I Am Doom....discuss me [merged-2]

[ShadowBoxing]

Any faithful comic adaption can be done....like Sin City. In the case of FF the story would have to be drawn out to at least 3 hours. (You could get away with leaving out mole man and the skrull story which predate Doom...also you could omit when sans-powers Reed and Sue subdued Gormuu of Kraalo)

In general I have found sticking to the comic origin works best. Batman, Spider-Man, Superman had comic accurate origins. (actually DareDevil did to....but it was still not much of a film after the origin) have all been met with acclaim. Whereas X-Men films, Punisher, Elektra have all been questionable films (though the general public liked X-Men...I never did)

I feel sometimes directors/writers/producers overstep their bounds by assuming they know how to write a better origin than the creators.

 

[Herr Logan]

Dr. Doom's origin, to me, seems impossible to portray in a feature film alongside the Fan4's origin without audiences thinking Dr. Doom is an idiot. The accident that gave Doom his scar clearly isn't Reed's fault, yet Doom goes soul-searching for about a decade, and still holds a grudge against him. If I saw that on the big screen, and I wasn't aware of the comic book, I'd wonder what the hell Doom's problem is, and think he was a little bit "special." Rainman "special"-- intelligent, but not in complete possession of his faculties. There isn't enough time to give that origin justice.

And yet plenty of people want to see Venom in the next Spider-Man film. Venom's hatred of Spider-Man is just as idiotic as Dr. Doom's hatred towards Reed Richards-- actually, more so. Eddie Brock is not an idiot. He isn't a genius, but he's a clever bastard when he wants to be.
I think it's very possible to potray Doom's psychotic vanity and pride correctly. Unfortunately, it does seem that to do everything correctly, they would have to give Doom his own film, or maybe even a one-hour television one-shot.

A classic case of "I get it, you get it, but will Middle America get it?" The answer is almost always supposed to be "yes," but don't tell Hollywood that. They think general audiences aren't all that bright, so they reject intelligent scripts and original films, and give us a summer blockbuster season full of barely inspired remakes, sequels, and book adaptations. Even Mr. & Mrs. Smith is based off of a TV show.

However, I honestly think the decision to give Doom the same origin in this movie was based on two things:
1) Time. You can't squeeze Doom and the Four's origins all in one movie without seriously screwing one up... that is, unless you expand the movie by another hour or so. And FOX wouldn't even let Kingdom of Heaven run for another hour.
2) It was a pre-existing idea. I think Ultimate Fan4 pretty much did it for the sake of making a clever twist-- if Doom had been given powers along with the Fantastic Four, he still would've been evil and self-absorbed. It worked there, so why not use it in the movie, right?

But them believing audiences couldn't grasp a movie about crossing/separating/crossing paths? Charles Xavier and Magneto are proof that it can work. However, Magneto's origin (victim of Nazi rule, finds out he's superior to all humans, ironically does the exact same thing) doesn't need nearly as much exposition as Dr. Doom.

If they had decided to use Dr. Doom for the sequel, after the Fantastic Four have established themselves as superhero celebrities, I could see his origin working easily.


Sadly, I can see this happening. I can tell I'll have to do a lot of "actually, when he was introduced to the comic book in the 1960s, he..." in the near future.

The best possible scenario for harcore Marvel fans who want to see their heroes and villains realized in live-action movies would be if Marvel had become its own studio company and created a movie universe in which all properties could intermingle when appropriate. Dr. Doom shouldn't have his full origin revealed in a Fantastic Four movie (which in no way means what they've done here is acceptable or forgivable... I'm talking about handing out portions, not boiling the entire origin into a pungent stew and letting it grow tepid before serving it to the uwashed masses). Dr. Doom isn't just an FF villain. That just happens to be the superhero team that's most personally involved with him, due to Richards being his college rival. Dr. Doom is a villain for the entire Marvel universe. Doom should have gotten his own movie, and it should have featured Reed Richards and Ben Grimm in it. You can't tell me that they couldn't have gotten almost all of the important aspects of his origin correctly in a full-length feature film. As I said before, even an hour-long featurette would have established him properly. After he's established, he could soon show up in a Fantastic Four movie, where he is now a global threat and has personal designs on Reed Richards and his loved ones.
The entire Marvel Universe could interact if this type of arrangement had been made years ago.

