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No, but if you want to spend the rest of your days on SHH complaining about this movie, be my guest.

:)

I don't know about anybody else but SHH time for me is free time. It's not like I'm slacking off at work just to whine about X3. :)

I do agree that some times the level of negative energy around the X-boards reaches a critical level and I'm just in a bad mood over having to explain myself so many times and I have to just sit back and tack a break. The Fantastic Four and Ghost Rider boards feel like a day spa after spending a day around here :)

But again... both sides are resposible for this level of energy. You can clearly see that people who like the movie INSIST on their arguments, and people who don't like is also INSIST. I don't see any solution to this until Fox ****s or gets off the pot. Meaning, somebody starts making an X4 and permanently shuts us up... sbout X3 anyway. :D
 
I will say this about the X3 forums.

It's been a joy to be able to have discussions with those who are disappointed about the film. Granted, some who enjoy the film still come into this thread, but those who LOVE it have stayed away and haven't been trying to force their opinion on anyone.

A lot of new posters who were disappointed about the film came to the forum, expressed their opinions, and were viciously attacked by those who love the film and were insulted by a difference of opinion. It's been wonderful, calm, and peaceful in this thread lately and it's felt good to discuss different viewpoints.

Just because we dislike the film doesn't mean we agree on the changes that should've been made. Either way I like the way the forum is now and I cherish it very much. :up: :up:
 
Well, Magneto has always been a bit of a 'show off' - he didn't NEED to tear open the train to get inside, and he didn't NEED to throw two police cars in the air outside. He's always flaunted his power. And i think showing he has the power to crumble buildings (I'm guessing most modern buildings are steel-framed? some must be timber though) is going to leave people asking why he doesn't crumble buildings all over the place. These people have to have some limits.

He tore open the train to scare the **** out of anyone inside in case they tried to stand up to him IMO. And he lifted the cars to show the police was wasnt going to come along easily. IMO thats not showing off its doing what needs to be done to survive.

As for Storm, well she's never been shown at the power levels of the comic version. Creating tornadoes while flying the X-jet was the most powerful thing she has done, and that defied logic (working the jet controls at the same time as creating tornadoes) and was a significant power upgrade from X1. I guess they never made her into a hurricane-wielding weatherwitch in X3 because they wanted to show Magneto's powers and Phoenix's powers as being more terrifying and on a larger scale. For Storm fans, that was a shame, especially as Storm's flash flood sequence was cut.
Yes, I would have loved a diva showdown between Storm and Phoenix, I'd have liked to see Storm fire lightning at Magneto and him deflect it, I'd love to see some different power uses we hadn't seen before (except the cut flashflood scene WAS different) but we don't get everything.

Not sure why Storm create Tornadoes and fly the jet at the same time!? And i did think she had a significant power rise in 2 either, its just that in X1 she couldnt cut loose as she didnt know were the other X-Men were, she could have cut loose on Toad and inadvertently hurt Cyclops or Jean because she didnt know were they were thats why she didnt cut completely loose but just enough to finish Toad.

There are always logic gaps and conveniences in these movies.

True, but movies should be good enough to make us ignore them, IMO X3 wasnt.

For instance, in SR, there is no way Lex Luthor would get immediate access to the fortune of an elderly woman. He's the world's biggest criminal mind, there would be questions asked by the authorities over her will; and her family who were outside the room would sue for the fortune and it would be frozen during years of legal arguments (as in the Anna Nicole Smith case). Also, the power company who told Lois the source of the EM surge would be at the house investigating and discovering the crystal mass grown in the trainset. We have to jump over these gaps to enjoy the movie.

Dont see how it would be so hard for Lex to get the Vanderworth fortune when Gerturde's signature was on the will, but i'll admit i'm not the best on that type of law. As for the power company not investigating the black out, the black out lasted what, 10-20 seconds, i doubt they would do a huge investigation on that, but i'm not sure. Plus, they may just have seen were the BO originated from and thought no reason why it would start there and just could have been a freak occurance.

