If Jean had come back totally 'good' in X3...

[X-Maniac]

I tried thinking about it that way except that it doesn't work that way, simply because by definition Jean doesn't become "Phoenix" in any sense until she dies first. Only at the moment of death are her powers supposed to be fully manifested, and then she's supposed to be good first before being corrupted. So technically you never see good Phoenix in the films. Just Jean, and then immediately after Dark Phoenix. So something is missing. And that's the part I wanted to see.

I disagree. Jean changed after Liberty Island (Joss Whedon's script, from which a few elements were taken, had Jean in her Phoenix costume at the end of X1, right after the radiation field enveloped them all).

She is very much Phoenix in X2. The expanded powers, the power burn-outs (such as not being able to tackle the second missile), even the fire in her eyes and the aura around her arms (BEFORE she died) are absolutely the essence of comicbook Phoenix, whose awesome power shut down at the worst moments because her mind couldn't handle it. In the comics, her mind installed 'psionic circuit breakers' to shut off her power, and we later learned Xavier had also blocked part of her power as a child, preventing her telepathic powers emerging until much later. So the theme of artificially restrained power is part of her story.

I'd rather her character's development was clearer in X1 and X2, giving X3 a single, absolute, inarguable path to follow. X3 chose a definite path, but it wasn't what some of you had intepreted was going to happen. The problem is that Jean's story in X1 and X2 is totally and utterly vague and open to different interpretations.

 

[The Original Bamfer]

I disagree. Jean changed after Liberty Island (Joss Whedon's script, from which a few elements were taken, had Jean in her Phoenix costume at the end of X1, right after the radiation field enveloped them all).

She is very much Phoenix in X2. The expanded powers, the power burn-outs (such as not being able to tackle the second missile), even the fire in her eyes and the aura around her arms (BEFORE she died) are absolutely the essence of comicbook Phoenix, whose awesome power shut down at the worst moments because her mind couldn't handle it. In the comics, her mind installed 'psionic circuit breakers' to shut off her power, and we later learned Xavier had also blocked part of her power as a child, preventing her telepathic powers emerging until much later. So the theme of artificially restrained power is part of her story.

I'd rather her character's development was clearer in X1 and X2, giving X3 a single, absolute, inarguable path to follow. X3 chose a definite path, but it wasn't what some of you had intepreted was going to happen. The problem is that Jean's story in X1 and X2 is totally and utterly vague and open to different interpretations.

Exactly. I agree with everything that was said.

(See Bold in Quote): I think that may be a good thing, too. It allows people to form their own ideas, and, as long as it connects well enough with TLS's concepts, it could help to satisfy fans.

 

[ntcrawler]

I disagree. Jean changed after Liberty Island (Joss Whedon's script, from which a few elements were taken, had Jean in her Phoenix costume at the end of X1, right after the radiation field enveloped them all).

So her piping changing to red? That would be interesting. Her reaction to Magneto's machine was very similar to Senator Kelly's.

She is very much Phoenix in X2. The expanded powers, the power burn-outs (such as not being able to tackle the second missile), even the fire in her eyes and the aura around her arms (BEFORE she died) are absolutely the essence of comicbook Phoenix, whose awesome power shut down at the worst moments because her mind couldn't handle it.

You also see similar things happening to Jean when piloting the shuttle in tho comics. Her power radiates and flares outward as she struggles to fight the radiation that's killing her, until it reaches a point so strong that it attracts the Phoenix to her. I always understood it as the Phoenix being about death and rebirth, and it's only after she dies and is reborn that her power REALLY becomes obvious. I consider this a critical step that the movies missed. They oversimplified it and took the good Jean out of the equation too soon.

In the comics, her mind installed 'psionic circuit breakers' to shut off her power, and we later learned Xavier had also blocked part of her power as a child, preventing her telepathic powers emerging until much later. So the theme of artificially restrained power is part of her story.

Except there was no evidence of this X2, in regards to mental blocks. This is the part I don't agree with strongly in X3 because Xavier has always been portrayed as a wise man who stresses hope and a mutant's ability to cope with and control their powers, no matter what. That change was unexpected and turned him into a panicky, controlling man who later kept trying to toss a net on and smother Jean, which only made her angry. A good interpretation would be to show that as a result of her powers manifesting prematurely (ie due to emotional trauma as she herself points out in X1) due to Annie's death and her experiencing Annie's death, that her powers, especially her telepathy did not mature they way they should have and only exploded out of her ofter Liberty Island, which would explain her difficulty in keeping all those thoughts and voices out of her head.