 

[RedIsNotBlue]

Duh...that's just a fact. I know any comic adaptation can be faithful but that doesn't always necessarily mean it is the best way it can be done. You have to retell the story in a way that the general audience can understand in a 2 hour movie. I think your basically forgetting that not a lot of people that are actually going to see this movie have never read a Fantastic Four comic in their life. I think they have been faithful enough and still have achieved in making it for the general audience to get and understand what these characters are all about in the comics.

 

[Hunter Rider]

, it does seem that to do everything correctly, they would have to give Doom his own film, or maybe even a one-hour television one-shot.

ya know in these days of movies being multi nedia events with interconnecting games and soundtracks this wouldve been the time to use the most popular medium the DVD,They couldve done a 45 minute Victor von Doom origin DVD that covered his exile from Latveria,his time with the gypsies ,his college years with Reed and his return to Latveria,that way the movie couldve focused on the F4 origin and Doom couldve struck in the second act.I think if you cast 2 good young actors as Reed and Victor and sold the DVD for $15 it wouldve soled like hotcakes and wouldve been great promotion for the movie as a lead his,a prologue if you like

 

[RedIsNotBlue]

ya know in these days of movies being multi nedia events with interconnecting games and soundtracks this wouldve been the time to use the most popular medium the DVD,They couldve done a 45 minute Victor von Doom origin DVD that covered his exile from Latveria,his time with the gypsies ,his college years with Reed and his return to Latveria,that way the movie couldve focused on the F4 origin and Doom couldve struck in the second act.I think if you cast 2 good young actors as Reed and Victor and sold the DVD for $15 it wouldve soled like hotcakes and wouldve been great promotion for the movie as a lead his,a prologue if you like

So your saying you would have to see a dvd to understand the movie?

 

[Hunter Rider]

So your saying you would have to see a dvd to understand the movie?

well you wouldn't need it to understand the story and they could use a flashback to a quick montage of Reed/Victor's youth to fill in the blanks,the DVD would be for those that wanted to know the full backstory of Doom

 

[Dragon]

I'm seeing a funny concept coming up here- the idea of Doom or Magneto having their own films. talk about a bomb in the making. If Avi Arad wants to keep his cushy job, he really needs to stop coming up with this stuff, because these movies won't make it.

Only the hardest of hardcore fans would be there. The general audiences wouldn't give a damn about these films, even if they were perfectly made. But since they are often poorly made, chances are even less, just as they didn't give a damn about Elektra. Arad isn't a talented guy in any way shape or form. But he's supposed to be at least intelligent business-wise. He needs to grasp that not every character will be a vehicle for a film or TV show. They're having enough trouble making good films with their flagship characters.

But back to Doom and his origin. Time isn't a factor. Doom's origin, told thoroughly would take no more than 20 minutes of screentime. Again this is aided in that Doom and Reed's paths cross and re-cross. Same with that of the FF. Then you still have 80 minutes to focus on Doom's diabolical plot, the FF learning to function as a team, and assorted other odds and ends. And as I'd mentioned before, there is no reason the first film has to end with everyone in a perfect place. Reed and Sue don't have to be engaged. Ben doesn't have to be totally cool with Reed. Johnny doesn't have to be centered and ready to be a great hero. The fact that this is meant to be a franchise means that the characters should develop over the franchise.

As with Star Wars- We saw Luke develop into a Jedi over 3 films. We saw Anakin become Darth Vader over three films. And the audience kept going back because they wanted to see this happen.

 

[Rex Calibur]

Duh...that's just a fact. I know any comic adaptation can be faithful but that doesn't always necessarily mean it is the best way it can be done.

When the comics have gone on like that for forty years, I say it's pretty close to being the best it can be done.

You have to retell the story in a way that the general audience can understand in a 2 hour movie.

The general audience aren't idiots.

I think your basically forgetting that not a lot of people that are actually going to see this movie have never read a Fantastic Four comic in their life.

That gives us more reason to tell the real origin in the movie. What's your point?

