Fant4stic I think this deserves its own thread...Josh Trank denounces Fantastic Four

[TeeKay]

Toxic relationships between corporations tend to be exaggerated. It is like politics. Why do you think Donald Trump and the Clintons are so close personally while Donald spews hatred at them publicly? Because it is a game. The relationship between Marvel and Fox is similar. There is no real ill will. Just corporate dick measuring. If a deal is profitable for both, they will cut a deal. Also, keep in mind, Disney, not Marvel, will ultimately make the call. Kevin Feige may hate Fox. Marvel may shut down an entire comic line to spite Fox. But if Disney sees profitability, they will jump on it.

At this point with the way the FF is bombing at the B.O? There's no profitability here for either studios. I know Fox has to pay a certain percentage of whatever box office money they make on the film to Marvel. See the thing with the Spiderman deal is that well its Spiderman. No matter how awful the films may get, they still make money and given how much Disney made alone in merchandizing with that property, it was foolish for them not to cut a deal with Sony. The FF is way different as we can see. The next couple months are certainly gonna be interesting.

 

[sleekstereo]

I agree with Matt, a Sony type deal is the best option for Marvel and Fox.

Fox bank rolls stand alone Fantastic Four films, Disney/Marvel wouldn't have to pay for anything.

Marvel controls the production of films as well as using all the characters in their films.

If it works out, which is probably will. They can then move forward on how to incorporate the X-Men, and the X-Men is who Marvel REALLY wants.

 

[sleekstereo]

The big factor in Marvel's willingness to make a deal over Spider-Man is that they hold the merchandising and Spider-Man sells more than Batman and Superman combined. A good Spider-man film is great for merchandising which is good for Marvel. Without that big merchandising Marvel has far less incentive to make deals with Fox.

Fox doesn't even have merchandising now. IMO, Marvel wins there. Fox will need to give up merchandising percentages for Fantastic Four, and really it is income they don't even have.

 

[I SEE SPIDEY]

I don't think Marvel should make a Sony type deal with Fox because the FF aren't a even half as popular as Spider-Man.

 

[TeeKay]

I don't think Marvel should make a Sony type deal with Fox because the FF aren't a even half as popular as Spider-Man.

Exactly.

 

[Matt]

It doesn't have to be as profitable as Spider-Man to be profitable. It is most expedient way to move forward for both companies, it results in the most potential profit for both of them, and it opens up avenues that both companies want. That is why I think it will ultimately happen. Could be wrong, but its my guess.

 

[sleekstereo]

X-Men/Avengers could be big. But its potential is no greater than a crossover with the Guardians, which right now is a more popular franchise than the X-Men. And Marvel has other teams - Inhumans, Defenders, perhaps the FF - that can crossover with the Avengers as well, without cutting FOX in on the BO.

The last two X-Men films had similar BO and critical acclaim to the last two Captain America solo films. They did well, but not well enough to warrant Marvel splitting the grosses with a rival studio. And with the X-Men franchise hurting for star attractions - Jackman's leaving and I'm not certain Gambit's going to get it done - I don't see a crossover between the Avengers mega franchise and the much less popular X-Men films happening unless Marvel gets a significant cut of the FOX productions.

Ok, we all agree that Fox has done some stupid things, but if X-Men is part of any type of future deal and Marvel turns away from that? They are freakin STUPID. X-Men is still one of their top tier brands, hell they will much to prefer to have them then to push Inhumans. Wolverine alone is as popular as Spiderman or Iron Man.

 

[Tony Stark]

I agree with Matt, a Sony type deal is the best option for Marvel and Fox.

Fox bank rolls stand alone Fantastic Four films, Disney/Marvel wouldn't have to pay for anything.

Marvel controls the production of films as well as using all the characters in their films.

If it works out, which is probably will. They can then move forward on how to incorporate the X-Men, and the X-Men is who Marvel REALLY wants.

But that's not going to happen. I don't care what anyone said to the media. Do you think after this disaster that anyone at Fox is going to put a dime toward making another FF movie?

Right now they are hoping that Disney makes an offer to buy the rights back. The whole "we'll use them in X-men" thing is a ruse at best.

Sony was willing to play ball because both TASM films made over 700M at the box office. They've got skin in the game.

At this point the decisions not being made by film makers or the studio heads. The decisions being made are being done by the accountants, and they aren't going to approve a budget for a franchise that isn't profitable.

I've no doubt that Marvel would make a great FF movie, but the only way that happens is outside of Fox.

