The Dark Knight I guess joker just applies make-up after all

[CaptainClown]

It's "necessary" because it is a major source of his motivations, actions, speech, dress, appearance, lifestyle and relationships with other characters.

And since when do we analyse characters by what about them is "necessary"? Nothing is "necessary" in entertainment- it is all recreational. But if you want to adapt a character from one medium to another, then the major traits do become fairly "necessary"- even more so if you plan to depart heavily from his appearance and origins.

You may as well ask if it "necessary" for Batman to be gloomy.

Well since necessary seems to have thrown you off the wall I will just stick with the original question; why is it an important aspect of the character?

 

[The Shape]

It's "necessary" because it is a major source of his motivations, actions, speech, dress, appearance, lifestyle and relationships with other characters.

And since when do we analyse characters by what about them is "necessary"? Nothing is "necessary" in entertainment- it is all recreational. But if you want to adapt a character from one medium to another, then the major traits do become fairly "necessary"- even more so if you plan to depart heavily from his appearance and origins.

You may as well ask if it "necessary" for Batman to be gloomy.

How is narcissism a major source of his motivations, actions, or speech? It's obvious how it applies to his dress and appearance, but you take away his narcissism, as in TDK, and his motivations, actions, or speech don't seem to have changed.

It's not as if he's all of a sudden a completely different character. Also, I think the Joker in TDK actually IS narcissist. However, his narcissism, like everything, is so twisted.

 

[Infinity9999x]

And yet to embody evil, don't you need to have a mentally deranged view on the world? To have an urge to kill and kill and kill you have to be totally deranged -- not just evil.

There's a difference between an Emperor killing for material pleasure, and a random clown killing for his own amusement.

I can't honestly say if one needs a mentally deranged view on the world to embody evil. I think that someone who is truly evil simply enjoys causing others pain. I don't think they have to be deranged. I think that many evil people can view the world in a very orderly manor. In fact, many serial killers go about their killings go about their murder in a very orderly fashion.

So in that way, I don't think an evil person is insane.

The thing is, I think the Joker can represent either of these descriptions. In some of the crimes he commits, he seems very much like an evil person doing this to prove a point. Like in The Killing Joke. Everything he did in that story was to prove one point: that one bad day can drive anyone insane. I think TAS also followed this pattern more as well. The Joker seemed to commit his crimes in that for reasons, most of them for his own amusement, to kill Batman, or to increase his wealth.

At the same time, the Joker can seem like a completely deranged person. In Arkham Asylum he came off like this. In DKR as well. It really depends on the writer.

 

[The Joker]

Oh my god, are we actually questioning if Joker is insane, now?

*Buries face in hands*

 

[regwec]

How is narcissism a major source of his motivations, actions, or speech? It's obvious how it applies to his dress and appearance, but you take away his narcissism, as in TDK, and his motivations, actions, or speech don't seem to have changed.

Why would the man routinely try to get himself made mayor, put on television, devise his own chatshows, drive a car with his face on the front, refer to himself in the third person, manufacture a gas that makes others share his apperance, carry a cane with his sculpture on the handle, and constantly refer to himself as a "genius" or even "gorgeous" etc is he wasn't narcisistic?

Why is it generally supposed, here, that it is possible to hold a conversation on a subject without any reference to or understanding of the field in question?

It's not as if he's all of a sudden a completely different character.

Yes it is, because you have changed perhaps the most important element of that character.

Also, I think the Joker in TDK actually IS narcissist. However, his narcissism, like everything, is so twisted.

Where did I say that he wasn't? Why must the drones always assume that every comment or reflection is an attack on their hive queen?

 

[Infinity9999x]

Oh my god, are we actually questioning if Joker is insane, now?

*Buries face in hands*

It's a legitimate question. They even made an arc about it a while back.

The school of thought basically is, if the Joker knows what he's doing is wrong, but does it anyways, then he's not insane. He's just a bad guy that likes doing bad things.

I don't really have a preference either way, I think the character works both as an insane man, or just an evil man. Or a bit of both. It all depends on the story.