There's a strange logic gap in X2 that bugs me every time. 'Dark Cerebro' is running with Xavier connected to it, and Magneto manages to halt it (the novelisation says he sends waves of magnetic force to stop the machine...and you can see rippling from his hands as he holds them over the door). He stops Cerebro, realigns it to target humans and leaves. Then the X-Men arrive - Cyclops wants to blast the door but is told that because Charles is connected to Cerebro he cannot do so. Well, why can't a) Jean telekinetically switch off the machine just as Magneto magnetically switched it off; b) why can't Storm use the same electrical storm/interference she used to disrupt the spillway controls to switch off Cerebro; c) why don't they turn the power off using the generators outside Cerebro which power it, the same generators in the room where Cyclops fought Jean.

A) Jean wasnt as powerful as Magneto in X2 and before the end was apprehensive about her powers except when defending herself.

B) Storms electrical powers didnt open the spillway doors Mystique did from the control room, Storms electricity just jammed communication so more soldiers couldnt be called to the spillway door section and so the soldiers in that section would be distracted from shooting.

C) Those generators werent for Cerebro IMO, they controlled the water pressure, hence why the Damn eventually collapsed once they had been damaged.

Also the film does not explain why Nightcrawler decides to tag along right till the end, why Jean and Storm show no concern for their pupils at the mansion who were caught in the raid, and why the X-Men so easily agree to take along Magneto and Mystique (especially after the events of X1) and join forces. Now, there are answers to those questions if you think and fill in the gaps, but they were never given in the movie and they were fairly common criticisms of the movie at the time of its release. Magneto and Mystique joined the X-Men with the same casual ease with which Juggernaut and Multiple Man joined the Brotherhood - in each case one side was freed or rescued, in each case a favour was owed for that and a mutual cause was the implicit reason for working together.

Nightcrawler tagged along because he was a wanted fugitive and the X-Men showed immediate compassion for him, of course he will go with them. The accept except Magneto and Mystique because they saved their lives for one, knew how to find Xavier and Scott, AND knew of Strykers plans to destroy all mutants. They NEEDED him to come along, and its nothing like that crap scene in X3. How could Jean and Storm show worry for the missing children until they didnt know they were missing until halfway into the movie? Plus Storm did several times. Jean had other worries.

I agree that X3 was a different approach to the approach Singer gave us, but then that should not need to even be stated, as Singer was not in any way involved. You have to apply some understanding of what they did do in X3 rather than hating them for not being Bryan Singer, something which they will never be.

I dont mind a different approach X-Maniac, i just mind a poor one, IMO hiring Ratner, making the movie 99 mins long, killing Scott and i could go on forever were TERRIBLE decisions. Had they hired Zach Snyder, or the likes of him, and not someone with ADD, i'd have been confident. I mean Ratner has hired Chris Tucker more than any other actor, what does that say about him?
 
He tore open the train to scare the **** out of anyone inside in case they tried to stand up to him IMO. And he lifted the cars to show the police was wasnt going to come along easily. IMO thats not showing off its doing what needs to be done to survive.

What he did in those scenes was terrorism. What he did with that bridge and that prison convoy were terrorism also, a show of power, showing he was not a person to be trifled with. In the Planet X storyline the bridge scene is derived from, he rips apart an entire city in a show of power.


Not sure why Storm create Tornadoes and fly the jet at the same time!? And i did think she had a significant power rise in 2 either, its just that in X1 she couldnt cut loose as she didnt know were the other X-Men were, she could have cut loose on Toad and inadvertently hurt Cyclops or Jean because she didnt know were they were thats why she didnt cut completely loose but just enough to finish Toad.

I've answered the question of Storm flying the jet and creating weather phenomena in another post above where i replied to BMM. I'm not going to repeat it here. Many people believe the tornado scene showed a power upgrade from X1, it's open to interpretation.