I'd rather her character's development was clearer in X1 and X2, giving X3 a single, absolute, inarguable path to follow. X3 chose a definite path, but it wasn't what some of you had intepreted was going to happen.

Precisely. We do have some ideas of what Singer would have intended and from what we can tell so far he wanted to choose a different and definitely more gradual path in a 2-movie story arc. Not the cliff dive we got in X3.

The problem is that Jean's story in X1 and X2 is totally and utterly vague and open to different interpretations.

At this point, I think people would prefer to stick to vagueness and have some feeling of hope, instead of X3 portraying everything in a tone that leads only to total despair and doom. Hence why books such as Grail are able to tell a completly different story and yet contradict nothing established in X1 and X2.

 

[X-Maniac]

So her piping changing to red? That would be interesting. Her reaction to Magneto's machine was very similar to Senator Kelly's.

I believe he had wanted her in her green and gold comicbook costume, which obviously was never going to happen... but nonetheless, the intention was for her to have become Phoenix without having died. Becoming Phoenix from the radiation, but not from dying. The comicbook story became rather different in the movie - in the comic we have Jean piloting a shuttle through a radiation storm, dying and becoming Phoenix; in the movie we have Jean in a radiation storm in X1, seemingly becoming Phoenix, but apparently dying while remotely/telekinetically piloting a craft at the end of X2... So the events of the creation of Phoenix became split up between the end of two movies, with the firebird appearing under the water (as a nod to fans or more?) at the very end of X2. Further to that, Bryan had also (at one point) intended the Phoenix to be an external force that entered Jean's mind during her unauthorised use of Cerebro. So, as we can see, it's all a bit loose, vague and muddled. I prefer absolutes and definites...

You also see similar things happening to Jean when piloting the shuttle in tho comics. Her power radiates and flares outward as she struggles to fight the radiation that's killing her, until it reaches a point so strong that it attracts the Phoenix to her. I always understood it as the Phoenix being about death and rebirth, and it's only after she dies and is reborn that her power REALLY becomes obvious. I consider this a critical step that the movies missed. They oversimplified it and took the good Jean out of the equation too soon.

Yes, the movies didn't do this very well... or at least not very clearly.

Except there was no evidence of this X2, in regards to mental blocks. This is the part I don't agree with strongly in X3 because Xavier has always been portrayed as a wise man who stresses hope and a mutant's ability to cope with and control their powers, no matter what. That change was unexpected and turned him into a panicky, controlling man who later kept trying to toss a net on and smother Jean, which only made her angry. A good interpretation would be to show that as a result of her powers manifesting prematurely (ie due to emotional trauma as she herself points out in X1) due to Annie's death and her experiencing Annie's death, that her powers, especially her telepathy did not mature they way they should have and only exploded out of her ofter Liberty Island, which would explain her difficulty in keeping all those thoughts and voices out of her head.

All we have in earlier evidence is Jean saying it would be dangerous for 'someone like her' to use Cerebro...

Precisely. We do have some ideas of what Singer would have intended and from what we can tell so far he wanted to choose a different and definitely more gradual path in a 2-movie story arc. Not the cliff dive we got in X3.

We have vague notions of what Singer wanted. He never spelled anything out and he never stuck around to make sure his ideas gained clarity and came to fruition.

At this point, I think people would prefer to stick to vagueness and have some feeling of hope, instead of X3 portraying everything in a tone that leads only to total despair and doom. Hence why books such as Grail are able to tell a completly different story and yet contradict nothing established in X1 and X2.

Fair enough. X1 and X2 are loose enough to allow alternative conclusions to the saga. Not an ideal scenario and not normally an advantage for things to be so nebulous and understated/underdeveloped.

 

[ntcrawler]

All we have in earlier evidence is Jean saying it would be dangerous for 'someone like her' to use Cerebro...

Because as Xavier points out, she wasn't ready yet. There are other dangers inherent in Cerebro that Xavier knew about beacuse he had years to wrestle with them, but his enthusiastic student did not. She almost acts like some sort of forbidden toy that she's not allowed to play with.

Fair enough. X1 and X2 are loose enough to allow alternative conclusions to the saga. Not an ideal scenario and not normally an advantage for things to be so nebulous and understated/underdeveloped.

Me too, but seeing how X3 turned out, I'd rather keep the hope alive than be stuck with the dead end that X3 was made to be instead.

 

[PhoenixFire]

me too, i wonder what costume she would wore if she was the good phoenix???

Her X-uniform with the piping modified to depict the bird on her chest, seems appropriate. Perhaps the larger one typical to her non-Dark-Phoenix red outfit in the comics where the wings go over her shoulders and it's tail extends down her entire body.

