The Dark Knight I guess joker just applies make-up after all

[Nightwing1977]

Spoiler

Now ask me why!

Why not?

It doesn't really matter to me, it's still the Joker regardless.

Yep. Plus, the makeup still give him the same color look (even if not a lot like the permawhite) & he is still a homicide maniac. That is what make the Joker.

 

[adamwe]

I'm talking about a man being yanked on a cable by a train going 100+ miles per hour. That's enough to tear him apart.


What I'm saying is, there is no way a gun that small could shoot a cable that was the necessary size to hold a man (which, in the movie, it wasn't thick enough), plus be able to reel him up at such a high speed.

The Mythbusters did a test on superhero myths a few months ago, and grappling guns were one of those tested. It worked, but barely. And the grappling guns themselves were the size of crossbows.


And, as I said, if these other real-life consequences can be ignored, why can't those of permawhite?

Please, tell me, honestly, had Nolan gone with permawhite, would you be sitting here, shaking your head, going "But that would cause at least permanent blindness! Bad move, Nolan. What a shame it couldn't have been makeup."

You made your point. Meanwhile I'm still gonna watch and enjoy seeing a new version of the joker.

 

[Prefix]

You made your point. Meanwhile I'm still gonna watch and enjoy seeing a new version of the joker.

You've made three posts and you're already being a condescending jackass. Don't take the high and mighty approach just because the debate isn't going the way you hoped.

Just because he dares to see the Joker differently from Nolan, doesn't mean he won't let himself enjoy the movie.

 

[adamwe]

You've made three posts and you're already being a condescending jackass. Don't take the high and mighty approach just because the debate isn't going the way you hoped.

Just because he dares to see the Joker differently from Nolan, doesn't mean he won't let himself enjoy the movie.

My argument was dying, what would you have me do?
Incidentally does anyone have any thoughts on how two face should look?

 

[adamwe]

Batman Begins was not realistic. Not even "to some degree". It's no more realistic than B'89. But it's the way in which the movie was presented that allowed you to suspend your disbelief. A Microwave Emitter? Would have fried the innards any human being within a mile.

I did a little research since you wrote that. I found this article on microwaves that seem to invalidate your statement concerning the microwave emitter.[/QUOTE]Cooking food with microwaves was discovered by Percy Spencer while building magnetrons for radar sets at Raytheon. He was working on an active radar set when he noticed a strange sensation, and saw that a peanut chocolate bar he had in his pocket started to melt. Although he was not the first to notice this phenomenon, as the holder of 120 patents, Spencer was no stranger to discovery and experiment, and realized what was happening. The radar had melted his candy bar with microwaves. The first food to be deliberately cooked with microwaves was popcorn, and the second was an egg, which exploded in the face of one of the experimenters.[1] To be sure his theories were correct, Dr. Spencer then created a high density electromagnetic field by feeding microwave power into a metal box which it had no way to escape. When food was placed in the box with the microwave energy, the temperature of the food rose rapidly."[/QUOTE]
With this in mind I don't think the innards of anyone within a mile of the emitter would be fried unless they were directly in it's line of sight. Otherwise I don't think the microwave oven would ever been invented.

 

[Eggyman]

My argument was dying, what would you have me do?
Incidentally does anyone have any thoughts on how two face should look?

Yeah! Half of his face should be disfigured

I'm not too bothered about the suit he wears.

 

[Slipping_Halo]

Incredible. Over 700 messages debating whether the Joker should be permawhite or not in TDK. Well here's my take on it. In spite of what the fan boys want, Nolan can't make a permawhite Joker in his series. Why? Because everything in BB was plausible to some degree. His costume could realistically be made of body armor. The tumbler was actually a vehicle built for the movie. Even the material for his cape, while not known to exist, is not a scientific impossibility. All the elements are grounded in reality. (The only possible exception would be centered around the microwave emitter, it would have irradiated half the population before vaporizing the water supply) The idea of someone being immersed in chemicals powerful enough to render them pure white (while leaving their lips red) and turning their hair green (without burning a strand out), without killing them or at least causing permanent blindness is utterly ridiculous. After all, it been pointed out the numerous elements of the Batman mythos have been altered when presented in other mediums. 1966 Batman used a red phone instead of a "Batsignal". It also had an "Aunt Harriet" to deflect questions about Robin sexuality. Frank Miller defied the Batman legend by having James Gordon meet Batman long before he became commissioner. 1989 Batman had a build only slightly larger than Vickie Vale. And let's not mention Burton's Penguin. The point of all of this being that Nolan has to create a Joker that could exist in the real world, not the comic world. In the real world the only way the Joker could be permawhite head to toe is to have him visit Michael Jackson's dermatologist.

