The Dark Knight I guess joker just applies make-up after all

[Mr. Superhero]

That's ridiculous. That would seem to mean that I could do damn near whatever I want and get off with insanity. But let me ask you...if I am in full awareness of what I am doing, and fully capable of stopping myself, and I plan this thing, and do it anyway...even if I am branded "insane"...does that mean I actually am insane?

But you must be inherently insane to even consider doing some of the stuff that Joker does.

"It's not who you are underneath; it's what you do that defines you."

This is an awesome line in Begins. You can blabber on about how the Joker knows what he is doing, but what you fail to see is how that tiny bit of rationality is completely outweighed by his own personal mentally deranged view on the world. Damn, personally, I wouldn't even say that this guy has an ounce of rationality left in him, and there is no evidence to suggest otherwise.

Let me ask you something: why does Joker specifically try to drive Gordon to "madness" in TKJ? Because he knows that through insanity comes the lust to perform evil deeds. That's exactly where the Joker draws his evil nature from. I mean, before the chemical bath, the Joker was never as evil as he was after the accident. And what is that? It's because the chemical bath accident drove him insane. It knocked him senseless. He was horrified to the point of insanity. His viewpoint of the world completely changed. He became totally irrational, which, ironically enough, is a synonym for "insane".

The Joker's action are that of an insane man. Check the dictionary defintions. If the Joker isn't "insane", then are you implying that he is "sane", like you and me?

Where is this written? Some of the most evil people in history were completely logical, extremely intelligent, and in full control of their faculties. Their ACTIONS being less than normal doesn't make them insane by itself.

Please, name these people, because I guarantee that they killed due to being either corrupt by power, or for some kind of material possession. The Joker is completely different in the sense that he doesn't kill for any material possessions -- he kills for his own personal amusement. What's the difference between the Joker before the chemical bath, and the Joker after the chemical?

Why is the Joker more "evil" after his accident at the chemical factory? Because he was driven insane, just as the Joker points out in TKJ. His evil stemmed from his own insanity, and that's what he tried to rub off on Gordon, obviously.

The day I enjoy picking up a knife and stabbing people; the day I take pictures of a dying person and show those pictures to that dying person's parents; is the day that I develop a "mentally deranged" view on the world. And I haven't even elaborated on the other dictionary definitions yet, so reply at your own peril...

Again, that's a really broad definition. Senseless in what regard?

You can call it what you like; it's a synonym for "insane", and you're the one claiming that he isn't insane.

And he is senseless in the sense that he doesn't give a crap about his own personal well-being. He is completely out-of-touch with rationality to the point where if you spike him with fear gas, he will just laugh in your face. He is totally senseless to the point where he shows no regard for others. He shows no regard for rationality. He shows no regard for anything other than creating chaos.

The Joker may develop intelligent plans and what not, but the ultimate goal of that plan -- the meaning of that plan -- is usually to create something of pure insanity. The motives behind that plan are driven through the Joker's insanity. And that insanity was developed after the Joker realized that he had permanently bleached skin. As he points out in TKJ, he had one bad day, but chose to "let go" and became totally nuts.

That just shows that he's not affected by fear gas. You know why? Because he's not affected by any mood altering gas. You know why? Because he made himself impervious to his own Joker gas/venom/toxin early in his career as The Joker. It's been mentioned once or twice before in the comics.

And I take it that's DC canon?

I mean, you'd be "cruel" and an "*******, but "insane?" Depends on your state of mind at the time, and if you knew what you were doing and were in control of it. Maybe you just intended to be cruel.

You keep saying that the Joker is in "control", yet his actions suggest otherwise, something you keep missing. Hell, even Batman attempts to "rehabilitate" the Joker at the end of TKJ; he offers him helf. He makes it perfectly clear that the Joker can seek help for his insanity, but the Joker refusis, because it is "too late" to make a man, who has craved as much chaos as he has, rational once again.

He is outweighed by his own insanity -- his own mentally deranged view of the world.

Uh...no. You just have to be antisocial and find some joy in the idea of killing or causing pain.

AND TO ENJOY KILLING OF CAUSING PAIN, YOU MUST INHERENTLY BE MENTALLY DERANGED!!! YOU MUST INHERENTLY BE COMPLETELY IRRATIONAL!!!

Good God...where you pull this belief from I do not know.

And that is? Isn't amusement its own kind of pleasure?

Exactly!! And what rational and sane person do you know who kills endlessly for their own personal pleasure?

And what is the slogan for The Killing Joke, may I ask?

"Beyond evil there is insanity, beyond insanity there is Joker."

Your argument has been all but destroyed.