Because as Xavier points out, she wasn't ready yet. There are other dangers inherent in Cerebro that Xavier knew about beacuse he had years to wrestle with them, but his enthusiastic student did not. She almost acts like some sort of forbidden toy that she's not allowed to play with.

In the context given by TLS it seems he intended to never allow her to use Cerebro for fear of unleashing her Phoenix personality once he had caged it. Theoretically it is her use of cerebro in X1, not Magneto's device, that first catalyzed the re-emergence of her true psionic potential, culminating in her 'death' at Alkali Lake and subsequent resurrection.

 

[ntcrawler]

Her X-uniform with the piping modified to depict the bird on her chest, seems appropriate. Perhaps the larger one typical to her non-Dark-Phoenix red outfit in the comics where the wings go over her shoulders and it's tail extends down her entire body.

Would look cool. Or this is the outfit that manifests itself when she unleashes the full potential of her powers when she needs to do something powerful. Having it appear along with the flame effects and then revertingback down to her normal outfit when she "powers down".

In the context given by TLS it seems he intended to never allow her to use Cerebro for fear of unleashing her Phoenix personality once he had caged it.

Which would contradict the extra scene in X1 when Xavier talks to her that he will let her use it, just that he doesn't feel she's ready yet and genuinely doesn't want her to get hurt. He didn't say that because he was afraid of his own ass and had something to hide, but that he was genuinely concerned, for her.

Theoretically it is her use of cerebro in X1, not Magneto's device, that first catalyzed the re-emergence of her true psionic potential, culminating in her 'death' at Alkali Lake and subsequent resurrection.

I have to disagree feel as I feel that Cerebro had other, unrelated dangers of its own. It hurt the Stepford Cuckoos when they use it and it could have hurt Jean as well unless she knew what she was doing or had the right mental discipline to operate it safely. I always considered Magneto's machine to be the ultimate trigger since it was never established what the machine would do to mutants, only to non-mutants. They only assumed it would be harmless to existing mutants. But Jean could be considered a special case since her mutation was triggered early due to her childhood emotional trauma (as she points out at the begininng during the Senate committee hearing), and therefore may have ended up in an unfinished state which Magneto's machine completed.

But to each his own.

 

[ntcrawler]

I was never comfortable with the idea that the Phoenix force or Jean's phoenix-level powers had to be something that's inherently evil or dangerous and that the only outcome is her going berzerk only to be hunted down and either committ suicide and be destroyed.

To me that ends up creating a story that makes one feel cold, helpless and empty and ignores alot of potential. It's essentially the easy way out and really leaves out the human factor.

That is why I'm thrilled at the opportunity to consider the Phoenix in a more positive and optimistic light, that it can be something beautiful and beneficial instead of destructive, and the ultimate way it is wielded and used depends on the person wielding it, Jean. Whom I feel can let compassion and love control her more than her inner anger and temper. It's very easy to kill off and bury a character and thus end their story right there. It takes an effort, it's a challenge to let a character live, and show what happens next and how they cope. Jean's not the only mutant who is dangerous. Xavier and Storm are quite dangerous as well but haven't given into destruction or temptation. Marie's powers are uncontrollable as well. Perhaps she and Marie could serve as each other's role models and look up to each other to finding ways to control their gifts. And certainly Scott Summers understands what it means to be dangerous. His power truly is uncontrollable and has to rely on artificial, technological means to hold it back. Him being meticulous and careful up to the point where he's uptight is the result of him not wanting to hurt or kill someone. That too could serve as a great role model and example to Jean. That if he can do it, so can she. Certainly serve as a reliable, trustworthy shoulder to lean on to help her get through this. She's always felt safe with him and he's served as a great anchor to keep her feet firmly planted on earth and with humanity. Even though at her Phoenix level powers she would be more powerful than Xavier, Xavier still would have wisdom and knowledge that only comes with experience, and these are things that could serve as inspiration to Jean to again help her cope and wield her powers responsibly. This was certainly the approach taken in "Grail" and the results were very promising.
Yes, the Phoenix can be destructive and fearsome if Jean ever gives into her anger or loses control, but it can be something beautiful and beneficial too.
There are plenty of conflicts and dangers to which Jean's powers alone would not be enough to save the day, but she would still have to rely on her other skills and knowledge as a scientist and doctor, not to mention the rest of the team. Having incredible powers ins't enough unless you know how to use them.

The ultimate lesson taught at the Xavier institute is about being accepted and learning to control yourself and cope with your gifts. And Jean could be seen as one of its greatest students and examples to the other students.

