IDW Transformers Thread

[El Bastardo]

I'm not sure they would be subordinate to Primal, actually.

As far as Primal goes, he wasn't really a force commander. He was just the head captain/commander/leader of the Axalon, wasn't he? Which was only a science vessel that just wound up close enough to intercept Megatron's ship and give chase.

Of course, that all changes once on the planet, and I'm definitely not taking away from his skills or anything of the sort. He's more important than any of the convoys, simply because of how the end of season two and entirety of season three blend into the mythos of Generation 1.

But I think the Convoys, and I'm only basing this on the feel I get from the IDW published Beast Wars Sourcebooks and the Beast Wars minis thus far, are actual force commanders. Add to it that at this juncture Primal and the boys are still on Earth, getting ready to go home...

Well, I dunno. Timelines are funny things once you start playing with them. If Beast Machines doesn't happen, you really would think that Primal, being merged with the Prime of the Great War's spark, would be made an uber hero on his return to Cybertron. If Beast Machines is still happening, well, whatever. It really doesn't matter, in that case.

 

[El Bastardo]

And another post, just to separate things better.

Has anyone read the last issue of Megatron: Origin yet? I'll stick it all in spoilers, even though it's not issue details, just aftermath details.

Spoiler

I think it was pretty darn rad that Furman essentially left the volumes of The War Within that he wrote for Dreamwave, that have since been reprinted by IDW, open for happening next. We never see Optimus during the events of Megatron: Origin. Sentinel Prime is still destroyed by Megatron, and his spark ripped out, just like the opening page of The War Within: Volume 1 states. The Decepticons still come out of a gladiatorial underground, and Grimlock was a part of it, as per TWW:V1.

I was hoping it'd be the case, and I'm rather pleased.

 

[TheCorpulent1]

Yeah, Megatron: Origin was awesome. I haven't read much of War Within yet, but I plan on getting the trades since the story is in continuity for IDW. I thought they were thrown out along with the rest of the Dreamwave continuity; if I'd known they weren't, I would've probably bought them earlier.

As for the Convoy/Primal hierarchy, yes, the Convoys would probably have started out higher than Primal since Primal was ostensibly just the head of a science vessel. But we learned from BW season 2 that Optimus had more going on as head of that science vessel than he initially let on. He must've been tasked with disposing of Protoform X for a reason, hinting at possibly a higher status than he revealed. Plus, he had Rattrap, a demolitions expert with obvious military experience, on his vessel, which is kind of an odd member for a science team.

Either way, the fact that the Convoys seem to come from Razorbeast's time, where they already know all about Primal's exploits, would indicate that they know of his heroism in the Beast Wars. That's gotta raise him up to at least a respectable field commander status, if not necessarily above the Convoys in the Maximal army.

But regardless of Primal and the Convoys' relative statuses within the TF universe, I'm saying that Furman himself better respect Primal as the big cheese of the Beast Wars-era continuity.

 

[sto_vo_kor_2000]

I don't care what the Japanese people did with their Beast Wars. My Beast Wars is what counts and what I go by. Besides, they were even acting under the wrong assumption if they thought Primal was the original Optimus in a new body. Thus, everything they did is flawed. Simple as.

And what would I have Furman call them other than Convoy? I dunno. But I'm sure a guy like Simon Furman, who can keep coming up with new and original Transformers stories across several separate mythologies, can come up with some good names for them.

The Japanese werent really working under any wrong assumptions.....but you seem to be.The Japanese were working with out dated infomation that was given to them by HasbroThe original consept for Beast Wars from Hasbro that the Japanese got had Primal as a new body for G1 Prime.Thats how it was soppuse to be here for us.Its not the Japanese fault that they never got the correct information about the character and timeframe changes that was made after the shows first Bible was given to them.
As for Fuman abilaty to create new stories.....I find his stories to be a bit over-rated.I like his stuff dont get me wrong.....but he tends to re-write things in TF history that he doesnt like or hasnt written him self and also contradick his owen writting.And I dont think the hard core fans would have asepted ether of the convoy's with names other then Prime,Primal or Convoy some where in it.There faces look more like G1 Prime then Primal ever did.

 

[sto_vo_kor_2000]

Eh, there's nothing wrong with the name "Convoy." Just as long as Furman knows that American fans like the American Beast Wars, ergo the Convoys are subordinate to Optimus Primal in the BW hierarchy. I don't even really have a problem with Lio Convoy being the leader of a secondary group of Maximals on Cybertron or something. Make him a venerated war hero or whatever. Just don't make him overshadow Primal.