With all due respect, that's complete BS. Frank Miller himself has said that nobody really cares about realism when it comes to comic book movies. We don't want to see the pitstains on Superman's costume, we just wanna see him fly.

Yes, Nolan's vision was of a realistic world-albeit a "hyper" realistic one, but that doesn't mean the permawhite doesn't work. First of all and most importantly, it's still a comic book movie no matter how realistic it is. Secondly, there is no Joker origin in the film from what I understand; no explanation as to who he is/was, where he came from, or how he got that way. The reality lies in the explanation. Therefore, if there is no explanation to be had, there is no problem. The Joker just shows up with green hair, big, red lips in a permanent rictus grin, and white skin. No explanation, he just looks like a freak. That works for me. I doubt anyone would walk out of the theater going, "yeah it was cool...but what's the deal with that guy's white skin?"

Besides, is it really that implausible? Freakier things have happened in reality. Side shows have made a fortune off of it for ages. If you take away the admittedly outlandish origin story for the way Joker came to be, there is no excuse in my mind for not having him look the way he should.

That said, I still dig the look and can't wait to see the movie.

P.S. - Does anyone have a high res version of the fourth movie poster (the one with Joker behind the glass writing "why so serious" in blood)? I've been looking everywhere but I couldn't find one.

 

[Dirt Like Me]

My argument was dying, what would you have me do?

Endure.

Yeah! Half of his face should be disfigured

I'm not too bothered about the suit he wears.

But there's no way that a chemical could burn off half of a man's face and not leave him blind. (I'm kidding).

Anyway, I'm glad to see that this thread has been revived, it deserves to hit the 20,000 mark before the plug is pulled.

And, as usual in this thread, I agree with nickyg one hundred percent. I'm still psyched for the movie, but part of me will always question why Nolan decided to go this route: My guess is to distinguish Ledger's Joker from Nicholson's, and maybe that's a valid concern. But I still disagree with the choice.

 

[namtaB]

Incredible. Over 700 messages debating whether the Joker should be permawhite or not in TDK. Well here's my take on it. In spite of what the fan boys want, Nolan can't make a permawhite Joker in his series. Why? Because everything in BB was plausible to some degree. His costume could realistically be made of body armor. The tumbler was actually a vehicle built for the movie. Even the material for his cape, while not known to exist, is not a scientific impossibility. All the elements are grounded in reality. (The only possible exception would be centered around the microwave emitter, it would have irradiated half the population before vaporizing the water supply) The idea of someone being immersed in chemicals powerful enough to render them pure white (while leaving their lips red) and turning their hair green (without burning a strand out), without killing them or at least causing permanent blindness is utterly ridiculous. After all, it been pointed out the numerous elements of the Batman mythos have been altered when presented in other mediums. 1966 Batman used a red phone instead of a "Batsignal". It also had an "Aunt Harriet" to deflect questions about Robin sexuality. Frank Miller defied the Batman legend by having James Gordon meet Batman long before he became commissioner. 1989 Batman had a build only slightly larger than Vickie Vale. And let's not mention Burton's Penguin. The point of all of this being that Nolan has to create a Joker that could exist in the real world, not the comic world. In the real world the only way the Joker could be permawhite head to toe is to have him visit Michael Jackson's dermatologist.

My advice is to duck, hoss.

 

[Mister J]

I did a little research since you wrote that. I found this article on microwaves that seem to invalidate your statement concerning the microwave emitter.