I think they have been faithful enough and still have achieved in making it for the general audience to get and understand what these characters are all about in the comics.

They have. However, like you said at the beginning:

"that doesn't always necessarily mean it is the best way it can be done"

It can be interpreted that this Doom is similar to the Doom from the comics, but you have to look deep to see it. Using comic Doom will lead to a more powerful, more memorable and more respectable movie villain.

The fact is, this movie ISN'T the best they could do.

 

[Rex Calibur]

As with Star Wars- We saw Luke develop into a Jedi over 3 films. We saw Anakin become Darth Vader over three films. And the audience kept going back because they wanted to see this happen.

And Lord of the Rings. Me not being aware of the books, I was surprised to see LOTR: FOTR end with Frodo and Sam walking over a hill. It made me wait eagerly for the next one, to find out what happens.

 

[Ratcrawler]

So this is how I would have done it...

Doom and Reed are the two most brilliant minds on the planet. (They could could have shown that in a TIME article or something.) This should have been stated right off the bat. The main difference is their resPective approaches to science. Reed is more by the book, but Doom's view is more philosophical. (Remember Ultimate Doom's monologue about how Descarte arrived at the scientific principal because he tripped on a hallucinagenic mushroom? That science is an art?) He realizes that there is more to science than numbers and so he has a mystical side to him. Never really performs any sPells but we see that the occult plays a big role in his life. A mystic and a scientist. It's pretty unique as far as film villains go. Nobody argue's his methods because he get's results. He has a multibillion dollar empire at his fingertips. Makes everything from miracle medicines to military weapons to rocket engineering. And like movie Doom, he uses his influence to undermine any progress Reed makes.

They all go to sPace, but Doom escapes in a sPacepod before the radiation hits. The pod burns up on reentry. It lands in Tibet and when he staggers out we see his flesh got burned and scarred pretty horrifically. He passes out and when he comes to, he finds himself in a monestary. He recuperates gradually and is given pieces of armor and his metal mask to cover up his scarring.

He arrives at the nearest town and sees reports on TV of how the Fantastic Four saved a bunch of people from an earthquake or something. (In tibetan of course, but the images sPeak louder than words.) This outrages him. Four of his inferiors have sipped from the cup of the gods and he himself is now just a scarred man who's face is hidden from the world. He than considers it his mission to prove his own greatness to the world by destroying the four.

Doom calls Boris, who charters a private jet to pick him up like in Batman Begins and takes him back to America. Doom outfits himself in an exosuit he designed with blaster gauntlets and such and takes on the F4. Long fight, but he eventually loses and escapes.

We later find out that he returned to his homeland, overthrew the monarchy there and proclaimed himself king.

Just my two cents of how I'd like it to be done.

I gues my two biggest qualms are; I wish he would have gotten concussion beams instead of electrical powers. Second, he's a CEO who will probably become a monarch. So, comic faithfulness aside, why is he called "DOCTOR" Doom? Seem's like a step down from where his goals are.

 

[Manic]

ya know in these days of movies being multi nedia events with interconnecting games and soundtracks this wouldve been the time to use the most popular medium the DVD,They couldve done a 45 minute Victor von Doom origin DVD that covered his exile from Latveria,his time with the gypsies ,his college years with Reed and his return to Latveria,that way the movie couldve focused on the F4 origin and Doom couldve struck in the second act.I think if you cast 2 good young actors as Reed and Victor and sold the DVD for $15 it wouldve soled like hotcakes and wouldve been great promotion for the movie as a lead his,a prologue if you like

If there was one thing that I couldn't stand about the Matrix franchise, it was all of the tie-ins I needed to get ahold of just to understand the movie. In Matrix Reloaded, the audiences are automatically supposed to know who The Kid is, and that there are machines burrowing into the city. The movie assumed everybody watched the Animatrix. Then there were certain sequences that were reserved for the video game, which I never bought.

Same with Star Wars: Revenge of the Sith. I didn't watch all of Clone Wars, so there were a few things I didn't quite understand in Revenge.