As for duplicate names in the same time frame: isn't there a Big Convoy who transforms into a mammoth in the same time frame as Lio Convoy?

If Furmen follows the characters events from the J Beast Wars shows as he said he was trying to then you might be very disapointed.Both convoys were instramental in stoping the re-birth of Unicron in their shows.Lio Convoy mereged his spark and matrix with G1 Prime to do it in BWII and Big Convoy did it by merging his spark and Matrix with Lio Convoys to form the Matrix Blaster [I know stupid name]

 

[TheCorpulent1]

I know, I saw the movies. I think I may end up dropping the Beast Wars comics if it looks like they're moving to just retell those stories.

 

[sto_vo_kor_2000]

And another post, just to separate things better.

Has anyone read the last issue of Megatron: Origin yet? I'll stick it all in spoilers, even though it's not issue details, just aftermath details.

Spoiler

I think it was pretty darn rad that Furman essentially left the volumes of The War Within that he wrote for Dreamwave, that have since been reprinted by IDW, open for happening next. We never see Optimus during the events of Megatron: Origin. Sentinel Prime is still destroyed by Megatron, and his spark ripped out, just like the opening page of The War Within: Volume 1 states. The Decepticons still come out of a gladiatorial underground, and Grimlock was a part of it, as per TWW:V1.

I was hoping it'd be the case, and I'm rather pleased.

Well there were some differences ....I'll post them in spoiler

Spoiler

Optimus Prime was seen in issue 3 of Megatron origin....he was in his Orion Pax form and he was at the bureal for Bumper.And if you remember from the War Within Optimus never had a Orion looking form well face any way.Also Sentinel Primes destruction in dreamwaves's War Within took place well after the war had begun and Optimus Prime was the next Prime.....witch wont happen in the IDW verse cause since it was shown that the war just begun....and that there is a Nova Prime during the war.....that the next Prime will ether be Nova of yet an other.An other exsample of Furman changing things that he doesnt like.

 

[sto_vo_kor_2000]

I know, I saw the movies. I think I may end up dropping the Beast Wars comics if it looks like they're moving to just retell those stories.

It does look that way.

 

[TheCorpulent1]

Hopefully Furman will keep up his tradition of randomly changing things he doesn't like and make the resurrection of Unicron different from and better than the animes. I'm already kind of leary with all the Angolmois talk and the Convoys being set up as such huge parts of the story. I'll see how it goes, though.

 

[sto_vo_kor_2000]

Hopefully Furman will keep up his tradition of randomly changing things he doesn't like and make the resurrection of Unicron different from and better than the animes. I'm already kind of leary with all the Angolmois talk and the Convoys being set up as such huge parts of the story. I'll see how it goes, though.

I wish he would have givven us an original story instead of borrowing so much from the japanese one.

 

[El Bastardo]

The Japanese werent really working under any wrong assumptions.....but you seem to be.The Japanese were working with out dated infomation that was given to them by HasbroThe original consept for Beast Wars from Hasbro that the Japanese got had Primal as a new body for G1 Prime.Thats how it was soppuse to be here for us.Its not the Japanese fault that they never got the correct information about the character and timeframe changes that was made after the shows first Bible was given to them.

I never said it was the fault of the Japanese. I said that they were operating under the wrong assumptions. And apparently you are, too, since you couldn't copy verbatim what I did put down. Which shouldn't have been difficult, since... you quoted it. But oh well.
And I don't really care about the circumstances. Again, the Beast Wars that I watched on television and loved and still watch today is what counts. Furman gets mad props for using everything in the Beast Wars mythology, sure. He didn't have to. It's admirable, or some such, that he wants to incorporate all the characters, and focus on characters we Americans might not know about.
But regardless of what Hasbro told the Japanese folks behind their cartoons, Primal was quite obviously not a new body of Prime. So yes, they were operating under the wrong assumptions, since Primal was not Prime as per Beast Wars Americana. And I don't really care which came first, either, since the unwritten rule more or less is: if there is a problem of continuity, let the cooler part win out!
And Beast Wars Americana pwns anything else.