Stories on a hopeful note like this are more difficult to write because it is easier to just kill off or sacrifice a character, but IMHO stories like this are ultimately more fulfilling and rewarding. Both to the readers, and of course to the characters. I think Jean, Scott, and the rest of the Xavier school would agree

 

[BMM]

I disagree. Jean changed after Liberty Island (Joss Whedon's script, from which a few elements were taken, had Jean in her Phoenix costume at the end of X1, right after the radiation field enveloped them all).

She is very much Phoenix in X2. The expanded powers, the power burn-outs (such as not being able to tackle the second missile), even the fire in her eyes and the aura around her arms (BEFORE she died) are absolutely the essence of comicbook Phoenix, whose awesome power shut down at the worst moments because her mind couldn't handle it. In the comics, her mind installed 'psionic circuit breakers' to shut off her power, and we later learned Xavier had also blocked part of her power as a child, preventing her telepathic powers emerging until much later. So the theme of artificially restrained power is part of her story.

I'd rather her character's development was clearer in X1 and X2, giving X3 a single, absolute, inarguable path to follow. X3 chose a definite path, but it wasn't what some of you had intepreted was going to happen. The problem is that Jean's story in X1 and X2 is totally and utterly vague and open to different interpretations.

It's not any more vague than the comic books. Go figure. Besides, I don't find Jean to be entirely Phoenix in X2. As is noted via the audio commentary during her final scenes, Jean and her power as Phoenix is not achieved until her final moments in X2.

 

[The Original Bamfer]

Key:
Comic comparison will be GREEN
Movie Comparison will be RED

Phoenix Saga Comparison
-Jean pilots shuddle which is exposed to radiation damage.
-Jean works with the X-men, throughout radiation, to stop Magneto.
-The Phoenix Force saves Jean's and the X-men's life, sending her to the bottom of Jamaica bay in a healing cocoon, and creating a sort of clone with part of Jean's essense within it... this is Phoenix.
-The radiation causes an evolution (much like Senator Kelly's) within Jean, though it is only supposed to affect humans, and cracks her mental blocks (with the help of her using Cerebro). She is gradually becoming Phoenix.
-Phoenix, believing she is Jean, rises from Jamaica bay and aids the X-Men using her new-found power.
-Jean's new power slowly seeps through the cracked mental blocks, as she saves the X-men (The missile, premonitions, the wave, etc...). Her sacrifice causes her to 'die'. She rises from Alkali Lake.
-Phoenix was cast into multiple illusions where she was the the love of Jason Wyngarde (Mastermind) during th 18th century. When Cyclops, using the psychic link he had held with Jean, broke the illusion; Mastermind killed Cyclops' astral form. Making her snap into Dark Phoenix.
-Jean's confusion and uncontrollable power led her to believe she killed Scott, causing Jean to go into an insane-like state. This was also influenced by her knowledge of Xavier blocking her mind off as a child.
-Dark Phoenix devours a star resulting in five billion deaths. Xavier believes Jean can control Dark Phoenix. She seems to.
-Xavier fights Jean to block off her power and the Dark Phoenix persona, hoping to allow Jean to gain control. Jean, within the Dark Phoenix persona, kills Xavier. Hints of the real Jean bleed through, but are quickly taken over by the persona. Magneto helps her out.
-The X-men and Shi'ar Imperial Guard fight over the fate of Phoenix. Dark Phoenix returns, and, after some destruction, she commits suicide. The real Jean is found underneath Jamaica Bay.
-Military forces and the X-Men fight the Brotherhood over the cure and Jean. Jean is threatened by the military forces. The Dark Phoenix persona takes over, killing many and destroying Alcatraz. Jean allows Wolverine to kill her.

So, it's just a quick rundown. But, you'll notice, that a lot of it does resemble the Phoenix Saga of the comics. There was radiation, there was rising from the water, there were healing cocoons, there were big final showdowns, there were very similar reasons as to why they snapped, there were suicide-like defeats, etc... There are many things that the comic and movie sagas did, in fact, have in common. The rising from the water took place at different times within the movies and comics. The Shi'ar empire didn't exist in the movies, but the government and Magneto were fair replacements. Movie-Phoenix didn't devour a star (Thankfully), but she did kill a lot of people and cause a lot of destruction. Apart from some of these necessary changes, the movie-verse's Phoenix may have been a bit more based on it's source than some may have thought.

If you view Jean as Phoenix in X2 and Dark Phoenix in X3, it creates a fairly suitable Phoenix Saga. The comparison I made helps to show that.