That's what Batman may think. That doesn't make it so. And he figures it out at the end for sure.

"I've always known...there's nothing wrong with you that I can't fix with my own two hands".

He even pretty much points out to The Joker that he knows it isn't all some cosmic fate thing, and that The Joker has essentially decided to become what he did.

But you keep babbling on about how, secretly, the Joker is in complete control and could stop at anytime, yet his actions suggest otherwise, and this is what Batman has picked up on.

Beyond insanity is the Joker, The Guard.

I guess that simply makes him evil, right...?

And The Joker FAILS miserably, and Batman quickly realizes that people don't just go insane when something bad happens. What does that tell you about The Joker and his insanity, at least as far as Batman is concerned?

"Maybe it was just you, all along"

There's a hidden meaning there. Batman doesn't just mean "Maybe you're the only one who went insane. Maybe it was just you. Maybe this is just what you wanted, and you did it."

Of coarse the Joker failed, because Gordon was strong enough and rational enough to stay within the realms of reality.

"Every man has a breaking point", and Gordon's wasn't breached -- and hell, maybe Gordon would have gone insane if Batman hadn't have showed up. Two-Face had one bad day, and was driven insane. The entire Joker characterization is based around the power of insanity; TKJ attempts to make us understand the reasons for why Joker does the things that he does. It isn't a story about how the Joker is simply "evil" -- it's about the chemical bath accident, and how the evil that he craves is driven through memories and one bad day, to which the Joker chose to drown out by falling out of touch with rationality and, ergo, was consumed with pure insanity.

Even the slogan of the damn book suggests as much...

 

[Eggyman]

Crazy and stupid don't go hand in hand. Joker can be insane AND intelligent simultaneously.

 

[Da Joker]

can someone clear to me whats all the talk about a 'nurse' joker thats been going on ?

 

[Doctor Baywatch]

Crazy and stupid don't go hand in hand. Joker can be insane AND intelligent simultaneously.

no it does not, but an insane person cannot use his intelligence completely because they don't see the world as a whole.

An insane person wouldn't be a threat for Batman.

 

[Eggyman]

no it does not, but an insane person cannot use his intelligence completely because they don't see the world as a whole.

An insane person wouldn't be a threat for Batman.

So The Joker isn't a threat to Batman?

 

[Mister J]

can someone clear to me whats all the talk about a 'nurse' joker thats been going on ?

From the sum total of the sides, script leaks, cast confirmation or something else (I really forget which one at this point), it's heavily rumored, if not fully expected that

Spoiler

Joker will dress as a female nurse (perhaps a pink uniform) and proceed to blow up a hospital

 

[Da Joker]

From the sum total of the sides, script leaks, cast confirmation or something else (I really forget which one at this point), it's heavily rumored, if not fully expected that

Spoiler

Joker will dress as a female nurse (perhaps a pink uniform) and proceed to blow up a hospital

wow....kinky

 

[Infinity9999x]

Yes. Unless you know of some sane people who have tried it.



"If I don't get legal claim to my fish by 3AM, the number two burecrat, Thomas Jackson, will feel my wrath"

You're missing the point here. I think Joker knew the whole time that he wasn't going to get the fish, he wanted to be refused, so he could kill Thomas Jackson, because in his mind, that's the Joke.

Sometimes when people do crazy things, they're just crazy, and then sometimes when people do crazy things, they do it to make a point. They know what they're doing is nuts, but they do something outlandish so people pay attention to them.

Like my Borat example. That actor did all those crazy things for one purpose: to make people laugh.

Many times Joker does things for a purpose. In TKJ he did all those things to Gordon and Barbra because he wanted to prove a point. In laughing fish he did this so he could attack a person who was only trying to do their job and live their life, because in his mind that's the joke. He's going after the "little fish" for something he knows the little fish has no control over.

Joker chose the funniest way to him to get that legal claim to his fish. But he never lost sight of his insane goal.

I agree, I think we just differ on what the Joker's goal was on the incident in question.

If all he wanted was the joy of torturing someone, he wouldn't have to come up with the legal claim for the fish hoopla. He could just go out and get someone.

Yes, he could do that, but it was funnier to him to go about it this way. The Laughing Fish had a point. He was going to kill a "little fish" in the copyright business over a legal issue this man had no power to change. And that's the joke for the Joker. The whole thing is incredibly unfair and doesn't make any sense, and that's the whole point. The Joker is all about creating chaos in the world. He's throwing this man's life into chaos for an incredibly stupid reason, and to the Joker that's hilarious.