 

[deathfromabove]

the joker in the dark knight is clearly still a narcissist.

I think he's a narcisist fist and foremost. He has other elements to his character, but that seems to dominate.

its clear that you think his narcissism is the most imporatnt element of his character and while i agree his narcissism is an important element i also think you often overstate and misread its importance. just because he looks different (scummy vs snazzy) in the dark knight does not negate the pressence of his narcissism. the joker as portrayed in tdk could easily be diagnosed with a narcissistic personality disorder. read on...

that is also an important aspect of the character. It's the style that the Ledger Joker seems to lack.

again i strongly disagree here. ledger's joker lacks style? are you serious? just because the joker does not look dapper and clean does not, in any way, negate any "style" or narcissism he may have. you (and reg) are simplistically catagorizing narcissism (or more correctly npd) to a purely visual and one sided application of its meaning.

in the dark knight its clear that the joker's appearance is still central to his character. but you are applying a normal sense of asthetics to the character's appearance which is a bit silly considering the joker hardly has the same set of norms as the average person (or the average narcissist for that matter.) he clearly goes out of his way to look the way he does. even to the point that he may have scarred his own face and seemingly never washes the makeup from his face. sounds narcissistic to me.

narcissism isnt just about appearence either. typical narcissistic character traits include:

a need for constant attention and subservience from others
a lack of empathy for others
a preoccupation with the self
an inclination to lie or decieve

now i admit we dont know very much about nolan and ledger's portrayal yet but i would venture a guess that these above behavioral traits can be applied to the joker in the dark knight.

the fact the joker looks like a bit of a dirtbag does not preclude his having a very strong narcissistic streak or the pressence of a very strong npd, especailly when you take into consideration his outlook on such things as morality and asthetic beauty has always been portrayed as very different than the rest of society. (not to bring him up again but ) charles manson is often said to have a narcissistic personality disorder and he looks like a homeless bum.

i think some are misunderstanding the basic meaning and application of narcissism, especially when it manifests itself in an abnormal manner.

so again, the joker in the dark knight is still a narcissist and i challenge anyone to show otherwise.

(im looking at you regwec)

 

[The Joker]

It's a legitimate question. They even made an arc about it a while back.

The school of thought basically is, if the Joker knows what he's doing is wrong, but does it anyways, then he's not insane. He's just a bad guy that likes doing bad things.

That's not what makes Joker insane. Schemes and goals like trying to legally copyright fish with his smile is what shows that he's insane.

Any sane man would know that cannot be done. What was it Batman said in Detective #475? "Normal criminals usually have logical motives. But the Joker's insane schemes make sense to him alone".

 

[Infinity9999x]

That's not what makes Joker insane. Schemes and goals like trying to legally copyright fish with his smile is what shows that he's insane.

Does that make a man insane? To him copyrighting the fish and then taking it out on the accountant, or lawyer (whatever that guy was) was funny to him.
Using that logic some people might think Sacha Baron Cohen is insane because the things he did in Borat did not make sense to them.

Any sane man would know that cannot be done. What was it Batman said in Detective #475? "Normal criminals usually have logical motives. But the Joker's insane schemes make sense to him alone".

I was never under the impression that the Joker actually thought he could actually copyright the fish. In TAS version of that comic, the lawyer asks "why is he doing this to me Batman? I've never done anything to him, I'm just a nobody."

To which Batman responds "yes, and in his sick mind, that's the Joke."

I think the Joker was doing it more to torture that man then actually get the rights to the fish. And really, thinking you can copyright a fish doesn't make you insane, it just makes you....well, stupid and uninformed. I bet you could convince a man on the street (one that didn't know much about copyrights) that a company could copyright fish if it put a stamp with it's logo on it.

 

[The Joker]

Does that make a man insane?

Yes. Unless you know of some sane people who have tried it.

I was never under the impression that the Joker actually thought he could actually copyright the fish.