 

[BMM]

Key:
Comic comparison will be GREEN
Movie Comparison will be RED

Phoenix Saga Comparison
-Jean pilots shuddle which is exposed to radiation damage.
-Jean works with the X-men, throughout radiation, to stop Magneto.
-The Phoenix Force saves Jean's and the X-men's life, sending her to the bottom of Jamaica bay in a healing cocoon, and creating a sort of clone with part of Jean's essense within it... this is Phoenix.
-The radiation causes an evolution (much like Senator Kelly's) within Jean, though it is only supposed to affect humans, and cracks her mental blocks (with the help of her using Cerebro). She is gradually becoming Phoenix.
-Phoenix, believing she is Jean, rises from Jamaica bay and aids the X-Men using her new-found power.
-Jean's new power slowly seeps through the cracked mental blocks, as she saves the X-men (The missile, premonitions, the wave, etc...). Her sacrifice causes her to 'die'. She rises from Alkali Lake.
-Phoenix was cast into multiple illusions where she was the the love of Jason Wyngarde (Mastermind) during th 18th century. When Cyclops, using the psychic link he had held with Jean, broke the illusion; Mastermind killed Cyclops' astral form. Making her snap into Dark Phoenix.
-Jean's confusion and uncontrollable power led her to believe she killed Scott, causing Jean to go into an insane-like state. This was also influenced by her knowledge of Xavier blocking her mind off as a child.
-Dark Phoenix devours a star resulting in five billion deaths. Xavier believes Jean can control Dark Phoenix. She seems to.
-Xavier fights Jean to block off her power and the Dark Phoenix persona, hoping to allow Jean to gain control. Jean, within the Dark Phoenix persona, kills Xavier. Hints of the real Jean bleed through, but are quickly taken over by the persona. Magneto helps her out.
-The X-men and Shi'ar Imperial Guard fight over the fate of Phoenix. Dark Phoenix returns, and, after some destruction, she commits suicide. The real Jean is found underneath Jamaica Bay.
-Military forces and the X-Men fight the Brotherhood over the cure and Jean. Jean is threatened by the military forces. The Dark Phoenix persona takes over, killing many and destroying Alcatraz. Jean allows Wolverine to kill her.

So, it's just a quick rundown. But, you'll notice, that a lot of it does resemble the Phoenix Saga of the comics. There was radiation, there was rising from the water, there were healing cocoons, there were big final showdowns, there were very similar reasons as to why they snapped, there were suicide-like defeats, etc... There are many things that the comic and movie sagas did, in fact, have in common. The rising from the water took place at different times within the movies and comics. The Shi'ar empire didn't exist in the movies, but the government and Magneto were fair replacements. Movie-Phoenix didn't devour a star (Thankfully), but she did kill a lot of people and cause a lot of destruction. Apart from some of these necessary changes, the movie-verse's Phoenix may have been a bit more based on it's source than some may have thought.

If you view Jean as Phoenix in X2 and Dark Phoenix in X3, it creates a fairly suitable Phoenix Saga. The comparison I made helps to show that.

Obviously that's the way it would best be viewed post The Last Stand, although I don't find that to necessarily be the course of events concerning Jean Grey intended by or represented in the previous films, which is why it is somewhat off to me. Aside from that, I don't disagree with this analysis via The Last Stand.

 

[Cosmic Mind]

sort of, is a good comparison, that analysis is great bamfer..

 

[ntcrawler]

Good comparison, Bamfer.

But it would be hardly a waste if Jean had come back in control and good. There are still plenty of stories that could be told as outlined above, and neither would the ultimate fate have to be death, either. If anything, the way events are portrayed in the movies, or rather the way the concept of the Phoenix is set up only helps to make it easier to deal with the situation in a non-fatal way.
Maybe I'm an optimist at heart, but when it involves a person's life, I'd rather take my chances and try to save them instead of taking the easy way out and just letting them die. Captain Kirk did not believe in the concept of a no-win scenario, and neither do I

 

[Bastila]

If you view Jean as Phoenix in X2 and Dark Phoenix in X3, it creates a fairly suitable Phoenix Saga. The comparison I made helps to show that.

that what i do, X2 flame like Phoenix is good Phoenix X3 is well Dark Phoenix, i must have posted my theroy on that a million times. but no one took notice, but thank you for saying that as well, as thats what i think as well.

 

[The Original Bamfer]

Good comparison, Bamfer.

But it would be hardly a waste if Jean had come back in control and good. There are still plenty of stories that could be told as outlined above, and neither would the ultimate fate have to be death, either. If anything, the way events are portrayed in the movies, or rather the way the concept of the Phoenix is set up only helps to make it easier to deal with the situation in a non-fatal way.
Maybe I'm an optimist at heart, but when it involves a person's life, I'd rather take my chances and try to save them instead of taking the easy way out and just letting them die. Captain Kirk did not believe in the concept of a no-win scenario, and neither do I

Thanks - but to prove why they actually killed her off... Dark Phoenix was really killed off in the comics, much like X3's Dark Phoenix. Only, in the comics, it wasn't ever Jean - it was a replica of her. In the movie-verse, there is no replica. What they did in terms of her death was very comic-based... (other than having Wolverine do it). They just can't bring her back like they did in the comics because the real Jean WAS that which died in the movie.

