The Dark Knight i will get FA-LAMED for this but i think Robin SHOULD be in film 3!

[trustyside-kick]

I do not see how it was insulting. The Riddler gathered around all those villains...each did it for different reasons that were good for them...and they executed the plans.

If anything the only character in all of Loeb's stories that I have wondered why she made any appearances was Poison Ivy. She is the only one that I question here even being there in his stories. All we find out in Hush from the Riddler is "She has a thing for Catwoman".

Clayface did it for the money to get a cure as usual.

Killer Croc also did it for money thinking he could get a cure when Hush and Riddler infact infected him with a virus making mutation worse.

Harvey Dent was given surgery by Tommy Elliot but in the end betrayed them all; ruining their plan.

The Joker...all we know is that when Riddler was being interrogated he said something about Joker hearing the Jason Todd gag and could not resist (which makes a lot of sense and if anything should be good enough for him to be in Hush).

Scarecrow was the one who came up with the name for Tommy Elliot singing that song. But that was not his real role. He was the one that messed with Huntress' mind causing her to betray Batman (still not 100% sure about how she betrayed him exactly though).

Ra's Al Ghul...check my previous posts again.

Tommy Elliot was a mere tool by the Riddler (which explains why he gets so pissed in Hush Returns). Riddler knew that Tommy's wealth would be a key in making this plan to work (recruiting Clayface, Killer Croc, curing Two-Face). Plus appearently we learned Tommy's long time jealousy and hatred towards Bruce that has lasted since childhood.

Catwoman...at the end when they are talking Bruce and Selina talk about what happened and wonder if they were under Ivy's Spell....I guess that could have been Ivy's role than...if they were under her spell then that served a great distraction for Bruce. Pretty sure she was not part of the plan cause like I said in the Poison Ivy paragraph "She has a thing for Catwoman".

Harley...duh working with Joker is her thing.

Riddler...self explanatory since he was the mastermind behind it all. He was going to show everyone in Gotham that he is still a somebody.

Harold...possibly could have been cured by a surgery performed by Tommy as well. His betrayal played a huge role because he had access to Batman's files and stuff.

Did I miss anyone?

 

[Keyser Sushi]

I'll tell you what. Being far more weak than strong, Batman Forever was the only attempt for me to believe a Robin could happen. Yes, even when once O'Donnell has the Robin suit on he's unbearable and the Holy this Holy that are puke worthy.

The way Robin was written in Forever worked okay for me, except that he was acting like a child, despite being an adult.

First, he was clearly a 18-20 y.o. man at least. Then, Bruce help him with real guidance; trying to make him go away from the revenge path. (Oh Batman IS revenge even when he tries - and succeed, depending on the version - genuinely to turn the revenge into a nobler mission; but clearly if Bruce's parents weren't killed his 'noble' feelings would have never existed.)

It's true that the murder of Bruce's parents makes him want to seek vengeance. But in most tellings he moves beyond that, as you admitted. When it becomes a nobler mission, that is a GOOD thing. Fighting crime is a GOOD thing. Self-sacrifice for the greater good is a noble thing. Just ask that Jewish guy I referenced earlier.

After that, Dick was persistant in becoming a crime fighter. And being him almost an adult, he was free to make his own decisions. But it was after a whole movie of Bruce trying to move him away from the vigilante career. At the end, Bruce recognizes the right of a man to find his own way. And the key word is 'man', not 8 y.o. child. Bruce Wayne had mentors too, but after his 18 y.o. or so. No one came as he was 8 to encourage him in his vengeful feelings.

Bruce began his training when he was a child.

The telling that I propose is basically what happened in Batman Forever, except that Robin should be a child. Same thing. Child tries to become Batman's sidekick, Batman says no way in hell. Batman gets his ass in a sling, child helps him, Batman still says no way in hell. Child runs away (interestingly, in the comics, pre-crisis, the child Jason Todd ran away from Bruce and Nocturna, oblivious as to who he was, convinced him to go back to the person he ran away from. There was brilliant dialogue there).

Bruce goes after child, finds him, saves him from getting killed... child has no remorse about almost getting killed. Bruce realizes he can't stop child from doing what he's doing. Tells him, "okay, if you want in, you're in. But you have to do EXACTLY what I tell you. The first time you disobey me, you're out." The reason for the rules is to protect the child, of course.