True, but movies should be good enough to make us ignore them, IMO X3 wasnt.

It doesn't seem to work that way. I've seen you making all sorts of lengthy interpretations of parts of SR in the Superman forums - you love the movie, have watched it obsessively and so you 'get into it', you think about it deeply, you obsess over it, you read things into it, you end up almost worshipping it and defending its every syllable. If you don't like something and keep thinking about it, then you come up with new ways to justify why you didn't like it.

It's plain that X3 was made by different writers and a different director to the first two movies. It's pretty obvious that X1 and X2 had different writers, but the same director (and more studio interference now Fox realised they had a hit on their hands). Those things create differences that are not really the fault of the people themselves. Bryan Singer makes things moody, dark, angst-ridden, emo, serious. Brett Ratner is much more colourful, less dark, less intensely brooding, more 'full-on'. The directors' personalities come out in their work. Brett was never going to make a movie exactly in the way that Bryan would, he tried to follow the story along but it's still his own 'take' on it. A director will not be a slave to someone else's style. What Brett did have was the enthusiasm and energy to get it done on time. Of course he's not the obvious choice for following on a franchise of two movies made by Bryan Singer - is that his fault??? But Bryan isn't God either, let's get that perfectly clear. It's just a movie and he's just a person.



Dont see how it would be so hard for Lex to get the Vanderworth fortune when Gerturde's signature was on the will, but i'll admit i'm not the best on that type of law. As for the power company not investigating the black out, the black out lasted what, 10-20 seconds, i doubt they would do a huge investigation on that, but i'm not sure. Plus, they may just have seen were the BO originated from and thought no reason why it would start there and just could have been a freak occurance.

The power blackout hit the entire east coast - I would imagine the power company bosses would want to find out why it happened so they could fix any defects in the electricity supply (as they usually do whenever there is a blackout of any kind).

As for the will, which was signed behind closed doors and left nothing to Gertrude's blood relatives all standing outside, there would of course be repercussions and suspicions and probably legal action by the relatives. I mentioned Anna Nicole Smith, whose legal battle over a fortune left to her is well known - the papers have been full of it recently everywhere, as she recently died - surely you are aware of this?



A) Jean wasnt as powerful as Magneto in X2 and before the end was apprehensive about her powers except when defending herself.

B) Storms electrical powers didnt open the spillway doors Mystique did from the control room, Storms electricity just jammed communication so more soldiers couldnt be called to the spillway door section and so the soldiers in that section would be distracted from shooting.

C) Those generators werent for Cerebro IMO, they controlled the water pressure, hence why the Damn eventually collapsed once they had been damaged.

A) Jean's powers were fluctuating through the movie. It's still a possibility that was not addressed

B) Correct - Storm's electrical disturbance blocked communication. It's still a possibility that an electrical disturbance might have stopped Cerebro just as Magneto's own electromagnetic waves did.

C) Mystique told us that a large portion of the dam's energy was being diverted to Cerebro. Cerebro needed its power from somewhere (never mind that the version of Cerebro in the mansion had no power source the size of a dam to run from!!! Where did the mansion version get its energy??). The dam's power obviously was in generators - which would have been within the dam structure. The dam had a 'generator room' where Jean and Cyclops fought - therefore the generators were in that room. Therefore, stopping the generators would stop Cerebro. Not that I'm complaining about Storm's arctic icestorm, but there were other possibilities that were not mentioned, explored or ruled out. The only possibility mentioned was a stupid one - Cyclops blasting the doors off, whch once again (like the 'Fry him' line) had the effect of making him look stupid.


Nightcrawler tagged along because he was a wanted fugitive and the X-Men showed immediate compassion for him, of course he will go with them. The accept except Magneto and Mystique because they saved their lives for one, knew how to find Xavier and Scott, AND knew of Strykers plans to destroy all mutants. They NEEDED him to come along, and its nothing like that crap scene in X3. How could Jean and Storm show worry for the missing children until they didnt know they were missing until halfway into the movie? Plus Storm did several times. Jean had other worries.