I don't like the idea of having to catch some TV-movie or buying a DVD just to understand a character that will be in an upcoming film. That shouldn't be necessary at all. I want my theatrical movies self-contained, unless they're sequels. If they decide to make an "Origin of Dr. Doom" DVD between Fantastic Four movies, then I might be willing to accept it. I'd still be upset that I'd need a tie-in just to understand a character, though.

 

[Joe Rockhead]

And as I'd mentioned before, there is no reason the first film has to end with everyone in a perfect place. Reed and Sue don't have to be engaged. Ben doesn't have to be totally cool with Reed. Johnny doesn't have to be centered and ready to be a great hero. The fact that this is meant to be a franchise means that the characters should develop over the franchise.

As with Star Wars- We saw Luke develop into a Jedi over 3 films. We saw Anakin become Darth Vader over three films. And the audience kept going back because they wanted to see this happen.

I don't think the first Star Wars was made with an eye towards Luke developing into a Jedi over the following movies. As I recall, Lucas made the movie on a shoestring budget and there was no guarantee that a sequel would even be produced. He might have had it in his head to do it that way, but the first movie was meant to tell a fun adventure story and introduce the characters.

If you go back and look at those movies, both Star Wars and Phantom Menace ended on a relatively happy note. Even though both featured the death of a mentor (Obi Wan and Qui Gon), both ended with a decided victory for the heroes, with the celebrations to follow. A New Hope could have easily been the only movie ever made. It's overwhelming success allowed Lucas to expand his vision.

The second movie in the arcs left the characters futures more in doubt: Empire Strikes Back - rebel alliance on the run, Han Solo captured, Luke lost his hand.
Attack of the Clones - start of clone wars, Dooku escaped with unknown plans, Anakin lost his arm.

The second movies set up the resolutions to come in the third movies. These both had conclusions to the arc that left the audience more with hope for the future than anything. Difference being who was the victor.

Return of the Jedi - Emperor defeated and Sith eliminated, Vader Redeemed, celebrations galaxy wide
Revenge of the Sith - Emperor triumphs and Jedi all but eliminated, Anakin turns to the dark side, Luke and Leia born and hidden for the future.

The Matrix trilogy follows a similar pattern. The first movie stands alone. Sure there's the mystery of Zion, but the hero Neo has defeated the primary protaganist Mr. Smith.

Reloaded gave you the sort of cliffhanger ending, and Revolutions concluded Neo's and Mr. Smith's stories.

Go back and look at the Back to the Future movies, and you can see a similar pattern in effect.

The likelihood of Hollywood straying from this pattern is slight. They're too afraid to guarantee a sequel that the first movie is standalone. Then if it's well received, the second movie gets made with an eye for a third...so this gives the production teams two movies to work with, rather than just one.

Lord of the Rings is an exception to the rule. It was an established story with clearly defined break points that Jackson was able to work around. It's not following the books verbatim, but it certainly captured the essence of the books.

 

[Dragon]

Okay. Well, we could debate how Star Wars was structured. And 36 million dollars to make the first film is hardly a shoestring budget, particularly for the 70's.

But in the case of the FF, we know the characters and their development over time. Again, Ben and Reed had to take time to work things out. Sue & Reed had to develop their relationship over time as well. Johnny had to mature. The characters HAVE TO further develop in the sequels, otherwise all they'll be is special effects shows. There'll be no heart to them.

So, again I say, in the case of the first FF film, screentime didn't have to be devoted to their coming full circle. Thus time could have been devoted to fleshing out Doom's origin and theirs and ultimately giving the FF and Dom a truly worthy rivalry and final confrontation.

 

[chamber-music]

I like dooms comic book origin and I think it could be adapted to the fantastic four movie although I would leave out all that mystical magic crap. I know its a comic book movie so you have to dispel any form of reality and go along with the fantasy but its a bit of a stretch to belive in the whole my mothers in a demonic dimension. It would be better if she was wrongly imprisoned by the Latveria ruling family and the devise victor was building which blew up in his face was some kind of weapon he was going to use to get her out.

 

[Joe Rockhead]

Okay. Well, we could debate how Star Wars was structured. And 36 million dollars to make the first film is hardly a shoestring budget, particularly for the 70's.

