I Am Doom....discuss me [merged-2]

[TheSaintofKillers]

are there any trade paperbacks of DOOM 2009 available?

No, but check on ebay. I was able to get them there, someone had the whole Warren Ellis run in the same bargain, for a pretty cheap price.

Or try milehighcomics, or the program Emule. No trade, but there is no real reason to wait for one of them. Oh, and jump most of the serie, read only Ellis' run (issue 26 to 39. Don't read after that, it's horrible junk, heh).

 

[Lightning Strykez!]

Just asking for now...I'll state my point later. I've got to go into a meeting for a while. But I'll return.

 

[TheSaintofKillers]

Just asking for now...I'll state my point later. I've got to go into a meeting for a while. But I'll return.

Waiting, then.

 

[Head>On<Collider]

I don't think there will be a sequel.

Ouch.

 

[Lightning Strykez!]

Actually, it is not just NOT what we wanted, it's EVERYTHING we never wanted, all in the same package. It's like the worst nightmare brought to the big screen to us.

It's our Batman and robin movie, but worse, since we aren't getting a new Doom movie (and relaunch) every 4 years like the dark knight.

This movie was our only hope of seeing a faithful Doom brough to the big screen (or at LEAST parts of it). Now, we'll have to either wait for the sequel for a slightly more faithful adaption, or 30 years before finally having Doom in all of his glory on the big screen.

So, of course we are hopping mad.

Doom got screwed.

*sigh*

This is where the problem lies.

This is not the Dr. Doom movie...it's the Fantastic Four film. Now while I would've liked some things done differently with Doom, the fact is, the audiences' attention will be focused on falling in love with the F4--not their nemesis. He has been altered to become a more worthy foe in this ORIGIN film. Such changes likely would not have been the case if this had started out with everything existing as is. But it's not.

That said, some of you are looking for this grandiose, fleshed out Dr. Doom film here, and it's just NOT going to happen this time. And even if every detail were preserved, you'd still be b1tching because the lion's share of the film's focus would still be on the F4 and not on the monarch.

Dr. Doom needs his own spin-off movie to get into the depth you guys are wishing for. Hell, we can't get into all of the FF's stuff deep enough, and yet you're griping about their enemy? Sorry...but this is not his movie. Some of these hopes are simply unrealistic.

 

[TheSaintofKillers]

*sigh*

This is where the problem lies.

This is not the Dr. Doom movie...it's the Fantastic Four film. Now while I would've liked some things done differently with Doom, the fact is, the audiences' attention will be focused on falling in love with the F4--not their nemesis. He has been altered to become a more worthy foe in this ORIGIN film. Such changes likely would not have been the case if this had started out with everything existing as is. But it's not.

That said, some of you are looking for this grandiose, fleshed out Dr. Doom film here, and it's just NOT going to happen this time. And even if every detail were preserved, you'd still be b1tching because the lion's share of the film's focus would still be on the F4 and not on the monarch.

Dr. Doom needs his own spin-off movie to get into the depth you guys are wishing for. Hell, we can't get into all of the FF's stuff deep enough, and yet you're griping about their enemy? Sorry...but this is not his movie. Some of these hopes are simply unrealistic.

I don't agree there, Lightning. All they would have needed to change for ME to forgive most of their changes, would have been for them to make Doom a supergenius, just as much as Reed.

They didn't even do THAT.

What's the core of Doom ? What are the TWO forces driving him, making him the great villain he is ?

His will, and his mind. That has nothing to do with an origin movie. They could have incorporated both of those in that businessman origin story. Easily.

They didn't.

My hopes AREN'T unrealistic. My true hopes would have been a grandiose Doom on screen, but since last year, I knew that wouldn't happen.

All I was asking was for Doom to be as much of a genius as Reed is, in the scientific realm.

That's... all. I mean, how HARD IS THAT ??? HOW UNREALISTIC IS THAT ???

It's so simple it's frustrating. It's not like putting Doom's core personality in there was something hard. It was SO EASY to fix. So easy.