 

[sto_vo_kor_2000]

I never said it was the fault of the Japanese. I said that they were operating under the wrong assumptions. And apparently you are, too, since you couldn't copy verbatim what I did put down. Which shouldn't have been difficult, since... you quoted it. But oh well.
And I don't really care about the circumstances. Again, the Beast Wars that I watched on television and loved and still watch today is what counts. Furman gets mad props for using everything in the Beast Wars mythology, sure. He didn't have to. It's admirable, or some such, that he wants to incorporate all the characters, and focus on characters we Americans might not know about.
But regardless of what Hasbro told the Japanese folks behind their cartoons, Primal was quite obviously not a new body of Prime. So yes, they were operating under the wrong assumptions, since Primal was not Prime as per Beast Wars Americana. And I don't really care which came first, either, since the unwritten rule more or less is: if there is a problem of continuity, let the cooler part win out!
And Beast Wars Americana pwns anything else.

I get it......you loved the U.S. Beast Wars [so did I by the way it was the best written TF show IMHO] and you dont care about the Japanese shows......and I'm not trying to arguee with you,I've just been sharing some info with you [witch it looks like you didnt want] on some of the back ground on the Japanes shows and characters [witch you dont care about] but can you tell me just how obvious it is that Primal is not a new body for G1 Prime just from the first few episodes of the first season?????Its not like they got all 3 seasons at one time then translated it for their market.Do you remember just how bad our re-dubbing of Armada,Energon and Cybertron were????Characters called by the wrong names in all of those serries.RID was the only onw of the Japans shows to not have as many dubbing issues because we got the whole serries at one time.

 

[TheCorpulent1]

Clearly, that's just more reason for us North Americans to make more Transformers cartoons instead of our Japanese brethren.

 

[sto_vo_kor_2000]

Clearly, that's just more reason for us North Americans to make more Transformers cartoons instead of our Japanese brethren.

I agree!!!.........you know?????Who the hell is producing the new show???????????Us or Japan????????Because I think its us and so far I'm not very happy

 

[TheCorpulent1]

Yeah, it's an American show. I don't know if it's the US or Canada doing it, but it's somewhere in this hemisphere. It does look pretty terrible, too.

 

[sto_vo_kor_2000]

Yeah, it's an American show. I don't know if it's the US or Canada doing it, but it's somewhere in this hemisphere. It does look pretty terrible, too.

I cant wait to see how much it sucks by the way have you seen this new clip http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=kITwzo7Oa38

 

[TheCorpulent1]

Yeah, that looks lame.

 

[El Bastardo]

I'm not sure if this is what sto was asking me, since I started to have a hard time understanding what was being presented to me in (mostly) question format, but:

No, I never thought that Optimus Primal was Prime in a new body. Not in the first episode, nor the second part of the first episode, or the third or fourth episodes. Or the second season. And obviously not in the third season.

I never thought Megatron was the original Megatron in a new body.

I never thought Dimobot was Grimlock.

It never even occurred to me to think those things, most likely owing to the fact that the show never made a hint that any of that was the case (and yes, I know you did not speak of the last two, but I threw them in for good measure to show how ludicrous the idea truly is).

The character of Optimus Primal was an obvious homage to a great leader of the past, from a time in the future. It's not really that outlandish.

 

[TheCorpulent1]

Yeah, but I think sto's point is that behind the scenes, Hasbro actually did intend for Primal and Megatron to be new incarnations of their G1 counterparts, which is the story treatment I guess Takara gave to the Japanese show's creators, which is how it turned out that they treated them as such. There's nothing to overtly suggest they are new incarnations of the G1 characters but, on the other hand, there's nothing to overtly suggest they're not the G1 characters. I imagine it wouldn't really occur to anyone who's been reincarnated to just ramble at great length about their past lives all the time. So, given that the Japanese creators were told this information from an official source and nothing in the episodes themselves contradicted it until the end of the second season, it's pretty reasonable for them to have thought that Primal and Megs were the G1 characters reincarnated. Simple miscommunication that ballooned into totally different takes on the characters.

 

[El Bastardo]

Yes, I know what his point is. I was just putting forth the idea that the idea they could be reincarnated G1 generals is stupid in premise.

And it's a great example of why the corporation that owns franchise rights should not dictate how a story should be fashioned. Leave it to the writers!

 

[sto_vo_kor_2000]

I'm not sure if this is what sto was asking me, since I started to have a hard time understanding what was being presented to me in (mostly) question format, but:

No, I never thought that Optimus Primal was Prime in a new body. Not in the first episode, nor the second part of the first episode, or the third or fourth episodes. Or the second season. And obviously not in the third season.