Try more like 12 million:

http://www.ugo.com/channels/dvd/features/starwarstrilogy/makingthetrilogy.asp

In all, Star Wars filmed in England for 14 and a half weeks, resulting in principal photography that had taken nearly five grueling months. It was mid-summer, and the film was less than half-finished - with no hope of meeting its announced Christmas 1976 release date. Fox, already panicked by the rising budget (which was approaching $10 million) and the seemingly never-ending shoot, refused to give Lucas more time and gave him an ultimatum: Finish shooting or shut down the production.

For the second movie:
With the help of producer Gary Kurtz, he was able to secure a bank loan of $25 million - twice that of the first movie. Fox would serve as the film's distributor, but would have no say in its production.

But in the case of the FF, we know the characters and their development over time. Again, Ben and Reed had to take time to work things out. Sue & Reed had to develop their relationship over time as well. Johnny had to mature. The characters HAVE TO further develop in the sequels, otherwise all they'll be is special effects shows. There'll be no heart to them.

Who is this "we" you speak of? The Superherohype community or the general population of the US? We here might know the background and characters of the FF, but the general public certainly isn't expected to know them. The studio has to appeal to them too.

Any first movie is used to set up a firm foundation. So some conflict should be resolved in one movie, leaving some other things open for later development. I'm not saying all things get resolved, but some certainly must for it to be a complete film.

The Reed/Sue relationship is one thing that should be firmly established by the end of the first movie. It's the foundation of the group. Later developments should explore their marriage and finally the birth of Franklin. So there's plenty left to explore in later films.

So, again I say, in the case of the first FF film, screentime didn't have to be devoted to their coming full circle. Thus time could have been devoted to fleshing out Doom's origin and theirs and ultimately giving the FF and Dom a truly worthy rivalry and final confrontation.

For someone who's read the FF for a number of years, this is understandable. But the movie isn't being produced specifically for you, it has to appeal to a much broader audience than the comic book community in order to guarantee some sort of financial success.

 

[Herr Logan]

Duh...that's just a fact. I know any comic adaptation can be faithful but that doesn't always necessarily mean it is the best way it can be done. You have to retell the story in a way that the general audience can understand in a 2 hour movie. I think your basically forgetting that not a lot of people that are actually going to see this movie have never read a Fantastic Four comic in their life. I think they have been faithful enough and still have achieved in making it for the general audience to get and understand what these characters are all about in the comics.

You have no idea just how much I care what you think when it comes to this topic.

 

[lockjaw]

I'm seeing a funny concept coming up here- the idea of Doom or Magneto having their own films. talk about a bomb in the making. If Avi Arad wants to keep his cushy job, he really needs to stop coming up with this stuff, because these movies won't make it.

agreed

But back to Doom and his origin. Time isn't a factor. Doom's origin, told thoroughly would take no more than 20 minutes of screentime. Again this is aided in that Doom and Reed's paths cross and re-cross. Same with that of the FF. Then you still have 80 minutes to focus on Doom's diabolical plot, the FF learning to function as a team, and assorted other odds and ends. And as I'd mentioned before, there is no reason the first film has to end with everyone in a perfect place. Reed and Sue don't have to be engaged. Ben doesn't have to be totally cool with Reed. Johnny doesn't have to be centered and ready to be a great hero. The fact that this is meant to be a franchise means that the characters should develop over the franchise.

agreed

As with Star Wars- We saw Luke develop into a Jedi over 3 films. We saw Anakin become Darth Vader over three films. And the audience kept going back because they wanted to see this happen.

the same could said for Peter Parker's development in the Spidey franchise too!

 

[RedIsNotBlue]

You have no idea just how much I care what you think when it comes to this topic.

Sarcasm is hard to pick up online. Are you using it?

 

[LordSimen]

So, again I say, in the case of the first FF film, screentime didn't have to be devoted to their coming full circle. Thus time could have been devoted to fleshing out Doom's origin and theirs and ultimately giving the FF and Dom a truly worthy rivalry and final confrontation.

Here's the problem: There is no gaurantee there is going to be more than one movie. Every potential franchis has to deal with this- They have no idea if their movie will make enough for a sequal. Because of this, the first film HAS to feel like it comes full circle. X-men did, Spider-man did, Blade did and even Superman did. The same thing happend with Star Wars, there was no gaurantee that Episode IV: A New Hope would make enough for them to pull off a sequal, which is why it works as a complete movie on it's own.