"If I don't get legal claim to my fish by 3AM, the number two burecrat, Thomas Jackson, will feel my wrath"

In TAS version of that comic, the lawyer asks "why is he doing this to me Batman? I've never done anything to him, I'm just a nobody."

To which Batman responds "yes, and in his sick mind, that's the Joke."

Joker chose the funniest way to him to get that legal claim to his fish. But he never lost sight of his insane goal.

I think the Joker was doing it more to torture that man then actually get the rights to the fish.

If all he wanted was the joy of torturing someone, he wouldn't have to come up with the legal claim for the fish hoopla. He could just go out and get someone.

And really, thinking you can copyright a fish doesn't make you insane, it just makes you....well, stupid and uninformed.

Are you serious? He was told that legally he could not have his fish copyrighted, so he decides the best way to do it is a murder spree of the Copyright people.

You think that's stupid and uninformed? Do me a favour, never become a psychiatrist

I bet you could convince a man on the street (one that didn't know much about copyrights) that a company could copyright fish if it put a stamp with it's logo on it.

I'm sure you could, until he's told otherwise by a legal professional, like Joker was.

 

[StylishHokie21]

Oh my god, are we actually questioning if Joker is insane, now?

*Buries face in hands*

Haha! I guess people are running out of things to discuss.

 

[deathfromabove]

Haha! I guess people are running out of things to discuss.

nevah!

 

[The Guard]

And THAT action, in of itself, is that of a "deranged mind", which is, ironically enough, a definition for "insane".

That's ridiculous. That would seem to mean that I could do damn near whatever I want and get off with insanity. But let me ask you...if I am in full awareness of what I am doing, and fully capable of stopping myself, and I plan this thing, and do it anyway...even if I am branded "insane"...does that mean I actually am insane?

But hey, he's just "evil", right? By no means insane...although, to embody evil, you must inherently be mentally deranged.

Where is this written? Some of the most evil people in history were completely logical, extremely intelligent, and in full control of their faculties. Their ACTIONS being less than normal doesn't make them insane by itself.

Eh!?!?!?! It shows that the guy is completely senseless, which, ironically enough, is another definition of insane.

Again, that's a really broad definition. Senseless in what regard?

But hey, I take it that Joker not being affected by Scarecrow's fear gas simply shows that he is "evil", right

That just shows that he's not affected by fear gas. You know why? Because he's not affected by any mood altering gas. You know why? Because he made himself impervious to his own Joker gas/venom/toxin early in his career as The Joker. It's been mentioned once or twice before in the comics.

If I take photos of a dying person, and then laugh in the face of that person, then, put it one way, I am not "sane".

Wouldn't you agree?

I mean, you'd be "cruel" and an "*******, but "insane?" Depends on your state of mind at the time, and if you knew what you were doing and were in control of it. Maybe you just intended to be cruel.

So, if I were to come round to your house, shoot your girlfriend, undress her, and take photos of her, laughing as she lay dying, then told you I was fully aware of my actions, and did this just to hurt you......you'd go to bat for me in court, and say I shouldn't get the death penalty, and I should get psychological counselling instead?

Given the premeditated nature of the act, I'd declare you as sane as the day is long and fight for that label to stick.

And yet to embody evil, don't you need to have a mentally deranged view on the world? To have an urge to kill and kill and kill you have to be totally deranged -- not just evil.

Uh...no. You just have to be antisocial and find some joy in the idea of killing or causing pain.

There's a difference between an Emperor killing for material pleasure, and a random clown killing for his own amusement.

And that is? Isn't amusement its own kind of pleasure?

And what does Batman attempt to do throughout The Killing Joke? He attempts to redeem the Joker. He attempts to sought counsel with the Joker. Why do you think that Batman has never pulled the plug on Joker, after everything he's done? It's partially because Batman knows that the Joker is just too f*****g insane to function. It's not his fault, really, because people like him have had to endure something that can drive a man insane.

That's what Batman may think. That doesn't make it so. And he figures it out at the end for sure.

