If Everything Going On Is So Awful...

[Joker]

Why is it selling so well? This is a question that has been bugging me since around Avengers Dissasembled, which was when the cries of "marvel is ruining comics forever!!!" started up. If everything sucks so much, according to alot of people on here, why is it all selling like hot cakes? Take Civil War for example. Almost all I hear on these boards and other placed on the net is that it sucks. But it's one of the best selling comics every month. Same goes for the Spider-Man titles. Are all you people who hate these things still buying them? And if so, why? That's the basis of our society. If we don't like something, we don't buy it, and it either goes away for good, or it changes into something that we do like. So if you hate it, why keep buying it and sending the message to Marvel that you don't hate it. It's no wonder Quesada says the interent doesn't count if everyone who *****es about stuff like this still buys every book. Or maybe he's right. Maybe your opinions don't count in the grand scheme of things. Maybe for every person who gets on here, and says that he hates everything that Marvel is doing, there are 10, or 20 people who don't post on here who absolutely love it, because they're not enourmous whiney fanboys who feel that Marvel owes them something, when really, they don't. They only owe you something if you put down your $3 every week on Spider-Man, or Civil War, or New Avengers, and then, if you don't like it and you're still so thick that you keep buying it every week, that is in no way Marvel's fault. It's yours for intentionally making yourself suffer through something you get no enjoyment out of.

 

[Elijya]

I've brought this point up on a couple of occassions

The fact is, Internet fans are a very vocal minority, and one tends to forget that for every poster complaining about something, there's three who like whatever it is just fine. Add that to the fact that we have, what? 500 regular comic reading posters here? even if you add up people from all the other major comic message boards, we're still only, like, 10% of the comic reading public. The other 90% don't regularly browse the internet, and they like what they like, and are rarely influenced by the opinions of others on whats good and what's not

you mentioned "Are all you people who hate these things still buying them?" and the answer is yes. I've encountered a fair number of comic reader who are loyalists and completests, and even if they don't like the content, the book contains their favorite character, and even if they don't like what's going on with the character, they don't want to miss a second of what's happening. Now, I disagree with this mentality and have personally debated the matter, but the fact is people will do what they want and buy whatever books for their own reasons.

 

[KingOfDreams]

People are sheep. That's why.

 

[hippie_hunter]

Despite the obvious mischaracterizations of numerous characters, Civil War is an awesome story.

House of M was a good story but the aftermath crapped it up.

Avengers: Disassembled was pure crap though

 

[Joker]

I've brought this point up on a couple of occassions

The fact is, Internet fans are a very vocal minority, and one tends to forget that for every poster complaining about something, there's three who like whatever it is just fine. Add that to the fact that we have, what? 500 regular comic reading posters here? even if you add up people from all the other major comic message boards, we're still only, like, 10% of the comic reading public. The other 90% don't regularly browse the internet, and they like what they like, and are rarely influenced by the opinions of others on whats good and what's not

you mentioned "Are all you people who hate these things still buying them?" and the answer is yes. I've encountered a fair number of comic reader who are loyalists and completests, and even if they don't like the content, the book contains their favorite character, and even if they don't like what's going on with the character, they don't want to miss a second of what's happening. Now, I disagree with this mentality and have personally debated the matter, but the fact is people will do what they want and buy whatever books for their own reasons.

See, I consider myself a completionist, but if something is going on in a book I don't like, or don't care about, I'll drop it. Like F4. I loved Waids run on it, but I didn't seem anything from JMS on it that intrested me, so I dropped it. Just finish off the arc, ya know. But I guess I can understand that aspect. But I think if you're buying it, and keep buying it beyond say, one arc of stuff you don't like, when you know you don't like it, you waive your right to complain, because otherwise you're a huge hypocrite.

 

[Joker]

House of M was a good story but the aftermath crapped it up.

IMHO, the new X-Factor book which came from Decimation is better than all of House Of M combined, and I enjoyed House Of M.

 

[Tropico]

See, I consider myself a completionist, but if something is going on in a book I don't like, or don't care about, I'll drop it. Like F4. I loved Waids run on it, but I didn't seem anything from JMS on it that intrested me, so I dropped it. Just finish off the arc, ya know. But I guess I can understand that aspect. But I think if you're buying it, and keep buying it beyond say, one arc of stuff you don't like, when you know you don't like it, you waive your right to complain, because otherwise you're a huge hypocrite.