 

[ntcrawler]

Thanks - but to prove why they actually killed her off... Dark Phoenix was really killed off in the comics, much like X3's Dark Phoenix. Only, in the comics, it wasn't ever Jean - it was a replica of her.

Exactly. That's why later in the comics you don't feel as bad. It's not as big of a dead-end as it is in the movie and it's easier to accept what happened when you realized that it was a good copy of Jean, but not really Jean.

In the movie-verse, there is no replica. What they did in terms of her death was very comic-based... (other than having Wolverine do it).

Except the circumstances for her being able to control herself and her powers were more favorable and manageable in the movie than they were set up to be in the comics, especially when there were several alterative solutions available.

They just can't bring her back like they did in the comics because the real Jean WAS that which died in the movie.

Perhaps, but that could also be left up to interpretation. It all depends on the true nature of Jean's powers and what let her survive in the first place. Perhaps the advanced state of her telepathy allows her to remain anchored to the world thus giving her the innate ability te transcend death. Maybe it's possible that she can't die, but instead can simply choose to NOT return. That is the true nature of the Phoenix after all. It really can't die, at least not the way you and I consider the concept of death. If that's the case, if she's out there, then it would be possible to set up future events such that it would change her mind...

 

[PhoenixFire]

Thanks - but to prove why they actually killed her off... Dark Phoenix was really killed off in the comics, much like X3's Dark Phoenix. Only, in the comics, it wasn't ever Jean - it was a replica of her. In the movie-verse, there is no replica. What they did in terms of her death was very comic-based... (other than having Wolverine do it). They just can't bring her back like they did in the comics because the real Jean WAS that which died in the movie.

Except Endsong (and the upcoming Warsong) now proclaim (in another Phoenix retcon) that Phoenix and Jean Grey are one and the same and always will be.

Jean and Phoenix being separate entities was likewise a retcon from the original story where she manifested Phoenix powers following the radiation in the shuttle. And the story in which Dark Phoenix is killed (through Jean's suicide) is likewise an editorial retcon of the writer's original story which simply had the Shi'ar ddepowering Jean and returning her to Earth. This was later published as "The Story Untold" including a transcript of the discussion between writer and editor regarding Jean/Phoenix's fate.

There was also a retcon in which the Phoenix was a power battled over by the wizards Merlyn and Necron culminating in a battle over Rachel summers until the mantle of Phoenix was once more passed to Jean during her honeymoon in an alternate future published in the Cyclops and Phoenix miniseries.

According to Endsong, now, "The Phoenix Force" which impersonated Jean, became the Dark Phoenix, and summarilly died was her metaphysical cosmic self, an incarnation of her limitless powers as the White Phoenix of the Crown.

Like Dark Phoenix in the comics, Jean in the films rose from the dead and retains the potential to rise again. And again and again and again.

Except that Rothman wants the X-Men films dead in general.

 

[X-Maniac]

Except Endsong (and the upcoming Warsong) now proclaim (in another Phoenix retcon) that Phoenix and Jean Grey are one and the same and always will be.

Jean and Phoenix being separate entities was likewise a retcon from the original story where she manifested Phoenix powers following the radiation in the shuttle. And the story in which Dark Phoenix is killed (through Jean's suicide) is likewise an editorial retcon of the writer's original story which simply had the Shi'ar ddepowering Jean and returning her to Earth. This was later published as "The Story Untold" including a transcript of the discussion between writer and editor regarding Jean/Phoenix's fate.

There was also a retcon in which the Phoenix was a power battled over by the wizards Merlyn and Necron culminating in a battle over Rachel summers until the mantle of Phoenix was once more passed to Jean during her honeymoon in an alternate future published in the Cyclops and Phoenix miniseries.

According to Endsong, now, "The Phoenix Force" which impersonated Jean, became the Dark Phoenix, and summarilly died was her metaphysical cosmic self, an incarnation of her limitless powers as the White Phoenix of the Crown.

Like Dark Phoenix in the comics, Jean in the films rose from the dead and retains the potential to rise again. And again and again and again.

Except that Rothman wants the X-Men films dead in general.

But could movie Jean rise again and again? Would the audience accept that? She'd seem like a mutant floater, a turd that just wouldn't flush!