Coming back to my original example, if a 20 y.o. woman tries to become a ****e for some reason, then be it. And since she's an adult I could give her 1 or 2 tips about the bussiness and maybe I'll give her something else... if she wants it, because she has the age to decide for herself, what the hell.

Typical. You're missing the forest for the trees. The problem isn't the child choosing to be a prostitute, the problem is prostitution period. You can't stop prostitution, of course, but every time you paid for sex, you would help feed this industry that you so deeply fear children deciding to enter.

That's hypocrisy, captain.

 

[Keyser Sushi]

Yeah, I've read Hush. I know all of what you just said there. And it's not just the villains. Huntress, Black Canary, Oracle, Nightwing, Robin, Harold, Catwoman, Superman, Lois Lane, King Kong, Ulysses S. Grant, Spiro Agnew, Larry the Cable Guy, the Artful Dodger, Chandler Bing, and Opie Taylor.

Okay, so I added a few. The point is, I'm familiar with the story. I own the comics. They're the only issues of Batman post-Knightfall that I own. That should say something about how much I value them.

I do not see how it was insulting. The Riddler gathered around all those villains...each did it for different reasons that were good for them...and they executed the plans.

Yes, I know they each had a role to play, blah blah blah. I could try to explain this in a long paragraph, but I don't think that would work, so I'm going to quote the great Robert Wuhl:

"The more you've got, the less they're worth."

 

[trustyside-kick]

Not when it is a plan that huge. :P

Whatever...I am still waiting on El_Payaso's response to the other 2 Robins Bruce took in since he for some reason started to answer back talking about Batman Forever.

 

[Keyser Sushi]

Not when it is a plan that huge. :P

Whatever...I am still waiting on El_Payaso's response to the other 2 Robins Bruce took in since he for some reason started to answer back talking about Batman Forever.

LOL!!! I think it was an evasive answer on his part. I think he was trying to say that the ONLY way he sees Robin working is as an adult. But unfortunately, even though he said that, he didn't really answer your question.

With his political posturing, I think El Payaso has a real chance at being nominated for, and losing in, the next presidential election.

 

[trustyside-kick]

Well...I am curious what he has to say about Jason Todd and Tim Drake because each of them became Robin for different reasons.

 

[Ronny Shade]

I missed much.

 

[Keyser Sushi]

Well...I am curious what he has to say about Jason Todd and Tim Drake because each of them became Robin for different reasons.

Yes. And Batman tried like hell to stop both of them from becoming Robin. For different reasons, of course. Jason because he wanted to protect him and he wasn't sure Jason was ready, and Jason wasn't Dick and he didn't want to try and make him be Dick... and then Tim because of what happened to Jason, obviously, Batman didn't want to endanger another kid. Jason and Tim each had to fight like hell to earn the right to be Robin. Batman didn't make either of them do it. He didn't even want them to.

 

[trustyside-kick]

Yes. And Batman tried like hell to stop both of them from becoming Robin. For different reasons, of course. Jason because he wanted to protect him and he wasn't sure Jason was ready, and Jason wasn't Dick and he didn't want to try and make him be Dick... and then Tim because of what happened to Jason, obviously, Batman didn't want to endanger another kid. Jason and Tim each had to fight like hell to earn the right to be Robin. Batman didn't make either of them do it. He didn't even want them to.

Ya...that is why I am curious about El_Payaso's opinion on those 2 Robins. :P

 

[AnimeJune]

Well, I'm not one to quote from crappy movies, but Alfred did say something worthwhile in "Batman Forever," regarding this very issue: "Young men with a mind for revenge need little encouragement. What they need is guidance." Basically, what you said is right. On a funny side note, my Dad let me taste a sip of his beer a few times when I was a little kid, and I thought it was disgusting. Now I'm 29 and I don't drink. What my Dad did certainly didn't hurt me, did it?

Ha! That happened with me, too! I'm in University, and whenever my friends and I go to bars, they look at me funny when I order a Coke. I'd state my reasons, but saying "It tastes yucky and makes me sick" might come off as a little immature.
Anyway, back to Batman - Robin in a movie could create opportunities for some interesting character dynamics, but I think they should wait for at least a couple more movies - Nolan's Batman's just starting to get his ass-kicking legs.