You might consider yourself a completionist but you're not really one if you have a collection of a certain comic full of holes, aren't you? I mean, maybe in YOUR criteria, but not in the literal sense of the word; so why use it?

Elijya already addressed the most likely reasons as to why comics like the ones you mentioned still sell. Personally, I've liked Civil War. Most of the comments for the first 2 issues are positive, this third issue is the one that has gotten the negative comments. If there are things that irk me I comment them, but I also comment on stuff that I think is awesome. Sometimes I feel like if you get too entuthiastic about the cool stuff it makes you look like a geek while (apparently) it's "cool" to bash comics. That's probably why you get the impression that fans here are only into bashing stuff.

Since you asked a question and you're getting (what I hope are) honest answers, let me ask you something and answer me honestly: Do you surf general threads about a comic or do you only go into the ones that have more movement and have an eye catching (inflammatory) title?

 

[Anubis]

Like "Civil War Sucks!!" or that sort of thing.

 

[KAD]

I used to collect now I read.

If I enjoy it I Buy it if I don't bye bye.

When I came back to reading comics regularly I was on a Superman kick that died out, jumped to the X-men and was shocked with some of the changes dropped it.

I hated the disassembled arc complained but kept buying (Train wreck, couldn't look away.

Civil War has upset me in many ways but overall I enjoy it.

 

[Ben Urich]

The same reason that utter **** like Da Vinci Code succeed.
There is a disturbing disparity between quality and earnings. We live in sad times. Look at how much more money X3 made compared to Superman Returns.

 

[freemadison]

I love Civil War
I loved the Clone Saga
I liked House of M
I loved Onslaught when I was 12.
I loved Death and Return of Superman.
I liked Knightfall.

I'm a sucker for a crossover. I'm a filthy fanboy and I'm ok with that. I'm willing to suspend belief with certain decisions (Peter being a dumbass or Tony being kinda evil) if the story can still entertain me. If I don't like a story, I don't buy it. etc. etc.

 

[KAD]

If Marvel had Cahonees ??? they would use CW to make Tony a villian

 

[hippie_hunter]

IMHO, the new X-Factor book which came from Decimation is better than all of House Of M combined, and I enjoyed House Of M.

Asides from X-Factor and Son of M, the rest of Decimation sucked. Hell, some of the mutants that got depowered: Angel, Iceman, Polaris, Magneto, and Quicksilver already got their powers back in some form. Asides from Professor X (who will probally get his powers back eventually), Decimation really didn't affect any of the major mutants.

 

[Fading]

I don't think ppl hate CW per se. I think they hype it up in their minds, and they get dissapointed, and like Elijya was saying it's the minority complaining. But even then it's mostly about moments, not the entire saga or an entire book even.

Like with Thor/Clor, while it was complained about, that was because of mischaracterization and other problems everyone had. But many ppl who hated that thought Sue's role and note was awesome, and loved Herc slamming Stark. I'm up there that there were moments that I hated and wished they would have thought out better or never had done, but I still like CW and enjoyed #4 and want to see how it ends. It's just easier to talk about what ticked you off than brag on what you like sometimes, especially on the internet.

Plus I don't see a problem with critisism on the boards in reason. As long as we're not absolutely trashing and threatening to ban a book or something and protest in the street, I see no real problem with saying why you disliked something and give reasons. There might be someone out there with little cash and wondering what he should pick up and it helps inform choices.

I'm just in the boat with a lot of ppl that while I enjoy CW, I dislike mis-characterization of ppl like Mr. Fantastic, and see this could have long term ramifications for doing something he just wouldn't do. Complaints like that aren't about CW in general as much as the writers take on certain characters in CW. The CW plot is great, art awesome, and is delivering for the most part. But portrayal of the pro's and mainly Stark and Reed can almost take you out of it a bit, and especially worry you if you're long time fans of theirs.

Not to count our voices are heard sometimes. Fans getting disgruntled on the motivation for IM and Stark fighting was heard and their putting out a one shot IM and Cap deal to specifically go in detail on them. In that case the fans who want to see more out of CW were heard and brought a positive change, where as if your discontent and don't voice what's troubling you nothing every changes.

 

[Jennifer Walters]

People are sheep. That's why.

Best and yet most simple post in this thread to explain this situation.

 

[Union Jack]

i have no complaints myself..i'm enjoying civil war and new excalibur....plus the new avengers and captainamerica..

i think marvel is pretty good at the mo...im enjoying more than DC.

and to have a UJ mini coming out soon is the icing on a fairly nice cake too..