Would it be better to introduce Rachel Summers as her daughter, or Madelyne Pryor as her Sinister clone...?

 

[ntcrawler]

Except Endsong (and the upcoming Warsong) now proclaim (in another Phoenix retcon) that Phoenix and Jean Grey are one and the same and always will be.

This is the part that confused me. Except that they're treated as separate entities despite Jean saying this. They obviously talk and argue with each other and fight for who has control, and don't have the same memories. In fact Jean even asks her surprised "I thought we were both in the white room of the crown?" as if Phoenix left without Jean's knowledge. Plus the Phoenix does point to to Jean "I helped you when you needed assistance, now I need you to help me in return". If they were one and the same, they wouldn't be switching back and forth like that or splitting up.

According to Endsong, now, "The Phoenix Force" which impersonated Jean, became the Dark Phoenix, and summarilly died was her metaphysical cosmic self, an incarnation of her limitless powers as the White Phoenix of the Crown.

Eh? Just when I thought it made sense. This is why the movieverse was so... promising! THey had a chance to straghten out all these contradictory bios and retcons into a coherent storyline, and instead they decided to run it into a dead-end wall in 3 movies. BOO!!!

Like Dark Phoenix in the comics, Jean in the films rose from the dead and retains the potential to rise again. And again and again and again.

Exactly. It's a consequence either of her advanced powers, or an innate ability due to her powers. If she can survive a mountain of water, she can survive Wolverine's claws. Heck, Mystique did!

I think it's more a matter whether she WANTS to return. If she can find some way of redeeming herself (ie her friends are in danger and only she can save them) or attoning for her sins (ie, Xavier turns out to be alive, Scott turns out to be alive so she can live with herself), that might add fuel to the fire to make her want to come back.

There's one story I read, Resurrection31 written by Juliebmr where basically Jean realizes at the last moments at Alcatraz that Scott's alive and would rather be with him instead. So she just lets Wolverine kill her and get it over with, hence her smile. "Let him cry over an empty corpse. I'm going back to Alkali Lake to be with Scott!" she figures.

Except that Rothman wants the X-Men films dead in general.

Quite correct. And that is unforgiveable. There's too much good potential here to just abandon it the way he wants to. If he doesn't want to produce any more movies, then hand the reigns over to someone that does!

 

[Bastila]

If she can survive a mountain of water, she can survive Wolverine's claws. Heck, Mystique did!

that is what makes me laugh in X3 really as she suvived and Jean died? its like stupid lol, and in Endsong how many times did Logan have to stab Jean to get her weak.

 

[ntcrawler]

But could movie Jean rise again and again? Would the audience accept that? She'd seem like a mutant floater, a turd that just wouldn't flush!

That's how it's going to be if she just comes back as a monster that needs to be hunted down. Like she seems to be in Endsong. Except for that little moment of Logan taking in the situation, it quickly turns into a vampire hunt. Even Scott's reaction I thought was a bit too... determined:

"Jean's back? We need to kill her"
"but but..."
"what color was her costume?"
"yellow, and red"
"see? we need to kill her"

If you bring Jean back for a reason OTHER than to be the target of a hunt (that she's not just some monster that refuses to die and only comes back to annoy everyone), that she actually has a purpose to serve and a reason for wanting to be back and a chance to contribute to the story or to her friends and loved ones, then yes that would be very acceptable.

Death, like resurrection should serve a purpose. Both are very powerful. Either you keep her dead long enough for everyone to feel and accept the impact (like between X2 and X3), or if you bring her back, you do it and keep her alive either permanently or long enough for her and the rest to actually SAVOR it.

Would it be better to introduce Rachel Summers as her daughter,

Rachel Summers can't exist unless you actually let Jean and Scott live long enough to get married, get her pregnant, and give birth. So far in the movieverse, that hasn't happened yet. They've had the engagement ring, but she certainly wasn't pregnant yet and their busy schedule kept them from establishing a date for the wedding. And no, they don't have a secret daughter. The secret daughter showing up at the doorstep routine would be quite a groaner.

or Madelyne Pryor as her Sinister clone...?

Not unless you bring Scott back into the picture to be tormented by Madelyne. It wouldn't be as fun without Scott. Besides, it's never been established that Sinister has been around, and he never had a chance to collect Jean's DNA or eggs. Not unless you want him to be digging up her grave and stealing epithelea (sp?) cells and tissue samples. And that might just get too complicated for its own good. Though it would be fun to have Jean reappear and save Scott, from Madelyne. Or maybe help save Madelyne and give her a chance for a life of her own instead of the doomed brood mare she's made to be in the comics. Grail takes an interesting twist on the whole Madelyne Pryor story btw.