 

[sleekstereo]

I don't think Marvel should make a Sony type deal with Fox because the FF aren't a even half as popular as Spider-Man.

IMO, the real value is in the Fantastic Four catalog, not the Fantastic Four themselves. Silver Surfer, Galactus, Super Skrull, Kang, The Watcher, etc. A Sony type of deal is worth it, especially since there is no risk to Marvel since they will be controlling the creative direction.

 

[CTFFFan]

Sitting on the FF rights at this point does not benefit Fox in the least. Personal animosities take second place over making money. Fox had visions of making money off the FF themselves, had a sequel already scheduled. Now that they see that they not only aren't going to make money but will lose a boat load, they aren't waiting 8 years to try again. If Marvel offers them a deal, I expect they would accept.

 

[Tony Stark]

IMO, the real value is in the Fantastic Four catalog, not the Fantastic Four themselves. Silver Surfer, Galactus, Super Skrull, Kang, The Watcher, etc. A Sony type of deal is worth it, especially since there is no risk to Marvel since they will be controlling the creative direction.

But come on, I don't care that Fox said they are committed to the characters, does anyone believe that Fox is willing to bet their own money to have another shot at this?

The people who control the studio are the ones that greenlight budgets. If I'm that guy and someone comes to me and says "we need to approve 100M for the next FF movie", I would laugh him out of the office.

Guys the FF is done at Fox. I don't know what other evidence anyone needs than a film that will be lucky to finish with 150M WW.

 

[Tony Stark]

Sitting on the FF rights at this point does not benefit Fox in the least. Personal animosities take second place over making money. Fox had visions of making money off the FF themselves, had a sequel already scheduled. Now that they see that they not only aren't going to make money but will lose a boat load, they aren't waiting 8 years to try again. If Marvel offers them a deal, I expect they would accept.

Bingo! To me this is probably going to come down to FF rights for X-men TV rights. It's a fair trade, and wouldn't require Fox to gamble with any more of their own money.

 

[Kahran Ramsus]

Ok, we all agree that Fox has done some stupid things, but if X-Men is part of any type of future deal and Marvel turns away from that? They are freakin STUPID. X-Men is still one of their top tier brands, hell they will much to prefer to have them then to push Inhumans. Wolverine alone is as popular as Spiderman or Iron Man.

With X-Men we have the opposite problem. Absolutely Marvel would do it, but would Fox? X-Men is a growing franchise, not a decaying one. Would they really want to share revenue and creative control with Marvel?

 

[CTFFFan]

But come on, I don't care that Fox said they are committed to the characters, does anyone believe that Fox is willing to bet their own money to have another shot at this?

The people who control the studio are the ones that greenlight budgets. If I'm that guy and someone comes to me and says "we need to approve 100M for the next FF movie", I would laugh him out of the office.

Guys the FF is done at Fox. I don't know what other evidence anyone needs than a film that will be lucky to finish with 150M WW.

Exactly and of course they are going to say publically that they are committed to the franchise, What else would they say?

 

[Zarex]

Ok, we all agree that Fox has done some stupid things, but if X-Men is part of any type of future deal and Marvel turns away from that? They are freakin STUPID. X-Men is still one of their top tier brands, hell they will much to prefer to have them then to push Inhumans. Wolverine alone is as popular as Spiderman or Iron Man.

If Marvel got the X-Men free and clear, then yeah, it makes a lot of sense to cross them over with their existing franchises. But if they have to cut FOX a sizeable check it makes much more sense for Marvel to cross over with franchises fully under their control.

Wolverine was never as popular as Spider-Man. He was at one point a top five Marvel character, but those days have passed. Looking at the BO for their last films, Logan is as popular as Ant Man.

 

[TeeKay]

But that's not going to happen. I don't care what anyone said to the media. Do you think after this disaster that anyone at Fox is going to put a dime toward making another FF movie?

Right now they are hoping that Disney makes an offer to buy the rights back. The whole "we'll use them in X-men" thing is a ruse at best.

Sony was willing to play ball because both TASM films made over 700M at the box office. They've got skin in the game.

At this point the decisions not being made by film makers or the studio heads. The decisions being made are being done by the accountants, and they aren't going to approve a budget for a franchise that isn't profitable.

I've no doubt that Marvel would make a great FF movie, but the only way that happens is outside of Fox.

Also I remember tw folks over at Sony saying a similar thing and look what happened. Whoever said that Fox has plans for the FF are saving face. As evident by this flick, they ain't got no plans.