 

[KingOfDreams]

Best and yet most simple post in this thread to explain this situation.

These big events are given so much hype and so much press. So people are like, if it's being given this much attention it has to be good. And when it finally starts often to understand what's going on you have to buy a whole ton of tie-in books. Also, the strategic use of cliffhangers and shockers gets people to keep buying. They have to know what's happening next.

 

[Dope Nose]

I'd say they're selling based on shock value.

 

[Norman Osborn]

Why is it selling so well?"

The same reason Brittany Spears sells so well.....she connects with the masses....and historically the masses aren't the most "critical" people in the world...you couldn't possibly argue that Brittany's music has more substance then let's say "Dream Theater".....but who outsells who by the millions>?

If everything sucks so much, according to alot of people on here, why is it all selling like hot cakes? Take Civil War for example. Almost all I hear on these boards and other placed on the net is that it sucks. But it's one of the best selling comics every month.

I can't speak for any other boards but I've found the resounding majority of this board actually likes Civil War or are at least giving it a chance....even posters who hate the "Unmasking" are onboard

Same goes for the Spider-Man titles. Are all you people who hate these things still buying them? And if so, why? That's the basis of our society. If we don't like something, we don't buy it, and it either goes away for good, or it changes into something that we do like.

I personally don't buy any Spidey comics other than USM.....but it's just like in the Brittany Spears example.....I don't buy her music either...doesn't stop my daughter and her friends from buying it....

it seems to me that there's a perception around here that dissenters of much of what Marvel is putting out, are dissenters because they like being different or because they think it makes them feel superior in some way?....I can't speak for anyone else but I personally hate being a dissenter......there's nothing I would rather do than to walk into a music shop and have to debate which of the top selling albums I'll purchase today because I love them all equally.....but that's not what happens...I end up in the bargain bin wondering why the hell a store would sell a Boston debut album for peanuts....that's just the way it is.....

One other note, your belief that the majority of people here complain probably has merit......an old Marketing rule of thumb is satified customers say little to nothing about good to adequate service, you can't shut up the guy that hated the service

So if you hate it, why keep buying it and sending the message to Marvel that you don't hate it. It's no wonder Quesada says the interent doesn't count if everyone who *****es about stuff like this still buys every book.

Once again I think you're a bit misinformed on the purchasing practices of a complainer.....other than a few "collectors"...I can't off the top of my head remember anyone at this board who claims to hate it but buys it anyway.....

Or maybe he's right. Maybe your opinions don't count in the grand scheme of things. Maybe for every person who gets on here, and says that he hates everything that Marvel is doing, there are 10, or 20 people who don't post on here who absolutely love it,

You are correct

because they're not enourmous whiney fanboys who feel that Marvel owes them something, when really, they don't.

Whiney?......you know this gets a little tired......we have one group of people who hate Marvel's direction that are constantly labelled whiners while the supporters dubbed Marvel Zombies....why can't we just be different?....or is the anonymity of the internet such that we feel no need to respect anyone?.....it's not like someone's going to come through the screen after you or call you on your comments in person right?....I was a big comic book fan in the 70's.....and believe me, that came with a price....I was constantly ridiculed by other kids...hell I was ridiculed by Teachers who felt the medium was for a lazy mind......but as bad as it was to be ridiculed by the "non-comic book reading community"....it's far worse in here amongst a population of comic book readers?.....we're harder on one of our own than any "non-comic book reader" could possibly be...and that's sad

They only owe you something if you put down your $3 every week on Spider-Man, or Civil War, or New Avengers, and then, if you don't like it and you're still so thick that you keep buying it every week, that is in no way Marvel's fault. It's yours for intentionally making yourself suffer through something you get no enjoyment out of.

Marvel owes me nothing....and I owe it nothing....I purchase books I like and that's it......but that doesn't negate my right to criticize a book I feel is going downhill, espeshially when it features a character I grew up loving!

 

[Phatman]

I haven't bought a comic since 1996 and I collected regulary since the 80's. To me, today's stories like House of M, Dissassembled and Civil war are too full of gimmicks, plot rehashes of stuff already done. A lot of the characters have grown past this stuff and these lazy inept writers keep going back to it.
Stuff like Wanda and her kids her temporary insanity, Simon in the safari Jacket and glasses. A lot of that stuff was dealt with in the pages of West Coast Avengers. The SHRA is a rehash of MRA in the late 80's. These stories were already written and better at that. If most Marvel Zombies headed down to the back issues section of their Local Comic shop they'd see this.