Are you serious? He was told that legally he could not have his fish copyrighted, so he decides the best way to do it is a murder spree of the Copyright people.

You think that's stupid and uninformed? Do me a favour, never become a psychiatrist

You're misunderstanding my point. I believe the Joker knew he was going to be refused. He wanted to go on the killing spree for the same reason I posted above.




See, that's the thing. In many stories the Joker's plots have a point, and when someone does something that seems "crazy" to prove a point, or for a reason, I don't think they're crazy.

The guy who played Borat isn't actually as ignorant as Borat, he knew he shouldn't have ***** in a bag and brought it back to the dinner table, but he did it for a reason, he wanted to be funny. I don't think he's crazy. However, if he *****s in a bag in real life and walks around with it like nothing is wrong, then I'd think he's crazy.

In some stories it's very obvious the Joker is preforming his crazy antics for a specific reason or to prove a point. Then, in other stories he seems like he's just nuts. Like I said before, I think it all depends on the writer.

 

[Mr. Superhero]

The guy who played Borat isn't actually as ignorant as Borat, he knew he shouldn't have ***** in a bag and brought it back to the dinner table, but he did it for a reason, he wanted to be funny. I don't think he's crazy. However, if he *****s in a bag in real life and walks around with it like nothing is wrong, then I'd think he's crazy.

In some stories it's very obvious the Joker is preforming his crazy antics for a specific reason or to prove a point. Then, in other stories he seems like he's just nuts. Like I said before, I think it all depends on the writer.

You're speaking as though "eating poo", or "carrying poo around in a plastic bag" is the only way to focus your insanity. There are many ways to display your mental derangement -- the Joker chose to kill, endlessly.

 

[Infinity9999x]

You're speaking as though "eating poo", or "carrying poo around in a plastic bag" is the only way to focus your insanity. There are many ways to display your mental derangement -- the Joker chose to kill, endlessly.

I know that there are more things to focus on insanity then eating poo, I just used those as an example.

Now, just because the Joker chose to kill endlessly, does that make him insane? I think that there are many sane people who kill. The court system does as well, since we sentence many serial killers to jail or a lethal injection rather then lock them up in an Asylum.

On the other hand, I do think that there are some killers who are insane.

I think you have to decide if the Joker is a sociopath, or crazy. I wouldn't say a sociopath is insane, they just have no feeling for right or wrong. In some stories I think the Joker resembles more of a sociopath then an insane person. Then in other stories he definitely seems insane.

 

[The Joker]

You're missing the point here. I think Joker knew the whole time that he wasn't going to get the fish, he wanted to be refused, so he could kill Thomas Jackson, because in his mind, that's the Joke.

I'm not missing any point.

There is nothing in the story to support your theorey. Especially when we see Joker on his own in his lair laughing to himself about how they'll soon give into him and give him the legal claim he desires.
Then he stops and says to himself "What if they conspire against me and stop eating fish? What if they leave them in the sea?". Then he smiles and says "No, that would never work. The vegetarians would never go along with it. Besides, I could always use my toxin on cattle.....JOKER BURGERS!!!".

His focus was very much getting the legal claim to the fish. Not the killing. An insane scheme cooked up by an insane mind.

Simple as that.

Sometimes when people do crazy things, they're just crazy, and then sometimes when people do crazy things, they do it to make a point. They know what they're doing is nuts, but they do something outlandish so people pay attention to them.

But that's not The Joker. If he's planning a mass murder, he'll say so. If he has a specific goal, he'll say so.

Like my Borat example. That actor did all those crazy things for one purpose: to make people laugh.

Borat is not The Joker. Borat made a movie to make money. Joker entertains himself.

Many times Joker does things for a purpose. In TKJ he did all those things to Gordon and Barbra because he wanted to prove a point.

Right.

He wasn't doing it because he felt like he wanted to torture an old man and cripple a girl. He had a goal. It was a means to his end.

Just like killing those copyright people was.

In laughing fish he did this so he could attack a person who was only trying to do their job and live their life, because in his mind that's the joke. He's going after the "little fish" for something he knows the little fish has no control over.

Nonsense.

That is pure speculation on your part. And as I said above, all the elements in that story point AGAINST that.

I agree, I think we just differ on what the Joker's goal was on the incident in question.

Yes, I can see that. Although I imagine Steve Englehart might be a little frustrated with you if he read this. "Did I not make it clear enough that Joker wanted his Joker fish to be legalized? This was not about killing"

If Joker wants to kill people, he'll do just that. He doesn't disguise it with some hokey half baked goal like legalizing Joker fish. He'll outright announce that he plans a mass slaughter for fun.