I never thought Megatron was the original Megatron in a new body.

I never thought Dimobot was Grimlock.

It never even occurred to me to think those things, most likely owing to the fact that the show never made a hint that any of that was the case (and yes, I know you did not speak of the last two, but I threw them in for good measure to show how ludicrous the idea truly is).

The character of Optimus Primal was an obvious homage to a great leader of the past, from a time in the future. It's not really that outlandish.

Sorry that my post confused you so much....I hadnt slept for 3 days at the time.What I was asking you was how was it can be seen from just the first 3 episides that [and I qoute your words] "Primal was quite obviously not a new body of Prime" ????There was nothing in the first few episodes or the rest of season 1 to preclude the Japanese from having the idea that both Megatron and Primal were the same as their G1 counterparts.Even when I first hear about Hasbro was doing a new TF show that featured Beast forms instead of cars I wondered wether or not the characters were going to be updated G1 characters or desendents, wether it was a fresh start for the universe or a continuation, wether or not the Japanese shows were going to be inclued into this universe since it so clearly doesnt fit into the rest of the G1 universe.And I'm a total fanboy on this topic.

Think about it this way:::
Your watching their Beast Wars in mute, no sub-titeles, no idea on wether its connect to any of the other TF shows.You have a basic sumery of what the serries is about that tells you that their the same characters as the G1 characters and you see that some of the guys look simular to the G1 characters and have simular or the same names as the G1 characters and a half written episode script thats baddly translated that you had to finish.....what would you think then???????

And is not that far fetched to believe that the G1 characters could still be alive that far in the future.......their are a few G1 characters that are still alive in our Beast Wars time line even thou they didnt get to appear on the show...G1 Grimlock ,Prowl ,Ironhide and Silverbolt are all still alive in the BW's timeframe at least acording to their tec-specks on their figures.Saying that the idea of them being in new bodys is " ludicrous" is because you have already watch and enjoyed the show how it was.They didnt have that forsite when they were translating the show for their market's.And do you think that you would have really enjoyed the show any less if Hasbro had gone with the new bodies for G1's Prime and Megatron idea?????? Were the stories that un-interesting that the only reason you watched the show was because Primal was a desendent og G1 Prime and not the real deal????

By the way in Hasbro's original treatment for Beast Wars they didnt come from to far in the future.They wanted BW's to be a dirrect continuation to "The Rebirth" witch was the last episode of the G1 toon.

And if you think this mistake the Japanese made is such a big deal I wont even tell you what they did with Air Razor

Yeah, but I think sto's point is that behind the scenes, Hasbro actually did intend for Primal and Megatron to be new incarnations of their G1 counterparts, which is the story treatment I guess Takara gave to the Japanese show's creators, which is how it turned out that they treated them as such. There's nothing to overtly suggest they are new incarnations of the G1 characters but, on the other hand, there's nothing to overtly suggest they're not the G1 characters. I imagine it wouldn't really occur to anyone who's been reincarnated to just ramble at great length about their past lives all the time. So, given that the Japanese creators were told this information from an official source and nothing in the episodes themselves contradicted it until the end of the second season, it's pretty reasonable for them to have thought that Primal and Megs were the G1 characters reincarnated. Simple miscommunication that ballooned into totally different takes on the characters.

Exactly my point!!!! Much like Hasbros mistakes on Armada and those that followed..........but at least they were both working on the shows at about the same time so the mistakes werent so large in scale.

Yes, I know what his point is. I was just putting forth the idea that the idea they could be reincarnated G1 generals is stupid in premise.

And it's a great example of why the corporation that owns franchise rights should not dictate how a story should be fashioned. Leave it to the writers!

I know it seems like a stupid idea for us to see a character get a body after so long a time [at least at the time anyway] but the Japanese have a very long tradision of doing that to their characters.They've been doing it since the 70's in different toons.Also for Japan G1 didnt end back in 87[or early 90 if you were a comic fan] like it did for most of us....they had new shows up untill at least 1991 and a good series of manga comics till 93.G2 wasnt even a big deal for them because the year before they had released the Return of Convoy, Battlestars and Transformers: Operation Combination toylines.And their G2 was popular longer then ours was.
By the time that Beast Wars had first hit the air and toys market for us it had only been 1 year since they had any G1 serries on the market in any form ,show toy or comic, so its not that hard to understand why they would think that Primal and G1 Prime were the same character more so when you factor in the fact that we told them that they were.