"I've always known...there's nothing wrong with you that I can't fix with my own two hands".

He even pretty much points out to The Joker that he knows it isn't all some cosmic fate thing, and that The Joker has essentially decided to become what he did.

I mean, what is the entire point of The Killing Joke? It's to show that it only takes one bad to day to drive a man to the brink of INSANITY. What is Joker trying to do to Gordon? Turn him evil, or turn him insane?

And The Joker FAILS miserably, and Batman quickly realizes that people don't just go insane when something bad happens. What does that tell you about The Joker and his insanity, at least as far as Batman is concerned?

"Maybe it was just you, all along"

There's a hidden meaning there. Batman doesn't just mean "Maybe you're the only one who went insane. Maybe it was just you. Maybe this is just what you wanted, and you did it."

but to suggest that the joker is a completely sane man is, im sorry, a tough pill to swallow.

Sure is, especially to those who don't get to see his adventures the way we do, over and over again, where we can compare them.

Which is probably why he keeps getting sent to Arkham.

he may grease the gears a bit by claiming "complete madness" but he is not what i would call sane by any clinical definition. insane is a really a broad term but i would probably say at the least that he has a psychopathology of some kind.

He's not mentally healthy by any stretch. His actions aren't NORMAL by any stretch, but he seems to be in complete control of himself and his faculties. Therefore I would say he's pretty sane, despite any number of "antisocial mental illnessness" he may have.

Remember, the presence of a mental illness doesn't mean you are insane.

i really dont see how anyone can say he isnt portrayed as someone with some sort of mental disorder though.

He may well have one or seventeen. That doesn't make him insane.

again: legally insane?

maybe not.

but clinically sane?

you would be crazy to think that.

Why?

Just seems to me that the core roots of Joker's evil nature is driven through his own insanity, and that's what he tries to rub off on Gordon.

TRIES TO RUB OFF ON GORDON. If he's aware of it, and he knows of his "condition", and he even seeks to psychologically justify it, and to justify it via "I had bad things happen to me", how can that be called true insanity?

I mean, the Joker didn't become evil overnight -- he simply "let go", and relied on "madness" for the way out.

If we're to believe The Killing Joke and The Man Behind The Red Hood he pretty much did "snap" overnight.

By the way; who, here, has read "The Joker: Devil's Advocate"? I seem to remember the Joker being cleared of all murders due to being found for "not guilty by reason of insanity".

So because society thinks he's insane because he's been labeled as such, that means he is?

Also, the Wikipedia also recognizes that the Joker was driven "insane" by the chemical bath:

The Joker emerges from chemical-ridden water and goes insane in The Killing Joke.

Ok...so...some random person wrote that he goes insane in The Killing Joke.

His mental state is completely unstable. He is highly insane and is a regular in Arkham Asylum. The Joker will at one time be mischievous and funny, but at other times be violent, brutal, and cruel. There seems to be no cure for the Joker’s insanity.

Still don't buy it.

Hate to admit it, but Mr. Superhero is right.

insane --
1. not sane; not of sound mind; mentally deranged.

This can describe any NUMBER of mental illnesses.

2. of, pertaining to, or characteristic of a person who is mentally deranged: insane actions; an insane asylum.

This clearly refers to "insanity" as a label. That's like calling a kid who stole something once a "criminal" for life.

3. utterly senseless: an insane plan.

How is The Joker utterly senseless? His plans always have some kind of logical sense behind them. Prove that any of these apply to The Joker.

Synonyms 1. demented; lunatic, crazed, crazy; maniacal. 3. foolish, irrational. See MAD.

These are synonyms for insane. Just because The Joker has had them used in tandem with himself proves nothing overtly.

All of these things fit the Joker's profile perfectly. Yes, he's aware of what he's doing. He takes pleasure in muder and mayhem. He is a certified anarchist. However, his there's no true reason behind what he does. His actions are insane -- utterly senseless, irrational, and demented.

There's a very clear reason behind what he does. He simply enjoys it. Immensely. He's not a sociopath who shows no feeling when he kills someone. Not usually.