Yes, he could do that, but it was funnier to him to go about it this way. The Laughing Fish had a point. He was going to kill a "little fish" in the copyright business over a legal issue this man had no power to change. And that's the joke for the Joker. The whole thing is incredibly unfair and doesn't make any sense, and that's the whole point. The Joker is all about creating chaos in the world. He's throwing this man's life into chaos for an incredibly stupid reason, and to the Joker that's hilarious.

How did you miss the simple point of The Laughing Fish? It was never ever about that. About killing helpless people.

Joker simply chose that method because it was the funniest way to reach his goal. It was a means to an end. His focus was always, repeat always on the fish.

He wouldn't even have touched G. Carl Francis if they gave into his demands. It was never about the killing.

You're misunderstanding my point. I believe the Joker knew he was going to be refused. He wanted to go on the killing spree for the same reason I posted above.

Couldn't disagree more. His total surprise and anger when he is refused, followed by his rant about Colonel Sanders having chickens, was ample proof that he thought his request was perfectly reasonable.

 

[Mr. Superhero]

I know that there are more things to focus on insanity then eating poo, I just used those as an example.

Now, just because the Joker chose to kill endlessly, does that make him insane? I think that there are many sane people who kill. The court system does as well, since we sentence many serial killers to jail or a lethal injection rather then lock them up in an Asylum.

But you fail to see that the Joker is more than just your average "murderer". He's more than that. His motives are deeper. His mental state is on a completely different level. This guy performs crimes that would disturb even the likes of Alex DeLarge. I mean, if the Joker's not insane, then what is he?

Sane?

1. Of sound mind; mentally healthy: "their protector, the strongest and sanest of them all" Pat Conroy.2. Having or showing sound judgment; reasonable.

This doesn't sound like an accurate description of the Joker to me.

1. a. Of, exhibiting, or afflicted with insanity.
b. Characteristic of or associated with persons afflicted with insanity: an insane laugh; insane babbling.
c. Intended for use by such persons: an insane asylum.

2. Immoderate; wild: insane jealousy.
3. Very foolish; absurd: took insane risks behind the wheel.

This sounds more like an accurate description of the Joker. Hell, I can't even believe that I have to go as far as pulling out the dictionary definitions to show that the Joker is mentally deranged. Is the Joker thinking straight? No. The guy is totally nuts. To want to kill, endlessly -- to draw utmost amusement from putting guns to people's heads and blowing their brains out -- you must be mentally ill.

It is as simple as that.

On the other hand, I do think that there are some killers who are insane.

And how the Joker isn't one of them, according to you, I do not know.

Even the official poster of The Killing Joke recognizes the Joker's insanity.

"A cold, hard look into the terror and violence of insanity."

"Beyond evil there is insanity, beyond insanity there is the Joker."

Seriously, what more do you need? The dictionary definitions support the notion that the Joker is mentally deranged, all unofficial sources claim the guy to be insane, and even the poster of TKJ points out the deep insanity within this Joker character.

I think you have to decide if the Joker is a sociopath, or crazy. I wouldn't say a sociopath is insane, they just have no feeling for right or wrong. In some stories I think the Joker resembles more of a sociopath then an insane person. Then in other stories he definitely seems insane.

The Joker is both! Here is a definition of "sociopath":

One who is affected with a personality disorder marked by antisocial behavior.

Man, this is how you would describe the Joker character? A man with a simple "personality disorder"? The guy is far beyond that...hell, according to TKJ slogan, he is far beyond insanity...

 

[Infinity9999x]

I'm not missing any point.

There is nothing in the story to support your theorey. Especially when we see Joker on his own in his lair laughing to himself about how they'll soon give into him and give him the legal claim he desires.
Then he stops and says to himself "What if they conspire against me and stop eating fish? What if they leave them in the sea?". Then he smiles and says "No, that would never work. The vegetarians would never go along with it. Besides, I could always use my toxin on cattle.....JOKER BURGERS!!!".

His focus was very much getting the legal claim to the fish. Not the killing. An insane scheme cooked up by an insane mind.

Simple as that.



But that's not The Joker. If he's planning a mass murder, he'll say so. If he has a specific goal, he'll say so.



Borat is not The Joker. Borat made a movie to make money. Joker entertains himself.



Right.

He wasn't doing it because he felt like he wanted to torture an old man and cripple a girl. He had a goal. It was a means to his end.

Just like killing those copyright people was.



Nonsense.

That is pure speculation on your part. And as I said above, all the elements in that story point AGAINST that.