Nightcrawler didn't have to go along with them. Neither did they have to take along Mystique or Magneto (though it's a good job they did). They had all the information from scanning Nightcrawler's mind. It was an alliance made fairly quickly with someone (Magneto) who had been far from friendly in the previous movie and who is never to be trusted. No one really showed any concern for the mansion or missing children, which was a shame.


I dont mind a different approach X-Maniac, i just mind a poor one, IMO hiring Ratner, making the movie 99 mins long, killing Scott and i could go on forever were TERRIBLE decisions. Had they hired Zach Snyder, or the likes of him, and not someone with ADD, i'd have been confident. I mean Ratner has hired Chris Tucker more than any other actor, what does that say about him?

I understand your disappointments, and share some of them. I never thought Singer was the perfect choice for X-Men or Superman, although he has a better (more careful, purposeful) film-making approach than Ratner. In my view, the ever-present producers like Shuler-Donner and Ralph Winter and Avi Arad, and Marvel's Stan Lee and Chris Claremont (who were both involved in a small way), should have all had greater influence on ensuring X3 was better.

I think if Singer had made X3 from the existing X3 script, he would not have included the mutant army or the two sides charging on Alcatraz, that's not his style (it would have been one-on-one battles of people sneaking around dark corridors as in the Statue of Liberty and Alkali Lake).

In a way it's perhaps a shame they didn't leave Phoenix out of X3 altogether and also write out Cyclops as leaving the team (as he did after Jean's death in the comics), and focus instead on the impact of the cure as it related to Angel and Beast and the others. Even Wolverine has an interesting role in the cure - if he were cured of his healing power, he'd die from the metal implantation that was done to him, as it's only his healing that keeps him alive. That way, Singer could have come in and done an X4 with Phoenix returning in it (and Cyclops coming back too). But we can't keep wishing for things that didn't happen.
 
I think many of you in this thread, and on this site, should read Comics Creators On X-Men, a book published in the UK by Titan. It's a series of interviews with various X-Men writers/editors/artists such as Chris Claremont, John Byrne, etc etc. Each person has a chapter, with the interview in a Q&A format.

In this book, you will see how the comics have been shaped by politics, personalities, profit, marketing, tough deadlines, clashes of opinion, decisions to leave, changes made to stop falling sales, changes made to cash in on booming sales, and so on. Plot twists, characters coming back from the dead, characters being killed, retcons, continuity flaws, cross-title projects - all on the basis of business decisions, not creativity. It's a revelation.

In the commercial world, it's about so much more than creativity. The X-Men comics are testament to that, as are the movies.
 
I think it´s really funny that the ones considered to be "the core" of the X-Men should be the so-called "leaders", Storm, Cyclops and Xavier. What´s that strange fascination people have with "leaders"?

Geez, lemme think. Because they f****n LEAD people???!!! :whatever:

You're quite a piece of work, you know that? :woot:

Chuck, Storm and Cyke led the team. Whether the provierbal balance tips is pretty much based on what they do. Constantly. As much as we might like subordinate heroes, they just don't have that power as often. Right place, right time and a fortunate roll of destiny's dice doesn't quite cut it when it comes to the big picture. Especially while, y'know, others have been in the hot seat for years. :D


Let me use another example. Based on your posts, I'll take a wild guess you weren't around (I myself only caught the late 80s repeats, but oh well...) , but what the hell.

Take G.I. f****n Joe. (And yeah, that's just because I recently started catching up on the DDP comics :D)

Snake-Eyes and Storm Shadow are no doubt two of the most popular characters. They're a HUGE part of the comicverse mythos. Overexposure incarnate. F****n ICONS. Like, totally.

Are they important to the G.I. Joe VS Cobra conflict overall?

F**k no. All they do is try to off each other, go angsty/vengeful, go off on their own and kill prop ninjas that have little to do with the big picture. For all the exposure and subplots they got, they never quite tipped the balance or even had the POWER TO DO SO.