Yet they didn't.

 

[Vartha]

I can only see a TV Movie if they did a Doom movie. For that matter you could do a mini series and cover A LOT of just Doom's past.

 

[Lightning Strykez!]

I don't agree there, Lightning. All they would have needed to change for ME to forgive most of their changes, would have been for them to make Doom a supergenius, just as much as Reed.

They didn't even do THAT.

What's the core of Doom ? What are the TWO forces driving him, making him the great villain he is ?

His will, and his mind. That has nothing to do with an origin movie. They could have incorporated both of those in that businessman origin story. Easily.

They didn't.

My hopes AREN'T unrealistic. My true hopes would have been a grandiose Doom on screen, but since last year, I knew that wouldn't happen.

All I was asking was for Doom to be as much of a genius as Reed is, in the scientific realm.

That's... all. I mean, how HARD IS THAT ??? HOW UNREALISTIC IS THAT ???

It's so simple it's frustrating. It's not like putting Doom's core personality in there was something hard. It was SO EASY to fix. So easy.

Yet they didn't.

I honestly don't believe that Marvel would let their premiere villain be "lost" on screen, when they've assured that other signature villains like the Goblin and Magneto have been preserved. Considering that they are working with the same studio teams and developers I honestly think you are jumping to major conclusions...but I'll let July 8th answer for itself.

 

[TheSaintofKillers]

I honestly don't believe that Marvel would let their premiere villain be "lost" on screen, when they've assured that other signature villains like the Goblin and Magneto have been preserved. Considering that they are working with the same studio teams and developers I honestly think you are jumping to major conclusions...but I'll let July 8th answer for itself.

Well, they have. You read the script. You should know better than most people that they missed the mark on Doom's character.

I don't know why you still think things will magically get better for Doom's character.

Marvel have made crap in the past, and missed the mark often. I don't see how accepting they missed it again with Doom is so hard to acknowledge.

 

[Dragon]

I honestly don't believe that Marvel would let their premiere villain be "lost" on screen, when they've assured that other signature villains like the Goblin and Magneto have been preserved. Considering that they are working with the same studio teams and developers I honestly think you are jumping to major conclusions...but I'll let July 8th answer for itself.

But "Marvel" is not of one mind when it comes to making these films. And unfortunately the one in charge of this whole thing, Avi Arad, despite his posturing as one who understands the characters doesn't get it. He doesn't get the characters, doesn't get their history and doesn't get how films are made well. He's a salesman and nothing more. I maintain that with Spidey and X-men, they got lucky.

 

[Tony Stark]

We've been having similar discussions over on the Spider-Man boards about similar things, with Doc Ock.

I think fans need to be more open minded when it comes to this stuff. It's funny that some fans expect to see the comic book frame for frame up on the screen.

Personally I think it's more important to capture the overall spirit of the comics and characters. With the example of Doc Ock, while the origin may be slightly different, when he's there with the tentacles on, he is the Doc Ock from the comics.

Seeing some of the pre-production documentaries on Doom a couple of things are clear.

1) Doom is somewhat of a combination of Namor and Doom. The love triangle with Reed, Sue and Victor is taken directly from Namor.

2) The origin change, I believe was to basically tell one origin of all the characters, rather than one origin for 4 of the cast and one seperate one for Victor.

3) It's clear from the documentaries that Victor's transformation to Dr. Doom is slow and takes place over the entire film. We see his body being disfigured by the metal slowly over the course of the film, and when he dawns the mask we know there's still changes occuring.

What matters most to me, is when he dons the mask is he Dr. Doom at that moment. If he's not doom at that point, then the movie will be considered a failure. Though the journey to get there may be different, the end result must be the same.

 

[Lightning Strykez!]

Well, they have. You read the script. You should know better than most people that they missed the mark on Doom's character.

I don't know why you still think things will magically get better for Doom's character.

Marvel have made crap in the past, and missed the mark often. I don't see how accepting they missed it again with Doom is so hard to acknowledge.