The Joker is a maniac, and what's the definition of a maniac? -- a raving or violently insane person; lunatic.

Eh.

Don't look at it in a legal sense. Think of the broader definition.

Thinking of the broader defiintion of insanity makes it even EASIER to show The Joker as a partially sane man. Broad means "vague".

This is like that episode of THE SIMPSONS.

"How do you tell if someone is sane or insane?"

"We have a very simple system for that"

(Stamps Homer's hand "Insane")

That's not what makes Joker insane. Schemes and goals like trying to legally copyright fish with his smile is what shows that he's insane.

How does that prove he's insane?

Any sane man would know that cannot be done.

No, any man uber-familiar with copyright laws would know. Most people wouldn't know something like this.

What was it Batman said in Detective #475? "Normal criminals usually have logical motives. But the Joker's insane schemes make sense to him alone".

So because Batman chooses to believe The Joker is insane...that means he must be?

If all he wanted was the joy of torturing someone, he wouldn't have to come up with the legal claim for the fish hoopla. He could just go out and get someone.

Right. But that wouldn't be funny.

 

[Carnotaur3]

I'm with The Guard on this one. Joker isn't insane. He just doesn't care about anything. He's without morals. He lies. He deceives. He makes fun. He's completely untrustworthy.

"The only way to live in this world is without rules."

He also seems (in TDK) to have his own ideology as well. He chooses to live this way because that's what he believes.

 

[The Joker]

How does that prove he's insane?

Because it's not the kind of scheme a sane person would pursue.

No, any man uber-familiar with copyright laws would know. Most people wouldn't know.

But Joker was told by a legal professional that he cannot do it. Joker's response was anger and frustration, followed by a mass murder spree of the copyright people using his Joker toxin to try and make it happen, anyway.

So because Batman chooses to believe The Joker is insane...that means he must be?

Well, since Batman is a detective, studied the psychology of criminals, and dealt with pretty much every deranged scheme the Joker's cooked up in his criminal career, I reckon Batman knows what he's talking about, yes.

Right. But that wouldn't be funny.

Killing someone with his Joker toxin wouldn't be funny?

 

[CaptainClown]

He is Joker; a hypocrite and unique in his own right. He is insane and sane at the same time. It would be like everyone sees the world through a window, depending on where they are standing would determine how you perceive what is out there. Nothing is different just a differing point of view. An insane person wouldn't look through the window because they don't realize its there and don't know why they should do it etc. for whatever reason.

Joker sees through a stained glass window with bunnies and all sorts of weird stuff. That is probably the easiest way to explain how someone could do all these "insane" things while being fully functional.

 

[deathfromabove]

Well, since Batman is a detective, studied the psychology of criminals, and dealt with pretty much every deranged scheme the Joker's cooked up in his criminal career, I reckon Batman knows what he's talking about, yes.

priceless.

furthermore guard you seem to applying the legal definition of insanity, which largly depends on intent and ability to descern right from wrong at the time, to this argument. if this is what you are referring to, i agree.

this sheds some light. even the standards for legal insanity arent completely solid.

http://crime.about.com/od/issues/a/insanity.htm

i think that the joker knows what he is doing and therefore, under the legal requirements for the "insanity plea", would be declared sane. but it is likely that he would be able to fool many a psyhe exam because, like you said, we the reader know what he is thinking but the fictional doctors who would be applying such a test, do not. so, although he may fool a courtroom, and get sent to arkham, i believe the joker is not generally portrayed as legally insane.

but if you mean insane as in the kind of terminology a psychologist would apply then i believe that yes, the joker, as generally characterized, posses one or more of the specific mental illnesses that would have fallen under this definition. the problem with using insanity in this context, it is nearly archaic, as most doctors prefer to diagnose the specific mental defect or condition (schizophrenia, psychopathy, narcissistic personality disorder etc...). i believe the joker, at various times, has possesed all of the previously mentioned psychopathologies in his characterization. and i have never read a joker story where he is not, at the very least a psychopath. has anyone?

so while i guess, technically, it is probably incorrect to label the joker insane from either a legal standpoint (because he doesnt qualify) or a medical standpoint (because the term is no longer used) from a common use standpoint (or "in the parlance of our times") insanity is a synonym for crazy, nuts, wacko, psycho, and in this instance i believe the usage is correct. clearly, the joker's actions are at times, all of the above, and as the saying goes "stupid is a stupid does".