That being said a lot of the characterizations are off. It's like the writers are just about seeing their version of a story told continuity be damned.

But I do keep abreast of what's going on here on the message boards and Wikipedia. I'd say most people buying these books are completists, some enjoy the story. If only they would go search out BACK ISSUES (Any Vol 1 Book) They'd be on the side of us who feel The current comics are horrid rehashes of old stories.

But the sales on these newer books come nowhere near the sales of multi-crossovers like "Acts of Vengeance." In my high school days. Back then a midlist comic like Iron Man or Quasar sold 200,000 units today a toplist comic barely sells 50,000.

 

[Vic Von Doom]

If Marvel had Cahonees ??? they would use CW to make Tony a villian

Uh...they did. This is my main problem with CW. It's supposed to be a "Which side are you on?" kind of thing, but it's really not. Other writers in tie-ins have made the line more blurry, but in the main book, Millar is such a political writer, you know? And he is not in any way trying to look at the issue from both sides. I re-read CW 1-4 yesterday, and there's no internal conflict in the reader. Iron Man's side is WRONG, and Cap's side is RIGHT. Hell, in #4, someone from Tony's team MURDERS someone from Cap's! In cold blood! Sue leaves Reed, the Thing leaves the country rather than fight for Tony, Spider-Man is about to switch sides, and after that last page?

Could there have been a more blatant way to say "TONY'S SIDE IS THE BAD SIDE!!" I'm still enjoying it, just wish that Millar could be a little better at showing both sides of the issue.

 

[Union Jack]

heh...yeah thats pretty true...he oughta build in a big neon side into his iron tech saying "bad guy here!!"

 

[YJ1]

I don't think ppl hate CW per se. I think they hype it up in their minds, and they get dissapointed, and like Elijya was saying it's the minority complaining. But even then it's mostly about moments, not the entire saga or an entire book even.

Like with Thor/Clor, while it was complained about, that was because of mischaracterization and other problems everyone had. But many ppl who hated that thought Sue's role and note was awesome, and loved Herc slamming Stark. I'm up there that there were moments that I hated and wished they would have thought out better or never had done, but I still like CW and enjoyed #4 and want to see how it ends. It's just easier to talk about what ticked you off than brag on what you like sometimes, especially on the internet.

Despite the obvious mischaracterizations of numerous characters, Civil War is an awesome story.

Could there have been a more blatant way to say "TONY'S SIDE IS THE BAD SIDE!!" I'm still enjoying it, just wish that Millar could be a little better at showing both sides of the issue.

Mischaracterization and poor writing have crept in to this mega-crossover and that's truly disappointing but it's still an entertaining read with some of the best artwork in the business.

House of M was wonderful and it shattered the status quo. It placed mutants back in the severe minority category and helped to erase the taint of the Morrison X-Men run.

Disassembled was crap but it led to what was a damn good New Avengers run. I had my doubts that Wolverine and Spider-Man on an Avengers team would work but it was very well done.

I think marvel is pretty good at the mo...im enjoying more than DC.

Flaws and all, Civil War outclasses anything DC has done in years. I just read the new JLA #1 and there's no way I'm picking up #2.

 

[Ben Urich]

Flaws and all, Civil War outclasses anything DC has done in years. I just read the new JLA #1 and there's no way I'm picking up #2.

Did you not read Identity Crisis or Infinite Crisis? Are you not reading Checkmate and Y: The Last Man?

I feel the opposite way. Marvel's quality has slipped nearly across the board since, oh, 2003. I think it all started when they retconned Morrison's brilliant New X-Men run out of existence. Since then, the only Marvel I can stand is Daredevil, Runaways, and Astonishing X-Men (which I pick up begrudgingly because I am still irritated about Morrison.)
DC, conversely, has been on a huge upswing. Identity Crisis was their best story since Kingdom Come, and Infinite Crisis improved upon that. I don't know how everything is going to pan out but right now DC is the company to beat.

 

[Bishop2]

People are sheep. That's why.

Basically.

At the end of the day, despite us Internet people knowing the history of these character like the backs of our various hands, most people who read comics DON'T know all that history. Most of them are relatively new, and many of those aren't even on the Internet. They know about as much about these characters as the writers do, which is to say not a whole hell of a lot, and they're just as happy to read any major story with action and drama in it, since they can't tell if the drama is good or bad.