"Magically" get better? Who said I thought it was worse? Unlike some of my purist peers I recognize that this film is not being made strictly for me...but to open the public's eyes and draw them into the FF world.

That said, I know with something called an ADAPTATION changes will be made. Would I have preferred Classic Doom? A resounding yes, without hesitation. But this Doom will obviously appeal to a huge demographic which ensures bigger success, and more creative freedom to do things differently in the sequel.

So no, I'm not going to write off this version of Doom as imperfect until I see him in fluid action on screen. That takes patience on my part, and that's something that some here simply do not have. On July 9th I'll let you know my stand on Doom's adaptation--but I'm not so presumptuous to dismiss it before seeing it. I've followed too many of these productions to know that things often turn out much differently on screen than on paper.

 

[Lightning Strykez!]

But "Marvel" is not of one mind when it comes to making these films. And unfortunately the one in charge of this whole thing, Avi Arad, despite his posturing as one who understands the characters doesn't get it. He doesn't get the characters, doesn't get their history and doesn't get how films are made well. He's a salesman and nothing more. I maintain that with Spidey and X-men, they got lucky.

Bah! That's your opinion. Unless you know Avi, how can you interpret his motives? I disagree wholeheartedly. If it weren't for Avi's passions, Marvel wouldn't be dominating this cinematic genre now. He is responsible for many strikes of genius and successful franchises.

Ya know, folks b1tched about a Too-Tall Hugh Jackman...a Too-Old Magneto...an organic Spider-Man, blaa, blaa, blaaaaaaaaaa. And those castings and decisions (among many more) worked out well because Avi understands not only business, but what people want to see on screen.

 

[Dragon]

"Magically" get better? Who said I thought it was worse? Unlike some of my purist peers I recognize that this film is not being made strictly for me...but to open the public's eyes and draw them into the FF world.

You know what? This argument is a total crock. Why wouldn't the public get Doom being a dictator and threat to world peace? We're in Iraq for those very reasons (Even though like Doom those reasons are fictional).

So why does watering Doom down and merely making him a rip-off of other characters make this film for the public?

 

[Dragon]

Bah! That's your opinion. Unless you know Avi, how can you interpret his motives? I disagree wholeheartedly. If it weren't for Avi's passions, Marvel wouldn't be dominating this cinematic genre now. He is responsible for many strikes of genius and successful franchises.

Dominating? Most of their films have been flops. And it's fairly easy to understand Arad's motivations. Money. That's why he hires peole like Ang Lee. Because he figures that his name will lend some credibility to the film, even though he's completely wrong for the project. He hires the likes of Tim Story because he made A FILM that made money and intially intended the FF to be a comedy.

Ya know, folks b1tched about a Too-Tall Hugh Jackman...a Too-Old Magneto...an organic Spider-Man, blaa, blaa, blaaaaaaaaaa. And those castings and decisions (among many more) worked out well because Avi understands not only business, but what people want to see on screen.

Avi didn't make those casting decisions. Singer and Raimi did. In fact, he didn't even hire Raimi and Singer. Thank God. It was after the success of X-men and Spidey that he started throwing his weight around, and that's exactly when Marvel adaptations started going down the tubes.

 

[Lightning Strykez!]

You know what? This argument is a total crock. Why wouldn't the public get Doom being a dictator and threat to world peace? We're in Iraq for those very reasons (Even though like Doom those reasons are fictional).

So why does watering Doom down and merely making him a rip-off of other characters make this film for the public?

Again--HOW DO YOU KNOW????

God damn, some of this crystal-ball gazing is so freaking annoying. I mean, for Christ sakes, these arguements are so premature, we can't even substantiate how the film will portray Doom because we haven't freaking seen it.

You don't know if he's watered down.

You don't know if he's going to be a dictator or not.

In essence, you are judging Julian McMahon's ENTIRE performance based on what you've "read" and a few clips from trailers. How objective is that?

 

[Lightning Strykez!]