But dont worry I know that you dont care!!!!

 

[El Bastardo]

I'm not trying to be a donkey in my vehement opposition to the idea that Primal/Megatron could be taken as G1 reincarnations (for lack of a better word). There is a wonderful bit of northeastern stubbornness involved in this, yes, but it's based on rational logic and not because I've seen the entire series.

Again, I said that 10+ years ago when I was first watching the episodes early in the morning before school, yes, when I was a wee little teenager, I did not think they were the beloved G1 characters I had grown up watching. Did it even cross my mind? No, it didn't. Because there was no evidence that it could or WOULD be them. There isn't.

And really, saying that I'd wonder if I watched it with no volume or captions is silly. I don't even see how you can really present that argument. That's like saying... "Cap's not really dead, because if you flipped through Captain America #25 with your eyes closed you'd never see it happen." Does Primal's face look akin to Prime's? Of course it does. Was it deliberate? Of course it was. They're two leaders. But BW Megatron doesn't exactly look like G1 Megatron.

And of course the intros were meant to be similar. That is, the Ark vs. the Nemesis and the Axalon vs. Megatron's BW ship. I forget the name.

I'm not blaming the Japanese. I'm just saying that the American Beast Wars show, from a story standpoint, comes out a lot better in premise and I assume execution (assumption based on the premise) than the Japanese Beast Wars stuff. And, therefore, I really don't care that much about the Japanese show, because it seems entirely silly to me for Beast Wars to be a rehash of the G1 war. Because the American Beast Wars story is that good.

And I said the idea of the characters being G1 Prime and Megs was ludicrous, not that the idea of G1 characters being around was. I know that Prowl, Ironhide, Silverbolt, and Grimlock are around. I was talking to Corp about how fun a Grimlock time loop could technically be (something akin to Reese's character in The Terminator).

But it's not because I've seen the show. I never thought Optimus Primal was Optimus Prime in a smaller ape body. I never thought Megatron was Megatron in a t-rex body. Nor did any of my friends who saw the show. Seriously, Primal having the name Optimus seemed nothing more than paying homage to a great war leader. If some popular American Army general took on the name "Ulysses," I wouldn't think he's a reincarnated Ulysses Grant. Yes, that is a horrid example, but pretty much the same idea.

I'm sorry. I just don't think it should have occurred to anyone that Primal = Prime and Megatron = Megatron. Not that it's their fault, since Hasbro told them it was the case, or intended it to be the case, or whatever. But trying to justify it by trying to make it rational logic just doesn't work.

 

[TheCorpulent1]

Wait, where are the G1 Prowl, Ironhide, and Silverbolt in Beast Wars?

 

[sto_vo_kor_2000]

And really, saying that I'd wonder if I watched it with no volume or captions is silly. I don't even see how you can really present that argument. That's like saying... "Cap's not really dead, because if you flipped through Captain America #25 with your eyes closed you'd never see it happen." Does Primal's face look akin to Prime's? Of course it does. Was it deliberate? Of course it was. They're two leaders. But BW Megatron doesn't exactly look like G1 Megatron.

What I was suggesting that you put yourself in their shoes........place your self over 10 years ago, and watch their Beast Wars shows with out ever seeing or knowing about ours.......with out any sound while have a sumery bible of the show that tells you that there the same characters, and your from a place that upgrading old characters isnt unheard of, and your from a place that the G1 story had only ended the year before, and to make thinks more complecated theres nothing in the first 3 episides to contradic the bible on the show you've been givven.What would you have belieaved then?????????/
As for Megatrons face in our Beast Wars.......the toy design did have a simular face.

 

[sto_vo_kor_2000]

Wait, where are the G1 Prowl, Ironhide, and Silverbolt in Beast Wars?

Like I said they didnt get to be on the show but they did get figures in the toyline and were in the 2nd issue of the new IDW Beast Wars comic.....Big Convoy calls them Honerable Prowl,Ironhide and Silverbolt.The Japanes did have different names for these figures then we did.

Here are some pics

Prowl ,Ironhide and Silverbolt robot modes

Prowl ,Ironhide and Silverbolt beast modes

And their combined mode Magnaboss