 

[Keyser Sushi]

Ha! That happened with me, too! I'm in University, and whenever my friends and I go to bars, they look at me funny when I order a Coke. I'd state my reasons, but saying "It tastes yucky and makes me sick" might come off as a little immature.

LOL!!! Hiya, Junie. Yeah, I too found it easier not to explain in too much detail why I don't drink when I was in college. I also found that most people were very respectful of my decision and didn't push me, which was cool. Pushy people piss me off. Although alliteration is awesome.

Anyway, back to Batman - Robin in a movie could create opportunities for some interesting character dynamics, but I think they should wait for at least a couple more movies - Nolan's Batman's just starting to get his ass-kicking legs.

Yeah, I agree with you. Actually, so does Nolan, who said Robin wouldn't show up until at least the fourth movie, which would likely be after he was done directing them. I think Nolan and Goyer have a trilogy in mind, and when it's done, Nolan may depart, or WB, if they are cool, might offer him a ton of money to stick around. But it sounds to me like Nolan is not a Robin fan. Neither is Bale, although the nature of Bale's anti-Robin sentiments suggest that he has never had any exposure to the character beyond Burt Ward in nylons.

 

[ganstaman56]

he should be Dick Grayson threw most of the movie his parents killed by The Joker during his rampage in Batman 2 (off-screen but referenced) he becomes Robin in the last thirty minutes.

they arent showing him at all!! and if u hate robin so much y do u want him shown at all?!

 

[trustyside-kick]

they arent showing him at all!! and if u hate robin so much y do u want him shown at all?!

Where did that guy say he hated Robin? He is the one that started this thread.

 

[AnimeJune]

Yeah, I agree with you. Actually, so does Nolan, who said Robin wouldn't show up until at least the fourth movie, which would likely be after he was done directing them. I think Nolan and Goyer have a trilogy in mind, and when it's done, Nolan may depart, or WB, if they are cool, might offer him a ton of money to stick around. But it sounds to me like Nolan is not a Robin fan. Neither is Bale, although the nature of Bale's anti-Robin sentiments suggest that he has never had any exposure to the character beyond Burt Ward in nylons.

True - but that might not necessarily mean anything. Sam Raimi said he hated Venom, and now Venom's all but set to be in at least part of the third film and possibly the fourth.

 

[El Payaso]

The way Robin was written in Forever worked okay for me, except that he was acting like a child, despite being an adult.

Yes, I said that.

It's true that the murder of Bruce's parents makes him want to seek vengeance. But in most tellings he moves beyond that, as you admitted. When it becomes a nobler mission, that is a GOOD thing. Fighting crime is a GOOD thing. Self-sacrifice for the greater good is a noble thing. Just ask that Jewish guy I referenced earlier.

Why ask anyone for something I already said?

Bruce began his training when he was a child.

Because comic books says so or because you wrote that in bold letters?

The telling that I propose is basically what happened in Batman Forever, except that Robin should be a child. Same thing. Child tries to become Batman's sidekick, Batman says no way in hell. Batman gets his ass in a sling, child helps him, Batman still says no way in hell. Child runs away (interestingly, in the comics, pre-crisis, the child Jason Todd ran away from Bruce and Nocturna, oblivious as to who he was, convinced him to go back to the person he ran away from. There was brilliant dialogue there).

All those words and you provide no reason of why he should be a child.

Bruce goes after child, finds him, saves him from getting killed... child has no remorse about almost getting killed. Bruce realizes he can't stop child from doing what he's doing. Tells him, "okay, if you want in, you're in. But you have to do EXACTLY what I tell you. The first time you disobey me, you're out." The reason for the rules is to protect the child, of course.

No wonder why children who insist too much on having some toy eventually get what they wanted.

So Bats risks Robin's life every night for revenge (in Robin's case IS revenge) and then he puts rules to "protect" him.

You're not funny, but there's some humour there.