 

[PhoenixFire]

But could movie Jean rise again and again? Would the audience accept that? She'd seem like a mutant floater, a turd that just wouldn't flush!

Would it be better to introduce Rachel Summers as her daughter, or Madelyne Pryor as her Sinister clone...?

As others have pointed out, Mystique has survived worse from Wolverine...

My personal, imagined, X4 has Jean and Scott resurrected through the machinations of Sinister. Then again, it also features the reborn Xavier as a character that's Apocalypse with elements of Shadow King and follows the general storyline and explanation of Onslaught.

This is the part that confused me. Except that they're treated as separate entities despite Jean saying this. They obviously talk and argue with each other and fight for who has control, and don't have the same memories. In fact Jean even asks her surprised "I thought we were both in the white room of the crown?" as if Phoenix left without Jean's knowledge. Plus the Phoenix does point to to Jean "I helped you when you needed assistance, now I need you to help me in return". If they were one and the same, they wouldn't be switching back and forth like that or splitting up.
Eh? Just when I thought it made sense.

It is horrendously confusing, they should've picked one retcon and stuck with it. Basically, Phoenix is a split personality in the comics as well, she and Jean are one and reconciled when they're in the White Hot Room, which according to Xavier is the "nexus of all realities." So she's an immortal, all-powerful aspect of Jean that is her and not her incessantly. Maybe Warsong will smooth things out.

 

[BMM]

But could movie Jean rise again and again? Would the audience accept that? She'd seem like a mutant floater, a turd that just wouldn't flush!

Agreed. Jean is dead. Leave her be. Her continuous resurrections have become a joke within the comics themselves.

Would it be better to introduce Rachel Summers as her daughter, or Madelyne Pryor as her Sinister clone...?

No, probably not. Good luck adapting Madelyne Pryor or Rachel Summers . . . especially without the presence of Jean or Scott.

 

[PhoenixFire]

Agreed. Jean is dead. Leave her be. Her continuous resurrections have become a joke within the comics themselves.

I haven't noticed that trend. Her tombstone in the comics reads "she will rise again" but that is really more of a maudlin statement of fact. Nature of the beast. Phoenix is not so named because of the weighty finality of her demise(s).

 

[ntcrawler]

As others have pointed out, Mystique has survived worse from Wolverine...

And we saw her lie still and dead, didn't we? That's the whole point. If a writer wants a character to survive, they will. Just look at how fast Wolverine's healing factor was in X3 as compared to X1 and X2. It's all arbitrary, really. Just like Magneto being cured but not Jean because some people claimed she wouldn't allow it. Not true, it's all arbitrary and open to interpretation. If she let Logan kill her, she'd let Logan cure her. Either would have the desired result, of neutralizing the danger that she was. Besides, this time around she did say "save me" instead of "kill me". Again, anything is possible. As a writer you just have to want to make it happen.

My personal, imagined, X4 has Jean and Scott resurrected through the machinations of Sinister. Then again, it also features the reborn Xavier as a character that's Apocalypse with elements of Shadow King and follows the general storyline and explanation of Onslaught.

Interesting... I'd like to see it sometime. In the rewrite of X3 that I'm starting off with, I'm sill debating whether I should just let Jean kill off Xavier like she does in the movie or blast him through a wall and turn him into a quadriplegic. I'd rather have him either totally removed from the story or preserved but keeping the same body. I just think the whole idea of him coming back in a different body is wrong. It may work for Lex Luthor but not for Xavier. As for Jean, during the battle of Alcatraz she experiences 3-4 traumatic, life-changing shocks that help shake her back to reality. X4 is about Xavier's war turning into something alot bigger than he ever imagined or can control, introducing the Sentinels, and a subplot involving Jean recovering from all her trauma and trying to cope and wanting to live again.

It is horrendously confusing, they should've picked one retcon and stuck with it. Basically, Phoenix is a split personality in the comics as well, she and Jean are one and reconciled when they're in the White Hot Room, which according to Xavier is the "nexus of all realities." So she's an immortal, all-powerful aspect of Jean that is her and not her incessantly. Maybe Warsong will smooth things out.

But she never refers to it as "we" or "I'. Even that scene where Wolverine wakes up in her arms up in the arctic north:

"You're just using me as bait to get to Scott"
"no, that's somebody else's plan"

So they may be one and the same, or a part of the same thing, but they're definitely different and separate. I thought what Jean meant had more to do with the fact that she and the Phoenix force are part of each other and can be together, but still are separate beings. Because they're obviously very different from each other. And one is still definitely insane. Or is she?