Cooking food with microwaves was discovered by Percy Spencer while building magnetrons for radar sets at Raytheon. He was working on an active radar set when he noticed a strange sensation, and saw that a peanut chocolate bar he had in his pocket started to melt. Although he was not the first to notice this phenomenon, as the holder of 120 patents, Spencer was no stranger to discovery and experiment, and realized what was happening. The radar had melted his candy bar with microwaves. The first food to be deliberately cooked with microwaves was popcorn, and the second was an egg, which exploded in the face of one of the experimenters.[1] To be sure his theories were correct, Dr. Spencer then created a high density electromagnetic field by feeding microwave power into a metal box which it had no way to escape. When food was placed in the box with the microwave energy, the temperature of the food rose rapidly."

With this in mind I don't think the innards of anyone within a mile of the emitter would be fried unless they were directly in it's line of sight. Otherwise I don't think the microwave oven would ever been invented.

We're talking about a device that uses microwaves at such a high temperature/frequency that it evaporates water on contact; a military grade application. That's a bit more powerful than the run of the mill type of radiation that's involved when I get ready to make some Orville Reddenbacher.

To have a machine that powerful that doesn't affect the water inside a person's body or produce massive scalding from the resultant steam created in execution of its purpose, involves a huge stretch of reality; which is fine, because it's a movie. Beyond that, it's a superhero movie. Of course, things that are truly implausible in reality will be featured. Bruce would have gotten his arm ripped out of the socket when he attached his grapple to the train, the gliding function of the cape defies Zeus knows how many laws of physics and I'm thinking someone involved in production, other than Lucious Fox, would recognize the big ass tank on wheels that's flying on rooftops since it was all over the news. Batman Begins is hardly 'realistic'.

Nolan chose to have the Joker wear make-up, not because he couldn't find a way to logically incorporate it into the film, but rather as a stylistic choice that fit the story he wanted to tell. The first film features numerous presentations that are equally such or are in far excess of a deviation from reality. For all of the issues I have with some of Nolan's approach to this franchise, I haven't seen him reference anything other than '"heightened realism", which represents a grand difference than what some of his more vigorous defenders and supporters claim it to be.

 

[Eggyman]

Endure.



But there's no way that a chemical could burn off half of a man's face and not leave him blind. (I'm kidding).

Anyway, I'm glad to see that this thread has been revived, it deserves to hit the 20,000 mark before the plug is pulled.

And, as usual in this thread, I agree with nickyg one hundred percent. I'm still psyched for the movie, but part of me will always question why Nolan decided to go this route: My guess is to distinguish Ledger's Joker from Nicholson's, and maybe that's a valid concern. But I still disagree with the choice.

I can't really see that as a reason. I mean they're both playing the same character - the difference is in the subtleties of the characterisation because the look would be different from Jack's, perma or non-perma

 

[Eggyman]

We're talking about a device that uses microwaves at such a high temperature/frequency that it evaporates water on contact; a military grade application. That's a bit more powerful than the run of the mill type of radiation that's involved when I get ready to make some Orville Reddenbacher.

To have a machine that powerful that doesn't affect the water inside a person's body or produce massive scalding from the resultant steam created in execution of its purpose, involves a huge stretch of reality; which is fine, because it's a movie. Beyond that, it's a superhero movie. Of course, things that are truly implausible in reality will be featured. Bruce would have gotten his arm ripped out of the socket when he attached his grapple to the train, the gliding function of the cape defies Zeus knows how many laws of physics and I'm thinking someone involved in production, other than Lucious Fox, would recognize the big ass tank on wheels that's flying on rooftops since it was all over the news. Batman Begins is hardly 'realistic'.

Nolan chose to have the Joker wear make-up, not because he couldn't find a way to logically incorporate it into the film, but rather as a stylistic choice that fit the story he wanted to tell. The first film features numerous presentations that are equally such or are in far excess of a deviation from reality. For all of the issues I have with some of Nolan's approach to this franchise, I haven't seen him reference anything other than '"heightened realism", which represents a grand difference than what some of his more vigorous defenders and supporters claim it to be.

The train thing always bugs me. It doesn't make sense how the grapple can attatch to the train and he can get dragged along without getting tangled in the supporting frames. It's like his grapple line just passes right through them

Now TH^T's nitpicking

 

[guitarkhero311]

Batman Begins was not realistic. Not even "to some degree". It's no more realistic than B'89.