Typical. You're missing the forest for the trees. The problem isn't the child choosing to be a prostitute, the problem is prostitution period. You can't stop prostitution, of course, but every time you paid for sex, you would help feed this industry that you so deeply fear children deciding to enter.

That's hypocrisy, captain.

No. When did I say prostitution is a bad thing?

"the problem is prostitution" is your own line and yours only.

I just said it's wrong to let a underage to become prostitute without having age to take that kind of decisions. Let her or encourage in any way.

The problem is corrupting children or let children to corrupt themsleves as a tesult of their immaturity.

LOL!!! I think it was an evasive answer on his part. I think he was trying to say that the ONLY way he sees Robin working is as an adult. But unfortunately, even though he said that, he didn't really answer your question.

I'll answer trusty when I feel like it, bozo, just like everybody else does.

With his political posturing, I think El Payaso has a real chance at being nominated for, and losing in, the next presidential election.

Humour and you were born in different dimensions. Try pure insults.

 

[trustyside-kick]

Maybe because of some arguements before you might have mis-interpreted how I wanted to see Dick Grayson in the third film El Payaso; which is ok because miscommunication is a common thing.

Have Robin's parents die, Bruce takes him in. Does not start to train him at that age but I would like to see him young just to be closer to the comics. He does not have to start his training at the end of the movie and they do not have to do something to hint that he will.

 

[El Payaso]

Maybe because of some arguements before you might have mis-interpreted how I wanted to see Dick Grayson in the third film El Payaso; which is ok because miscommunication is a common thing.

Have Robin's parents die, Bruce takes him in. Does not start to train him at that age but I would like to see him young just to be closer to the comics. He does not have to start his training at the end of the movie and they do not have to do something to hint that he will.

I gave you the example of what I think was the only convincing Robin I have seen, Tim, Jason or not. I wish you could see why I talked about Forever instead Jason and Tim. I'll give my opinion about them though. Just not now.

Anyway and since we talked about Robin's age till boredom, I'll just tell you that Bruce Wayne - given he's single, unstable, bussinessman and Batman - is not a very good prospect as a father. He barely can keep a romantic relationship, he barely has time for anything. Sure, he can train Dick but Dick needs a father as much as exercising.

 

[Cinemaman]

Please! No Robin! He Will Kill All Franchise Again!

 

[AnimeJune]

Please! No Robin! He Will Kill All Franchise Again!

Ha. Ha. No stopping of Us now. All your Franchise are Belong to Us.

 

[trustyside-kick]

I gave you the example of what I think was the only convincing Robin I have seen, Tim, Jason or not. I wish you could see why I talked about Forever instead Jason and Tim. I'll give my opinion about them though. Just not now.

Anyway and since we talked about Robin's age till boredom, I'll just tell you that Bruce Wayne - given he's single, unstable, bussinessman and Batman - is not a very good prospect as a father. He barely can keep a romantic relationship, he barely has time for anything. Sure, he can train Dick but Dick needs a father as much as exercising.

Well I guess before you decide to give me your opinions about Jason and Tim becoming Robin I will give you mine.

Jason Todd-
The overall story Did Robin Die Tonight was okay...thought the fact that the old lady was like teaching the boys in her school to be criminals was kinda stupid but ok. It was cool when Jason told Batman what was really going on and they took her down. What bothered me was that at the end Batman takes him into the Batmobile and Jason is like "you aren't going to take me to an orphanage or the authorities will you?", then Bats is like "No, Robin." Then Jason is like "Robin?"...and Batman is like "Robin."...that was a stupid way to end the story and I think Batman took Jason in too easily to become Robin. Everything else about Jason being Robin was cool though.

Tim Drake-
I loved A Lonely Place of Dying. Out of the three Robin origins I must say Tim Drake's is the best. A huge Batman and Robin fanatic that even trained himself in karate and other styles as well as a great detective himself. I mean...he figured out Batman was Bruce, Dick was the first Robin and now Nightwing, and Jason was the Robin that died. Tim has great potential to be an amazing superhero in the future. While Nightwing has better fighting and acrobatics Tim clearly is the better detective. Some people say they want to see Tim Drake become Batman when Batman retires..I do not agree with that though. But I like everything about Tim Drake.

 

[The Guard]

HUSH was not impressive.