 

[Kahran Ramsus]

Wolverine was never as popular as Spider-Man. He was at one point a top five Marvel character, but those days have passed. Looking at the BO for their last films, Logan is as popular as Ant Man.

He might still be top five, but he's definitely not at Spider-Man, Iron Man, or even Captain America levels.

 

[Tony Stark]

Also I remember tw folks over at Sony saying a similar thing and look what happened. Whoever said that Fox has plans for the FF are saving face. As evident by this flick, they ain't got no plans.

Excellent point, that hadn't even occurred to me. They were actively trying to promote the Sinister Six film, and TASM3, but it was clear from the leaked emails that the Sony Execs weren't going to approve another dime.

People just aren't thinking about how big of a bomb this movie is. I don't care that it opened to more than Pixels. Pixels had a respectable 56% drop in week 2 and an under 50% drop this week. This movie will have an over 60% drop, possibly as bad as Wolverine XMO.

This movie is the biggest flop of the summer, and will be remembered for years for how absolutely universally loathed it was.

 

[metaphysician]

I can't keep up with names....but someone big said that just before the movie went into production that FOX nixed 3 big set action pieces. If this is true....and Trank went ahead and directed it, a lot of the failure is still on him. In the last couple of years 2 director's walked from Marvel films because what they wanted and what the production company wanted differed. He could have done that too.

I don't know. Being fair, those directors were veteran, established directors with ongoing careers. Josh Trank doesn't have that; he could have legitimately worried that walking away from this contract would leave him vulnerable, especially if Fox seemed spiteful.

Admittedly, I don't think this was his *actual* logic. Evidence seems to point towards Trank being erratic, he probably didn't think things through.

 

[sleekstereo]

If Marvel got the X-Men free and clear, then yeah, it makes a lot of sense to cross them over with their existing franchises. But if they have to cut FOX a sizeable check it makes much more sense for Marvel to cross over with franchises fully under their control.

Wolverine was never as popular as Spider-Man. He was at one point a top five Marvel character, but those days have passed. Looking at the BO for their last films, Logan is as popular as Ant Man.

Wait, so if you are Marvel, you will turn away from a Sony like deal for the X-Men? That makes no sense.

Fox bank rolls X-Men stand alone films, even stand alone character films, Marvel gives creative input in those films, and Marvel gets to use those characters in their films for bigger events or guest roles.

I'm sorry, to walk away from that is bad business. There is limited risk to Marvel.

 

[sleekstereo]

I don't know. Being fair, those directors were veteran, established directors with ongoing careers. Josh Trank doesn't have that; he could have legitimately worried that walking away from this contract would leave him vulnerable, especially if Fox seemed spiteful.

Admittedly, I don't think this was his *actual* logic. Evidence seems to point towards Trank being erratic, he probably didn't think things through.

A talented Director would have figured out other ways to overcome anything like that. Hell, Bryan Singer did when they cut two set pieces from X2, and that is arguably the best X-Men film ever.

 

[Tony Stark]

Wait, so if you are Marvel, you will turn away from a Sony like deal for the X-Men? That makes no sense.

Fox bank rolls X-Men stand alone films, even stand alone character films, Marvel gives creative input in those films, and Marvel gets to use those characters in their films for bigger events or guest roles.

I'm sorry, to walk away from that is bad business. There is limited risk to Marvel.

If the deal included X-men, it would be worth it. Just for the FF, it's not worth it, because for one, no one at Fox will be willing to put up enough money to make a decent FF film.

 

[sleekstereo]

Fox should have really went with Max Landis' Fantastic Four treatment instead of Trank's. I mean Landis was the real brainchild for Chronicle.

 

[Kahran Ramsus]

If the deal included X-men, it would be worth it. Just for the FF, it's not worth it, because for one, no one at Fox will be willing to put up enough money to make a decent FF film.

I agree. If Marvel can get this sort of deal for X-Men along with FF, then they should definitely go ahead with it. I'm just not sure Fox would be willing to do that.

 

[TalismanRing]

Sony was going to make a Spider-Man movie with or without Marvel. This way they can control the quality and use the still very popular character in their films. They also want to protect the property so they can continue to do $1b in sales on Spider-Man merchandise.

Fox isn't going to make another FF any time this decade and well into the next, if that. F4 as a property is now a burning husk. Another movie cannot be made starring these characters for years even if Marvel makes it. Their value is in the ancillary characters. Also being tied into yet another studio films could very much backfire on the brand and the MCU. It's bad enough that there are those that think F4 is an MCU movie.