Joker killing a guy buy throwing, and I repeat, throwing a feather at a guys neck is not realistic. The batcave was not realistic. The parade was not realistic. Joker dancing to Prince is not realistic. Now the list can go on but the fact remains, Batman Begins had realistic qualities, better than 89. Both movies are fantasy and not to realistic, but if you had to choose, honestly Batman Begins would be a better real life scenario. But anyway, the whole permawhite argument, Nolan did not choose to portray the Joker in the way he is doing on the count of realism. He just wants a scary, super insane villain and found in his mind the best way to deliver that to us. The Joker is like Jaws, he's just there, ready to kick ass and kill folks. Jaws did not focus on why the shark was eating everyone and why it was so pissed off at the world, it just showed him eatin motha ****as. That is why Nolan chose to do this, the realism argument is out, done. The Joker being the way he is is Nolan's way of making him the most efficient, scary as balls villain, like he has always been.

 

[Dirt Like Me]

I can't really see that as a reason. I mean they're both playing the same character - the difference is in the subtleties of the characterisation because the look would be different from Jack's, perma or non-perma

Obviously, I agree that there are other ways to distinguish the two versions of the character. But I think that this drastic of a change in the look really serves to obliterate all comparisons. People will see this Joker (with his makeup running) in the commericals and they'll know that it's not going to be anything like 1989.

Maybe it's not just the Nicholson thing, but to me this reeks of change for change's sake.

 

[Eggyman]

Begins had verisimilitude. It was fantasy set in a real-esque world. But that doesn't make a guy jumping from roof to roof in a tank realistic.

 

[Eggyman]

Obviously, I agree that there are other ways to distinguish the two versions of the character. But I think that this drastic of a change in the look really serves to obliterate all comparisons. People will see this Joker (with his makeup running) in the commericals and they'll know that it's not going to be anything like 1989.

Maybe it's not just the Nicholson thing, but to me this reeks of change for change's sake.

I can see your point, and it's certainly possible that what you've mentioned could have been a factor. I see it more as it getting bogged down by the word the majority of us now are sick of: realism

 

[adamwe]

I'm talking about a man being yanked on a cable by a train going 100+ miles per hour. That's enough to tear him apart.

By the way, how do you know how fast the train was moving? After all, 100 mph on those curves translates into 146 feet per second. That would cover a city block in 2-3 seconds. Look at the film again-- was batman moving that fast.

 

[Sidepocket]

I can see your point, and it's certainly possible that what you've mentioned could have been a factor. I see it more as it getting bogged down by the word the majority of us now are sick of: realism

Its not realism at all, its common sense and a new direction. Realism does not even factor in here.

 

[Eggyman]

Well if you say so, I guess I'll have to change my opinion

 

[Mister J]

By the way, how do you know how fast the train was moving? After all, 100 mph on those curves translates into 146 feet per second. That would cover a city block in 2-3 seconds. Look at the film again-- was batman moving that fast.

I'm near certain nicky referenced 100 mph simply as a round number, designed to imply a high rate of speed. Pinpointing the exact speed of the train is largely irrelevant. The fact is that the train was moving rapidly enough to cause definitive injury if someone latched a grapple to it from a stand-still position, regardless of what body armor he was wearing. It's movie magic.

 

[Dirt Like Me]

Its not realism at all, its common sense and a new direction. Realism does not even factor in here.

I don't understand how common sense factors into a decision to make a comic book character who has historically had white skin into a comic book character who applies makeup to get his white skin.

Personal taste? Maybe. Common sense? I'm not seeing it.

 

[adamwe]

I'm near certain nicky referenced 100 mph simply as a round number, designed to imply a high rate of speed. Pinpointing the exact speed of the train is largely irrelevant. The fact is that the train was moving rapidly enough to cause definitive injury if someone latched a grapple to it from a stand-still position, regardless of what body armor he was wearing. It's movie magic.

He said 100 mph. If the train was moving anywhere near that speed Ra's would be thrown against the wall on every turn. I based my argument on known factors, so should he!!!

 

[Prefix]

Joker dancing to Prince is not realistic.

I could put some Prince music on right now, and start dancing just like the Joker did.

 

[guitarkhero311]

I could put some Prince music on right now, and start dancing just like the Joker did.

Holy ****..........Is your name also Jack Napier?

 

[Eggyman]

I could put some Prince music on right now, and start dancing just like the Joker did.

Prefix! Let's broaden our minds - Laurence . . .