 

[Keyser Sushi]

True - but that might not necessarily mean anything. Sam Raimi said he hated Venom, and now Venom's all but set to be in at least part of the third film and possibly the fourth.

You know... you make an excellent point. I was surprised as anybody to find out Venom's gonna be in Spidey 3. I guess anything is possible.

Yes, I said that.

You said it worked for you. I'm saying it worked for me, too. I was agreeing with you.

Why ask anyone for something I already said?

You never said self-sacrifice for the greater good was a noble thing.

Because comic books says so or because you wrote that in bold letters?

It's in the comics, cheif.

All those words and you provide no reason of why he should be a child.

No, but I described how the situation could work believably with him being a child.

No wonder why children who insist too much on having some toy eventually get what they wanted.

What? That's not the same thing. A child who harrasses his parents for a toy isn't going to get the toy unless they buy it for him. They have the power to stop him from getting that toy.

Dick Grayson doesn't need Batman's encouragement to go out into the night looking for the man who killed his parents. Dick will do it on his own. Bruce doesn't have the power to stop him.

So Bats risks Robin's life every night for revenge (in Robin's case IS revenge) and then he puts rules to "protect" him.

No, ROBIN RISKS HIS OWN LIFE, YOU HARD-HEADED... deep breaths. Deep breaths. Shouting at him won't make him a better listener...

You're not funny, but there's some humour there.

Where?

No. When did I say prostitution is a bad thing?

If you don't think prostitution is a bad thing, then why are you acting like you care if a teenage girl decides to become a prostitute?

"the problem is prostitution" is your own line and yours only.

I never claimed otherwise. I'm well aware of what I said and what I didn't.

I just said it's wrong to let a underage to become prostitute without having age to take that kind of decisions. Let her or encourage in any way.

Do you truly believe that a person's decisionmaking capabilities are magically better at 18 than they are at 17? 18 is an arbitrary number. The only thing that improves a person's judgment is experience. Experience generally comes with age but some kids have more life experience at twelve than some adults do at thirty. I'm not saying that it's right to treat children as adults.

I'm not saying it's right to "corrupt" them as you're so fond of saying. I'm saying that kids learn about right and wrong from the examples that adults set for them. That's why inner city kids with drug-addicted single mothers never learn how to act, it's because nobody's there to teach them. They have to get tough or die, and they become these weird man-children.

Dick Grayson was a circus acrobat as a child. He's never been taught to leave the dangerous stuff to adults. He's been risking his life since he was able to hold onto a trapeze. What I'm saying is that Dick has never been taught that he isn't old enough to risk his life. He's been doing it every day for years, even before he meets Batman. He isn't gonig to sit still while Batman is out there doing what he does best. Batman can tell Robin he can't come along but Robin's going to come along anyway.

The problem is corrupting children or let children to corrupt themsleves as a tesult of their immaturity.

I would argue that it was the man who killed the Flying Graysons that corrupted Dick Grayson. Once that's happened there is no going back.

I'll answer trusty when I feel like it, bozo, just like everybody else does.

Sure, you say that now. I think you'll just be reading from the same script if you did, so you haven't bothered. "Corruption blah blah blah, not old enough blah blah blah, ignoring everything everybody says, blah blah blah."

Humour and you were born in different dimensions. Try pure insults.

Humor? Who says I was joking? You sound like a dodgy politician. You say the same lines over and over again and ignore simple english, just like a politician. That's not a joke, it's the plain-spoken truth.

 

[Keyser Sushi]

I gave you the example of what I think was the only convincing Robin I have seen, Tim, Jason or not. I wish you could see why I talked about Forever instead Jason and Tim. I'll give my opinion about them though. Just not now.

Wait. Didn't I just say that you were trying to say that the only way you see Robin working was as an adult? That this was the reason you said what you said about Forever? Didn't you try to act, in your response to me, as if that wasn't said in response to trusty, or as if it wasn't an evasive answer? But then you turn around and admit to him that it was a response, but it wasn't an answer, and that you'll answer him later?

Hypocrite.

HUSH was not impressive.

Well, I feel vindicated.

Seriously, man. I'm glad to see you in this thread, I was hoping you'd weigh in on the Robin issue. I don't know how you feel about him but I'd be curious to know. Whatever it is, I'm sure you've thought the hell out of it.