Now, just as much as everyone else, the changes to Doom DO bug me, however I understand why they did this and am willing to live with it.

 

[Herr Logan]

ya know in these days of movies being multi nedia events with interconnecting games and soundtracks this wouldve been the time to use the most popular medium the DVD,They couldve done a 45 minute Victor von Doom origin DVD that covered his exile from Latveria,his time with the gypsies ,his college years with Reed and his return to Latveria,that way the movie couldve focused on the F4 origin and Doom couldve struck in the second act.I think if you cast 2 good young actors as Reed and Victor and sold the DVD for $15 it wouldve soled like hotcakes and wouldve been great promotion for the movie as a lead his,a prologue if you like

Exactly! I actually meant to put that in there, the thing about the DVD. Good thinkin'.

 

[theJust]

i love how you guys take fantasy and try and make it realistic

 

[LordSimen]

i love how you guys take fantasy so seriously

Well, it's understandable that we do. It's characters we love, we've grown up with. We all want the best for them, we just all have different opinions on it.

 

[Herr Logan]

Sarcasm is hard to pick up online. Are you using it?

On you, Precious? Never.

 

[RedIsNotBlue]

When the comics have gone on like that for forty years, I say it's pretty close to being the best it can be done.

Haha. Best is all matter of opinion. I just find it funny how some just think because it is printed in the comics then that is automatically the best way it can be done on the screen...wrong.

The general audience aren't idiots.

Never said they were. I simply meant that if they used Doom's origin from the comics in a 2 hour time frame it would be so rushed the general audience wouldn't fully understand it IMO.

That gives us more reason to tell the real origin in the movie. What's your point?

I feel the real origin on screen would not be as good as the one we are getting on screen but that is just my opinion. I love the one we are getting now.

They have. However, like you said at the beginning:

"that doesn't always necessarily mean it is the best way it can be done"

It can be interpreted that this Doom is similar to the Doom from the comics, but you have to look deep to see it. Using comic Doom will lead to a more powerful, more memorable and more respectable movie villain.

The fact is, this movie ISN'T the best they could do.

I would like to see think of something better. And copying the comics verbatim is going to cut it.

 

[Dragon]

Try more like 12 million:
Who is this "we" you speak of? The Superherohype community or the general population of the US? We here might know the background and characters of the FF, but the general public certainly isn't expected to know them. The studio has to appeal to them too.

I'm saying WE here at SHH who are having this discussion. And again the general public didn't know where things were gong with the Star Wars films. Neither did most know where things were going with LOTR. Yet the films were well made enough to keep people coming back. so the studio can "appeal' to them merely by making excellent films.

Any first movie is used to set up a firm foundation. So some conflict should be resolved in one movie, leaving some other things open for later development. I'm not saying all things get resolved, but some certainly must for it to be a complete film.[.quote]

And they are. they learn top use their powers and function as a team. we know they're heroes and they stop Doom's first scheme.

The Reed/Sue relationship is one thing that should be firmly established by the end of the first movie. It's the foundation of the group.

No it isn't. The group has been who it is whether Reed & Sue were together or not. There was even a point when Sue left the team, separating from Reed and the team continued. Reed and sue love each other, that's for certain and should be established. i'm just saying that they don't have to be getting married, or planning to be married or ven proposing by the end of the first film. Not if this screentime can be devoted to telling a compelling story like Doom's origin.

Later developments should explore their marriage and finally the birth of Franklin. So there's plenty left to explore in later films.

Their marriage and having Franklin doesn't reflect character development. Those are subplots.

For someone who's read the FF for a number of years, this is understandable. But the movie isn't being produced specifically for you, it has to appeal to a much broader audience than the comic book community in order to guarantee some sort of financial success.

It has to be a good film to have any "guarantee" of success. Doom being established as a powerful villain with strong back story isn't something that would appeal exclusively to comic book fans. The FF and Doom having a strong rivalry isn't either. And certainly the general audience wants a dramatic final confrontation. Show me the movie audience that says they want a simplistic and watered down villain.