Yes, I can see that. Although I imagine Steve Englehart might be a little frustrated with you if he read this. "Did I not make it clear enough that Joker wanted his Joker fish to be legalized? This was not about killing"

If Joker wants to kill people, he'll do just that. He doesn't disguise it with some hokey half baked goal like legalizing Joker fish. He'll outright announce that he plans a mass slaughter for fun.



How did you miss the simple point of The Laughing Fish? It was never ever about that. About killing helpless people.

Joker simply chose that method because it was the funniest way to reach his goal. It was a means to an end. His focus was always, repeat always on the fish.

He wouldn't even have touched G. Carl Francis if they gave into his demands. It was never about the killing.



Couldn't disagree more. His total surprise and anger when he is refused, followed by his rant about Colonel Sanders having chickens, was ample proof that he thought his request was perfectly reasonable.

Maybe I'm jumbling the TAS and the original story too much. But I remember one of the copyright people asking Batman "why is he doing this to me? I'm a nobody." To which Batman responds "Yes, and in his sick mind, that's the Joke."

That's where I'm drawing my conclusions about this story. But that may have been a line thrown in in the TAS that wasn't present in the cartoon, in which case, yes there would be no evidence to support my claim. And the laughing Fish would be one of those stories where the Joker is just nuts.

But in other stories the Joker resembles more of a sociopath then an insane person. Someone who just likes to hurt people (in creative ways) and doesn't care if it's right or wrong.

I'm not really partial on either take on the character. I personally prefer him as a crazy person, because I've always liked the idea that the Joker used to be a good guy before he had the accident that turned him into the Joker.

But like I said before, it's not a completely...crazy question. Wasn't there an arc a while back where a lawyer was trying to say that the Joker was only pretending to be insane in order to avoid the death penalty?

If you want to go with the sociopath characterization of the Joker (which I think makes him seem that much more evil) then I think that fits. If the Joker wanted to live, then he'd have to convince people that he was crazy, in which case stories like the Laughing Fish would be because he was trying to convince people he was nuts.

And yes, I do know that theres no evidence in The Laughing Fish to support that it was all an act by the Joker. But I'm just saying that it's a valid take on the character. I'm not saying he is one way or the other, because, like I said, I don't mind either version.

 

[Infinity9999x]

But you fail to see that the Joker is more than just your average "murderer". He's more than that. His motives are deeper. His mental state is on a completely different level. This guy performs crimes that would disturb even the likes of Alex DeLarge. I mean, if the Joker's not insane, then what is he?

Sane?

1. Of sound mind; mentally healthy: "their protector, the strongest and sanest of them all" Pat Conroy.2. Having or showing sound judgment; reasonable.

This doesn't sound like an accurate description of the Joker to me.

1. a. Of, exhibiting, or afflicted with insanity.
b. Characteristic of or associated with persons afflicted with insanity: an insane laugh; insane babbling.
c. Intended for use by such persons: an insane asylum.

2. Immoderate; wild: insane jealousy.
3. Very foolish; absurd: took insane risks behind the wheel.

This sounds more like an accurate description of the Joker. Hell, I can't even believe that I have to go as far as pulling out the dictionary definitions to show that the Joker is mentally deranged. Is the Joker thinking straight? No. The guy is totally nuts. To want to kill, endlessly -- to draw utmost amusement from putting guns to people's heads and blowing their brains out -- you must be mentally ill.

It is as simple as that.


And how the Joker isn't one of them, according to you, I do not know.

Even the official poster of The Killing Joke recognizes the Joker's insanity.

"A cold, hard look into the terror and violence of insanity."

"Beyond evil there is insanity, beyond insanity there is the Joker."

Seriously, what more do you need? The dictionary definitions support the notion that the Joker is mentally deranged, all unofficial sources claim the guy to be insane, and even the poster of TKJ points out the deep insanity within this Joker character.


The Joker is both! Here is a definition of "sociopath":

One who is affected with a personality disorder marked by antisocial behavior.

Man, this is how you would describe the Joker character? A man with a simple "personality disorder"? The guy is far beyond that...hell, according to TKJ slogan, he is far beyond insanity...

Like I said below, I think a valid interpretation of the Joker is one where the Joker is simply a sociopath who pretends to be insane so he'll never go to the gas chamber. The Joker certainly seems intelligent enough to pull this off.

I'm not trying to say the Joker is or isn't one way, I'm just saying it's an interpretation.

Besides, wasn't it you that told me every interpretation of the Joker is just as valid as the next?t:

 

[Mr. Superhero]

Like I said below, I think a valid interpretation of the Joker is one where the Joker is simply a sociopath who pretends to be insane so he'll never go to the gas chamber. The Joker certainly seems intelligent enough to pull this off.

