because if everyone were really so frightened, then no one would ever deliberately murder anyone else. Any way you slice it, the cause of our morality has to come from somewhere besides collective human intelligence.

 

[JLBats]

And with that, you've just called the majority of people on this planet liars, because most folks believe their life has an enduring purpose of some sort.

And hopefully the vast majority of them aren't as sanctimonious and judgmental and EVILLY certain of their convictions as you are

That's a huge contradiction in terms, in and of itself.

That's the point. It's WORDPLAY
From an episode of Angel, but I've found a lot of wisdom in it over the years.
It basically means that if there is no greater meaning to all of it, if there is no grand plan or enduring purpose, then the smallest act of kindness is the most important thing in the world, because it's ALL THERE IS.

It's about living moment to moment appreciating the small kindnesses, and it's a powerful argument against the moral vacuum that you seem to think is created by atheism.

 

[The Senator]

And with that, you've just called the majority of people on this planet liars, because most folks believe their life has an enduring purpose of some sort.

Everybody lies. [/house]

 

[JLBats]

It has to be more than that, because if everyone were really so frightened, then no one would ever deliberately murder anyone else. Any way you slice it, the cause of our morality has to come from somewhere besides collective human intelligence.

There's a reason there are so many disparities between cultures in terms of right and wrong.

Wilhelm used to use the little example of how in certain African tribes, mothers would perform oral sex upon a crying baby to get it to calm down. Now, to us, that seems wholly barbaric. To them, standing there and leaving a baby to cry without comforting it in that way is the REAL barbarism.

But if you are still blind to the wide differences in the moral thermometers of multiple cultures, well, man, I dunno what to say

It's not just Godsent and hardwired.

 

[Carcharodon]

It has to be more than that, because if everyone were really so frightened, then no one would ever deliberately murder anyone else. Any way you slice it, the cause of our morality has to come from somewhere besides collective human intelligence.

You're right and wrong.

Humans are not rational as a species. A person can be rational. People generally aren't.

Not everyone is frightened by death. Not everyone considers the ramifications of their actions. Some people just don't care. THAT is why murder still occurs.

Morality doesn't come from human intelligence. It doesn't come from God. It doesn't come from some perverted sense of altruism.

It relies entirely on the notion that if so-called "immoral" acts are allowed to occur, then everybody is at risk themselves.

Your "logic" holds no weight. Sorry.

 

[Moviefan2k4]

From an episode of Angel, but I've found a lot of wisdom in it over the years.
It basically means that if there is no greater meaning to all of it, if there is no grand plan or enduring purpose, then the smallest act of kindness is the most important thing in the world, because it's ALL THERE IS.

Joss Whedon is not only a professed atheist, but he's even gone so far as to say the world would be better off if everyone rejected God. I have next to no patience for him anymore. I know God still does, but I've lost any small respect I had left for Mr. Whedon or his work.

 

[JLBats]

Joss Whedon is not only a professed atheist, but he's even gone so far as to say the world would be better off if everyone rejected God. I have next to no patience for him anymore. I know God still does, but I've lost any small respect I had left for Mr. Whedon or his work.

So again, you instantly reject it because his opinion is... different... from yours?

Also, you have adressed absolutely nothing I've said. Thanks.

 

[Carcharodon]

Joss Whedon is not only a professed atheist, but he's even gone so far as to say the world would be better off if everyone rejected God. I have next to no patience for him anymore. I know God still does, but I've lost any small respect I had left for Mr. Whedon or his work.

And I'm sure he cries himself to sleep over it every single night.