Now take the Commander, Destro, Hawk and Duke. Like them or not, they're the people that turn the tide or tip the balance pretty much non-stop due to their achievements or failures. Whether as field commanders or decision-makers. The point is they have that power by default.

MMM... maybe I should've used the even simpler Optimus/Rodimus/Magnus VS Megatron/Galvatron/Shockwave analogy for old school Transformers.

Please tell me you at least get where I'm going with this. :whatever:



Loganbabe said:
Sorry, I don´t see how can you "love" comicverse Logan if that´s the only way you perceive him. Logan is so much more than "muscle" to the X-Men. He´s not some dog that jumps when Cyke says "Attack!"
If you love him because of that I´d much rather see you hating him instead.

He's still more muscle than anything else. :whatever:

And please note I rather think of Wolvie as an angry samourai with issues. Still, it qualifies more as muscle than anything else.

And just for the record, Cyke often has to tell Wolvie to stand down. :woot:
 
Exactly Darth. As I've said many times, Logan babe's knowledge of the comics and characters is lacking tremoudously. She constantly shows it by getting defensive when someone criticizes the overexposure of Logan.

What person gets upset about someone knocking a character? Look, I like Logan as a character too. But when is too much enough? He simply is just overexposed to the point that it's utterly ridiculous. Logan is not Spider-Man, Hulk, Captain America, Punisher, or even Ghost Rider. As a whole when it comes to the X-Men he is nothing more than a popular muscle helper in the comics.

Granted he is complex and has a unique story. However, if one wants to get technical about it, he's much more than a samurai with an attitude when it comes to his solo comics. That I understand and accept.

Her lack of knowledge is displayed when she says "What is with peoples fascination with leaders?" Um, well, Cyclops, Xavier, and Storm are important characters to the comics and removing them is asking for trouble. For example, if Legolas led Gondor or Rohan to war, would that have been received with open arms? No, it wouldn't have at all. Look at how popular Legolas when Fellowship of the Ring was released. Did Peter Jackson buckle under the pressure from swooning fangirls and kill off Frodo, Aragorn, Sam, and Bilbo? He created a balance that allowed all characters to have their shining moment and that's why the trilogy is so respected. The trilogy is respected obviously for great acting, great visuals, a great story, and a concept that will never be reduplicated for a very long time.

No one is saying that Logan is a horrible character. I like the character of Logan and find him to be one of the most complex and original characters. But I also realize and know that there's more to the X-Men than Logan.

Because of his overexposure characters like Cyclops, Storm, Rogue, Angel, Jean(somewhat), Mystique, Iceman, and Colossus suffered. Seriously, did anyone even watch the explanation that Ratner, Penn, and Kinberg gave over the deleted scene with Bobby standing up to Logan? Because Ashmore came off as too dominating and Logan needed to keep his presence. :whatever:

The "we're not kids anymore" dialogue should've been kept, as it added necessary emotion to the coming battle.

No one is hating on Logan. No one hates Hugh Jackman. Fans HATE how overexposed Logan became.

And to be quite honest, I really don't see the solo film doing that well. In order for a Logan story to be a Logan story it needs to be rated R. They need to explore his past with Sabretooth, Silver Fox, Maverick, Omega Red, and his creation during his Weapon X ages. I'm not saying it's impossible by any means, but his story is dark and violent, and it'll only be a watered down version of what it really is.

I won't see it because Fox screwed me over, another reason why I won't see it is that it won't be done right and the necessary research to make it great won't be incorporated into the film.
 
Amen to Darth and Lastsunrise.:woot: Nice correlations with Transformers and GI joe characters Darth. Although you forgot to include Ironhide with the Autobots character mentioned and Starscream with the decepticons.