I'm not trying to say the Joker is or isn't one way, I'm just saying it's an interpretation.

Besides, wasn't it you that told me every interpretation of the Joker is just as valid as the next?t:

But there comes a point when one is simply not pretending any more. The Joker commits the crimes that he commits because he wants to. If the Joker pretends to be insane, then are you implying that he pretends to enjoy killing people? I mean, I'm sure the cops are fully aware that any criminal could turn around and say "I'm insane" and thus dodge the death penalty -- but the Joker's actions imply that he is genuinely insane. Couple that with the fact that the Joker has never even hinted at notion that he "pretends" to be insane, and I think we've got a total maniacal, mentally deranged, sociopath on our hands.

There's simply no evidence to suggest that the Joker pretends to be insane. It's much more true to the comics to believe that the Joker fell into the vat of chemicals, saw what he had become, and through that became genuinely insane by nature. He had one bad day, and lost his mind. One day he was rational; the next day he was totally irrational. All the symptoms of someone whom has fallen into the pits of insanity. I don't know many criminals who can fly a plane, battle Batman simultaneously, all while making a great, big joke of the situation. That's how senseless the Joker is.

As Batman would say: "You're insane."
As the Joker would reply: "Has it really taken you this long to notice?"

I see your point, but it just doesn't work for me.

 

[Doctor Baywatch]

But in your precious "original vision" of the Joker in #1 he killed for wealth.

 

[Mr. Superhero]

But in your precious "original vision" of the Joker in #1 he killed for wealth.

Firstly, not once have I said that my favorite interpretation of the character was the original version. And secondly, I suppose you've never heard the term "character evolution"?

 

[Infinity9999x]

But there comes a point when one is simply not pretending any more. The Joker commits the crimes that he commits because he wants to. If the Joker pretends to be insane, then are you implying that he pretends to enjoy killing people? I mean, I'm sure the cops are fully aware that any criminal could turn around and say "I'm insane" and thus dodge the death penalty -- but the Joker's actions imply that he is genuinely insane. Couple that with the fact that the Joker has never even hinted at notion that he "pretends" to be insane, and I think we've got a total maniacal, mentally deranged, sociopath on our hands.

I don't think that if one enjoys killing that it makes them insane. Or at least the kind of insane to get them to doge the death penalty. Many mass murderers that obviously enjoyed killing have received the death penalty. Why? Because they knew what they were doing was wrong, and they did it anyway. They were competent in everything, they just liked killing. I don't think that makes you insane, I think it makes you a sociopath. A person who no moral boundries.

There's simply no evidence to suggest that the Joker pretends to be insane. It's much more true to the comics to believe that the Joker fell into the vat of chemicals, saw what he had become, and through that became genuinely insane by nature. He had one bad day, and lost his mind. One day he was rational; the next day he was totally irrational. All the symptoms of someone whom has fallen into the pits of insanity.

There's some evidence, there's the arc where a lawyer actually tried to prove Joker wasn't insane. (Does anyone know the name of it?) So obviously some people in the comic world share this train of thought.

And really, if a person does something that's irrational to prove a rational point, does it make them irrational?

And yes, while there is evidence to support that the Joker was a normal man who had an accident and went crazy, there have also been stories portraying the Joker as a sociopath from the time he was a child, and that description better fits someone who likes to kill people (albeit in creative ways) and pretends to be a psychopath to avoid the death penalty.

As Batman would say: "You're insane."
As the Joker would reply: "Has it really taken you this long to notice?"

I see your point, but it just doesn't work for me.

That's perfectly fine. It doesn't have to work for you, that's why everyone has different interpretations of the characters, they find what works for them. I'm just saying that it's another valid interpretation, and as you said all interpretations are valid.

 

[Mr. Superhero]

I don't think that if one enjoys killing that it makes them insane. Or at least the kind of insane to get them to doge the death penalty. Many mass murderers that obviously enjoyed killing have received the death penalty. Why? Because they knew what they were doing was wrong, and they did it anyway. They were competent in everything, they just liked killing. I don't think that makes you insane, I think it makes you a sociopath. A person who no moral boundries.

Do you know why this is frustrating? Because when I make a long post, supporting my views with quotes and examples, you make puny replies, like, "The Joker, uh, just pretends." And then when I point something out -- when I try to expand on my views -- you start reverting back to square one...

Anyone who enjoys killing is insane. Do you seriously not see this? You seem to be pushing this notion that anyone who enjoys killing, but knows that it is inherently wrong, is not insane. I'm sorry, but if you enjoy killing, then you're just mentally ill.