Dominating? Most of their films have been flops. And it's fairly easy to understand Arad's motivations. Money. That's why he hires peole like Ang Lee. Because he figures that his name will lend some credibility to the film, even though he's completely wrong for the project. He hires the likes of Tim Story because he made A FILM that made money and intially intended the FF to be a comedy.

Flops? Elektra, Punisher, DareDevil, and Blade are the least successful of the Marvel films, but they are based on B and C-List characters. Considering those variables and their MPAA ratings, I'd hardly consider them flops...they were never popular to begin with, so their audiences were limited. At least Avi has the guts to strike out there with lesser known properties than say DC/Warner Bros. which continue to rehash Supes and Bats, over and over and over and over and over again.

But in the comic book film genre--YES they are dominating indeed.

Avi didn't make those casting decisions. Singer and Raimi did. In fact, he didn't even hire Raimi and Singer. Thank God. It was after the success of X-men and Spidey that he started throwing his weight around, and that's exactly when Marvel adaptations started going down the tubes.

Are you sure about that? That's not what I've read.

 

[Head>On<Collider]

I have thought about this and I have come to this conclusion.Doom's movie origin is 10 times better than his comic book origin.

Do you know what constitutes a conclusion? Facts, evidence, materials, and especially figures. July 8th will determine whether the quality of Doom's origins will warrant this movie being spoken of as having a great villain helming the role as F4's arch-nemesis. It will NOT prove or disprove to anyone out there who doesn't know any better which of the two versions is better than the other. What's unfortunate about this is that no one will ever have the fair opportunity outside of the comic book literate or these kinds of forums to have an even slightest clue about the way Doom was originally intended to be.... now if you PREFER this version of Doom over Doom's original storyline, that's one thing, but even so, making such a claim that this movie version of Doom is better in any way, shape or form than the comic version is warrants an easy dispute.

I hear some crying and complaining that it isn't faithful but faithful does not always great. His comic book origin is not believable, ridiculous, and unrealistic. His movie origin is believable and much better in the sense that he has a closer connection to the Fantasatic Four and a BETTER reason for being Doctor Doom. Does anyone else feel the same as me?

I love the way people describe the rightful indignation given to this treatment of alot of people's favorite Marvel villain as crying, whining, complaining, etc. To make things even more ludicrous is the idea that anyone is to expect people who have been familiar with a character that has captivated thousands of fans in a way it has to be accepting of the way this character has been prevented from making it to the big screen, when so many people wanted him on there, presented in a cinematic fashion. Instead, those people get told things like, "get over it, be happy we're getting a F4 movie! Be happy we're getting Doom (yet it really isn't Doom at all)....." Even worse is trying to make sense and defend what clearly is a compromise. To repeat myselrf again and again and again.... I'm the consumer, Fox and Marvel works for me therefore.... I'm not happy, I will complain. Come July 8th am I gonna be alone? Well, we;ll just see right? In the meantime, don't be too surprised to see more and more people noticing the HACK JOB they did with this charater. You even noticed it, even though you prefer it. That's the crux of it.... you're happy about it, and that's fine, but expect alot of views to not only disagree with yours Red, but really be of the mindset that they ruined a good thing here.

 

[Union Jack]

didn't read all the way through this thread...but...this movie version of doctor dooms beginnings is a bit like the ultimate version of the FF,doom was involved with them and got changed through the experiment with the N zone,he also turned to metal much like the movie,so it does parallel with a version of the comics...besides at least he isnt called van damme like in the Ult FF comics!!

 

[Union Jack]

it kinda mixes up the origin stories of the ult FF and the 616 FF...to a good degree....i have no quarrel with the origin storyline at all!

 

[Head>On<Collider]

didn't read all the way through this thread...but...this movie version of doctor dooms beginnings is a bit like the ultimate version of the FF,doom was involved with them and got changed through the experiment with the N zone,he also turned to metal much like the movie,so it does parallel with a version of the comics...besides at least he isnt called van damme like in the Ult FF comics!!