 

[El Payaso]

You never said self-sacrifice for the greater good was a noble thing.

Yes, sometimes I say 'Bye' but I mean 'good-bye', 'take care', 'see you' or 'so long' but I just say Bye. People like you don't get it.

It's in the comics, cheif.

I wonder if you can make up a worse excuse to do things in movies. It seems impossible.

No, but I described how the situation could work believably with him being a child.

Let's say you described a situation.

What? That's not the same thing. A child who harrasses his parents for a toy isn't going to get the toy unless they buy it for him. They have the power to stop him from getting that toy.

Bravo. So now you admit Batman has the power to stop Dick ruining his life in order to have revenge. Even if he fail at it, he's moraly forced to try to stop him.

Dick Grayson doesn't need Batman's encouragement to go out into the night looking for the man who killed his parents. Dick will do it on his own. Bruce doesn't have the power to stop him.

True. The thing is he's not forced to help him.

If Dick's gonna do it anyway, let him free.

No, ROBIN RISKS HIS OWN LIFE, YOU HARD-HEADED... deep breaths. Deep breaths. Shouting at him won't make him a better listener...

Stop talking to yourself for a second, ok?

Dick (pre-Robin) risking his life is something kids do. Normally adults try to prevent that, not encourage them to do that.

Where?

Son, no one's paying me to be your baby sitter. Sme things you have to do it by your own, I'm sorry.

If you don't think prostitution is a bad thing, then why are you acting like you care if a teenage girl decides to become a prostitute?

1.- Because we're talking of a 8 y.o. kid.
2.- Because you can't read properly.

I never claimed otherwise. I'm well aware of what I said and what I didn't.

Not like there's too much to be aware of.

Do you truly believe that a person's decisionmaking capabilities are magically better at 18 than they are at 17? 18 is an arbitrary number. The only thing that improves a person's judgment is experience. Experience generally comes with age but some kids have more life experience at twelve than some adults do at thirty. I'm not saying that it's right to treat children as adults.

What the experience of a 8 y.o. boy can do for him about revenge and crime fighting?

I'm not saying it's right to "corrupt" them as you're so fond of saying. I'm saying that kids learn about right and wrong from the examples that adults set for them. That's why inner city kids with drug-addicted single mothers never learn how to act, it's because nobody's there to teach them. They have to get tough or die, and they become these weird man-children.

If there's something to teach a 8 y.o. kid is to wait and don't let revenge to rule his life. Not how to use bat-weapons or how to face an armed guy.

Dick Grayson was a circus acrobat as a child. He's never been taught to leave the dangerous stuff to adults. He's been risking his life since he was able to hold onto a trapeze. What I'm saying is that Dick has never been taught that he isn't old enough to risk his life. He's been doing it every day for years, even before he meets Batman. He isn't gonig to sit still while Batman is out there doing what he does best. Batman can tell Robin he can't come along but Robin's going to come along anyway.

Risking life in a circus and in the streets are different things from almost every POV.

I would argue that it was the man who killed the Flying Graysons that corrupted Dick Grayson. Once that's happened there is no going back.

Yes, it is. Every trauma is possible to be healed. If Bruce copuldn't fix up his own issues that's his problem.

Sure, you say that now. I think you'll just be reading from the same script if you did, so you haven't bothered. "Corruption blah blah blah, not old enough blah blah blah, ignoring everything everybody says, blah blah blah."

None of your bussiness.

Humor? Who says I was joking? You sound like a dodgy politician. You say the same lines over and over again and ignore simple english, just like a politician. That's not a joke, it's the plain-spoken truth.

You sound like Bush. Stop projecting.

Wait. Didn't I just say that you were trying to say that the only way you see Robin working was as an adult? That this was the reason you said what you said about Forever? Didn't you try to act, in your response to me, as if that wasn't said in response to trusty, or as if it wasn't an evasive answer? But then you turn around and admit to him that it was a response, but it wasn't an answer, and that you'll answer him later?

Hypocrite.

None of your bussiness, jumpy monkey. Relax that vein.

 

[trustyside-kick]

This is a stale-mate...