For example, there was a story in the news recently of a father who raped his baby girl followed by viciously murdering her. Do you know why he did that? To get back at his wife for leaving him. Some of the Joker's crimes are almost as horrific as that, and he usually performs them on a regular basis, and are you telling me that that guy who raped his OWN DAUGHTER was not insane? Because, I can tell you for a fact that he probably knew that was he was doing was wrong.

Still doesn't change the fact that he was mentally ill and deserves to be given the death penalty. The Joker is just the same.

There's some evidence, there's the arc where a lawyer actually tried to prove Joker wasn't insane. (Does anyone know the name of it?) So obviously some people in the comic world share this train of thought.

There's obviously going to be a few writers who are going to try to throw the fans off, but it is by no means conclusive, now, is it? It's just a puny attempt to gain some publicity.

The Joker is probably the most insane villain residing within the comic-book genre. There is no one quite like him. If he isn't insane, then you are surely implying that he is sane...?

And really, if a person does something that's irrational to prove a rational point, does it make them irrational?

But why in God's name did Joker have to prove a point? No one forced him to do that. He did that out of his own free will. He attempted to drive Gordon insane because that's kind of stuff that gets him off. Why? Because the guy is totally nuts! What else can you say? The Joker tried to prove that he is what he is because he had one bad day, and insists that it can happen to anyone. That, in of itself, proves that the Joker is insane, because he believes that the same kind of treatment can drive Gordon insane.

It basically speaks for itself. If the Joker wasn't insane, then why would TKJ slogan insist that the Joker is beyond insanity? And do you know what proves that the Joker is beyond insanity? His actions. Everything the Joker does in that book is an act of a raging madman -- a man who is totally deluded and mentally ill. A man who actually enjoys shooting people, taking pictures of them and then showing those pictures to people in an attempt to make them lose their mind.

This is not the face of a sane person who is totally in control:

And yes, while there is evidence to support that the Joker was a normal man who had an accident and went crazy, there have also been stories portraying the Joker as a sociopath from the time he was a child, and that description better fits someone who likes to kill people (albeit in creative ways) and pretends to be a psychopath to avoid the death penalty.

So, according to you, Joker is merely suffering from an anti-social disorder? Dude, please; there's more to him than that. I don't know what else to say. Just read "The Killing Joke".

That's perfectly fine. It doesn't have to work for you, that's why everyone has different interpretations of the characters, they find what works for them. I'm just saying that it's another valid interpretation, and as you said all interpretations are valid.

I know it's your interpretation, but that doesn't exclude one's interpretation from being contested.

 

[itsthebatman]

Just on a technical point: everyone who is insane is mentally ill, but not everyone who is mentally ill is insane. They are not synonyms.
In general, I agree with your point. Joker is insane, IMO. But my favourite quote on the matter is from Jason Todd in Under the Hodd, where he says (and I paraphrase from memory):
'Your secret, Joker, is that you are insane, just not as insane as you'd like us to believe; it makes it easier for you to justify the terrible things you've done.'

 

[Mr. Superhero]

Just on a technical point: everyone who is insane is mentally ill, but not everyone who is mentally ill is insane. They are not synonyms.
In general, I agree with your point. Joker is insane, IMO. But my favourite quote on the matter is from Jason Todd in Under the Hodd, where he says (and I paraphrase from memory):
'Your secret, Joker, is that you are insane, just not as insane as you'd like us to believe; it makes it easier for you to justify the terrible things you've done.'

What was Joker's reply?

 

[itsthebatman]

What was Joker's reply?

His smile turned to a frown, and Todd then started laughing 'Who's smiling now! Hahaha!'
Take from that what you will.

 

[Infinity9999x]

Do you know why this is frustrating? Because when I make a long post, supporting my views with quotes and examples, you make puny replies, like, "The Joker, uh, just pretends." And then when I point something out -- when I try to expand on my views -- you start reverting back to square one...

Anyone who enjoys killing is insane. Do you seriously not see this? You seem to be pushing this notion that anyone who enjoys killing, but knows that it is inherently wrong, is not insane. I'm sorry, but if you enjoy killing, then you're just mentally ill.

I disagree with that notion, and I said that in my previous post. Many people today have posted definitions on insanity, and none, NONE of them said, "one who enjoys killing."

Now, I'm not saying it's okay to enjoy killing. It's not, it's wrong. But that relates to morals, not sanity. We believe it is morally wrong to kill, so a person who enjoys killing is morally wrong, not insane.