Yep. good call there Jack.... This movie Doom is as much of an Ultimate F4 nod as it gets.... I personally hate it, but some around here are fine with it, and that's cool.

 

[Dragon]

Flops? Elektra, Punisher, DareDevil, and Blade are the least successful of the Marvel films, but they are based on B and C-List characters. Considering those variables and their MPAA ratings, I'd hardly consider them flops...they were never popular to begin with, so their audiences were limited.

Yes Lightning- they were flops- FLOPS. They didn't earn sufficient money to turn a profit or justify sequels. And let's not forget The Hulk.

And- the fact that you mention Blade punches holes in your point. because the first 2 blade films were big hits, and Blade was both an unknown commodity and rated R. But they scored because they were at least decent films. We have to forget about these being "Marvel" films or "Comic book" films. They are films, period and should be approached as such.

At least Avi has the guts to strike out there with lesser known properties than say DC/Warner Bros. which continue to rehash Supes and Bats, over and over and over and over and over again.

Again, this is the motivation of money. he's trying to force any and every character down our throats. Elektra didn't need her own film. F-ing MAGNETO doesn't need his own film. ANTMAN doesn't need his own film. Not while we have scripts like this one for the FF.

And at least DC is giving the audience what they want. Not or Blue Beetle or Ambush Bug the movie.

But in the comic book film genre--YES they are dominating indeed.

They're dominating because of the two aforementioned hit franchises, and that DC is only just now re-entering the market. Believe me- I want Marvel to dominate. I love their characters by far more than DC's with perhaps the exception of Supes, Bats and The Flash. But the movies they're producing won't keep them in the top spot for much longer.

Are you sure about that? That's not what I've read.

Yeah I'm sure. You never even heard about Arad until after Spidey became a hit. Yeah, he'd be there in the background, but you didn't here him making press statements about who they've hired for anything until after Spidey hit it big.

 

[Muze]

if people like the movie, that's all that matters. forget about Doom for a second. i haven't, yet, seen a marvel movie villain who was exactly like their comic book counterpart. now, from what i've seen, the Thing and the Human Torch are spot on. both characters have little kids among their fanbase. as long as these two characters perform well, the movie's mission is accomplished. those kids, if they don't already read FF, will become interested in them. even if they think of Doom as a corporate mogul, they will soon be re-educated via the internet and the comic books themselves. eventually, they will realize that the movie-Doom is a significantly watered-down version of the comic book character. but that goes with all movie characters (except maybe Blade). i guess what i'm trying to say is that you're worrying over nothing. it's not going to take much to get new readers 'addicted' to the Fantastic Four. your responsibility is to educate them on the deep history of the team; the continuity. none of us starts off knowing everything. i used to think that Doom was a time-traveler from the dark ages and an englishman.

 

[Lightning Strykez!]

if people like the movie, that's all that matters. forget about Doom for a second. i haven't, yet, seen a marvel movie villain who was exactly like their comic book counterpart. now, from what i've seen, the Thing and the Human Torch are spot on. both characters have little kids among their fanbase. as long as these two characters perform well, the movie's mission is accomplished. those kids, if they don't already read FF, will become interested in them. even if they think of Doom as a corporate mogul, they will soon be re-educated via the internet and the comic books themselves. eventually, they will realize that the movie-Doom is a significantly watered-down version of the comic book character. but that goes with all movie characters (except maybe Blade). i guess what i'm trying to say is that you're worrying over nothing. it's not going to take much to get new readers 'addicted' to the Fantastic Four. your responsibility is to educate them on the deep history of the team; the continuity. none of us starts off knowing everything. i used to think that Doom was a time-traveler from the dark ages and an englishman.

This is the most balanced post on this subject yet. Well done.

 

[Kurosawa]

Thing and Torch aren't spot-on, but they're closer than most other characters, Thing especially.

I expect to be well entertained each time they're on the screen, less happy with Reed and Sue due to the changes made in their characters and Alba's terrible miscasting, and disgusted beyond belief every time I see Klytus.