He is Joker; a hypocrite and unique in his own right. He is insane and sane at the same time. It would be like everyone sees the world through a window, depending on where they are standing would determine how you perceive what is out there. Nothing is different just a differing point of view. An insane person wouldn't look through the window because they don't realize its there and don't know why they should do it etc. for whatever reason.

Joker sees through a stained glass window with bunnies and all sorts of weird stuff. That is probably the easiest way to explain how someone could do all these "insane" things while being fully functional.

perfect.

 

[guitarkhero311]

The Joker is insane. To the public he is. To attorneys, cops, judges, everyday normal people in the modern and moral Gotham City. Just because he knows what he is doing does not deflect the fact that he is insane. The innocent people murdered at his hands will attest to it. Now The Joker to himself, is not insane. Actually he hates it when he is called insane. He detests the word in BTAS and many of the comics. Insane is not his style, TO HIS POINT OF VIEW. That is because he is not an attorney, cop, judge, everyday normal person in the modern and moral Gotham City. He is a mass murderer with no empathy and believes in what he does, whole heartedly. To argue about his insanity is feckless. Now to argue if he is insane based on the social standards and morals of his community would be one way to start. But considering that everyone, including the Joker, has a different point of view on the word insanity, WHY THE **** would you argue this point. To conclude, based on the social standards and morals of Gotham City, the Joker is nucking futs. But to the Joker, its just another day, it does not phase him. It is his definition of SANE.

 

[The Joker]

Now The Joker to himself, is not insane. Actually he hates it when he is called insane. He detests the word in BTAS and many of the comics.

Really? I don't recall any times in the BTAS when he detested being called insane. Or in the comic books, either.

It's always been something he was never ashamed of admitting. Sometimes he was even proud of it.

 

[cjblair]

I don't think he's insane, I think (original idea coming up here) he has super-sanity, the ideal mind for today's man on the go.

 

[The Joker_1000]

Really? I don't recall any times in the BTAS when he detested being called insane. Or in the comic books, either.

It's always been something he was never ashamed of admitting. Sometimes he was even proud of it.

In TAS he actually brags about being insane at times so at least in TAS he didn't have a problem with it.

 

[Mister J]

DCAU-related, I remember in Injustice For All he enters the room after Grundy calls Luthor crazy and responds "And what's wrong with that? It's done wonders for me."

I don't recall any instances in the comics where he railed against being labeled 'insane', though there have been some examples where he takes offense at any common labeling, but that's more of the narcissistic/showmanship angle.

 

[The Joker_1000]

Yep, he's pretty happy to be crazy. He's always made some kind of joke about it.

 

[ronny]

It released the monster that was already in him. He was already a madman--he just didn't know it.

Are we talking about The Killing Joke here? Because I never thought he came across as nuts before the accident. I mean, that was my main gripe with the story, that he was a family man and then becomes mad in the space of one day. Were there hints that he was disturbed before his baptism of bleach?

 

[Snoo]

Really? I don't recall any times in the BTAS when he detested being called insane. Or in the comic books, either.

It's always been something he was never ashamed of admitting. Sometimes he was even proud of it.

Yes. Here's an example from "The Greatest Joker Stories Ever Told" (not sure which story exactly, might be "The Laughing Fish"):

Robin: "You're out of your mind, Joker!"
Joker: "Gloriously so! Isn't it wonderful? If I were sane, I might not be so brilliant!"

Still, even though he says it himself in the old comics, I prefer The Guard's view on this. Or CaptainClown's. He's BOTH sane and insane.