A person who enjoys killing does not need to have a deranged sense of the world. They don't have to have multiple personalities or hear voices. Sometimes we hope they do because it gives us a reason to explain why these people do what they do. But sometimes, people are born with no moral compass, and they simply enjoy killing. This is NOT insanity, this is SOCIOPATHY.

Do you see the difference? An insane person perceives the world in a completely different way then we do. A way we can't understand. A sociopath perceives the world the same as us. They know what's right, they know what's wrong, they know you don't crow like a chicken and dance naked in the street, they don't hear voices or see people who aren't there.
They just enjoy killing.

And as disconcerting as that may be, it's life.

in the news recently of a father who raped his baby girl followed by viciously murdering her. Do you know why he did that? To get back at his wife for leaving him. Some of the Joker's crimes are almost as horrific as that, and he usually performs them on a regular basis, and are you telling me that that guy who raped his OWN DAUGHTER was not insane? Because, I can tell you for a fact that he probably knew that was he was doing was wrong.

That has nothing to do with my point. Yes that man is insane. His reasoning is skewed, and his sense of right and wrong is completely off.

A sociopath on the other hand, could do the same thing, but do it for no reason other then they felt like it. They know it's wrong, and they don't need to try and justify it the way this man did. They simply have no moral compass. Do you see the difference?

This man is insane because he now is viewing the world in a tilted view. He has to use skewed logic to justify them. The way he perceives life has been altered. A sociopath would know what they did was bad, but just do it because they wanted to.

Still doesn't change the fact that he was mentally ill and deserves to be given the death penalty. The Joker is just the same.

There's obviously going to be a few writers who are going to try to throw the fans off, but it is by no means conclusive, now, is it? It's just a puny attempt to gain some publicity.

The Joker is probably the most insane villain residing within the comic-book genre. There is no one quite like him. If he isn't insane, then you are surely implying that he is sane...?

I'm implying that he is sane, but also a sociopath. I thought I made that clear.

However, I'm not trying to say that the Joker is this way 100% of the time. I actually prefer him to be the guy that was driven mad after a crappy life and one bad accident. But I don't mind this other point of view either.

But why in God's name did Joker have to prove a point? No one forced him to do that. He did that out of his own free will. He attempted to drive Gordon insane because that's kind of stuff that gets him off.

I hope you're not trying to imply that Joker wasn't trying to prove a point. He says it himself.

"You see, it doesnt' matter if you catch me and send me back to the asylum....Gordon's been driven mad. I've proved my point.
I've demonstrated there's no difference between me and everyone else! All it takes is one bad day to reduce the sanest man alive to lunacy."

If you think Joker did all that to Gordon just to get his rocks off then you completely missed the entire point of that book. Everything he did was to prove his point.

Why? Because the guy is totally nuts! What else can you say? The Joker tried to prove that he is what he is because he had one bad day, and insists that it can happen to anyone. That, in of itself, proves that the Joker is insane, because he believes that the same kind of treatment can drive Gordon insane.

It basically speaks for itself. If the Joker wasn't insane, then why would TKJ slogan insist that the Joker is beyond insanity? And do you know what proves that the Joker is beyond insanity? His actions. Everything the Joker does in that book is an act of a raging madman -- a man who is totally deluded and mentally ill. A man who actually enjoys shooting people, taking pictures of them and then showing those pictures to people in an attempt to make them lose their mind.

As I proved above, Joker did all he did in TKJ to prove a point. All the actions he did could be the same actions of a sociopath who likes to hurt people and wants to prove a point. His actions do not make him insane. It's his perception of the world. If the Joker sees the world the same as us, but simply likes to hurt people, then he's a sociopath.

If the Joker sees the world through a completely different view, one that makes no sense and is not comprehensible to us, then he's crazy.

This is not the face of a sane person who is totally in control:

So, according to you, Joker is merely suffering from an anti-social disorder? Dude, please; there's more to him than that. I don't know what else to say. Just read "The Killing Joke".


I know it's your interpretation, but that doesn't exclude one's interpretation from being contested.

A Sociopath is not merely a anti-social disorder. It's a person who has no moral compass. A person with no conscience. They could do the most horrible deeds alive and it won't bother them.

And it's not just my interpretation, as I said above, I enjoy both takes on the character.

 

[Mr. Superhero]

His smile turned to a frown, and Todd then started laughing 'Who's smiling now! Hahaha!'
Take from that what you will.

Depends on the writer, I suppose. Alan Moore's Joker would have given Jason Todd a b***h-slap.

 

[titan101]

Depends on the writer, I suppose. Alan Moore's Joker would have given Jason Todd a b***h-slap.

well , since he was tied up the whole time , he wouldn't be able to do that either way .