I agree with the Lastsunrise about the shaky status of the Wolverine movie. I don't see how P-13 rating for this movie won't come across as cheesy. The Blade movies were pretty violent and Blade only used one sword to dismember people. Wolverine has 10 freaking blades!!!!
Furthermore, the character of Logan has already had too much overexposure. The right time to make a solo Wolverine movie would have been in between the release of X2 and X3. Many X-Men fans like myself are sick of the character and have no interest in seeing this film. I'm more excited for a Magneto film than a 4th movie about Wolverine and I'm not that interested in a Magneto movie.

Below was a poll taken by ign on the 25 most popular X-Men characters. It's was interesting to see some of the characters considered to be more popular than Logan.:woot:

http://comics.ign.com/articles/708/708826p5.html
 
Amen to Darth and Lastsunrise. :woot: Nice correlations with Transformers and GI joe characters Darth. Although you forgot to include Ironhide with the Autobots character mentioned and Starscream with the decepticons.

Well, I tried to keep it to a minimum. :cwink:

And I think Prowl rather than Ironhide actually was second to Prime in G1. I included Magnus/Shockwave rather than Prowl/Starscream because they basically were off-screen #1 field commanders back on Cybertron for, what, a couple million years? Figured it kinda beats being second-in-command on Earth. :cwink:

Theweepeople said:
I agree with the Lastsunrise about the shaky status of the Wolverine movie. I don't see how P-13 rating for this movie won't come across as cheesy.

As opposed to every Wolvie fight scene in the x-trilogy???

Swinging (with his six claws) at helpless opponents or getting beaten up by the tougher cookies. Basically the story of Logan's combat prowess in the x-flicks. :woot:

Theweepeople said:
Below was a poll taken by ign on the 25 most popular X-Men characters. It's was interesting to see some of the characters considered to be more popular than Logan.:woot:

http://comics.ign.com/articles/708/708826p5.html

Bump 'Ro up to #3, take Kitty down a few notches and most of it makes sense, really. Oh, and I'm not quite sure it was so much a bona fide poll as some of the IGN's crew picks.

And remember they said important, not popular. :cwink:
 
What person gets upset about someone knocking a character? Look, I like Logan as a character too. But when is too much enough? He simply is just overexposed to the point that it's utterly ridiculous. Logan is not Spider-Man, Hulk, Captain America, Punisher, or even Ghost Rider. As a whole when it comes to the X-Men he is nothing more than a popular muscle helper in the comics.

*hugs LS*

LastSunrise1981 said:
Granted he is complex and has a unique story. However, if one wants to get technical about it, he's much more than a samurai with an attitude when it comes to his solo comics. That I understand and accept.

I was going for brevity, actually. :D

And while I know he's more than that, I still think 'angry samourai' does justice to the character's core. Can't exactly fit decades into a few key words. ;)

LastSunrise1981 said:
And to be quite honest, I really don't see the solo film doing that well. In order for a Logan story to be a Logan story it needs to be rated R. They need to explore his past with Sabretooth, Silver Fox, Maverick, Omega Red, and his creation during his Weapon X ages. I'm not saying it's impossible by any means, but his story is dark and violent, and it'll only be a watered down version of what it really is.

Refer to AvP for more intel on Fox' treatment of potentially insanely violent flicks. :D
 
Um.....I believe he has six (6) blades, not 10.


Oops. Thanks for correcting me.:yay:

Even if those 'rules' themselves defy science and logic????? Sounds a bit crazy to me. This then becomes your personal preference and not anything scientifically based.


I'm sure I've already explained my reasoning to you before but, as usual I will have to break it down to you again. I have no problem with scifi movies that make up scientific theories and defy real life science principals. However, these fictional and nonfictional scientific theories should be consistently followed or broken within the movie universe of the story that is being told. One movie that violated these rules many years ago was Superman 3. It is the only Superman movie where exposure to green Kryptonite had no fatal impact on the man of steel.:huh: That movie completely contradicted the science of that universe and there was no rational explanation for why Superman was not hurt and killed by his exposure. It's no coincidence that many superman fans including Bryan Singer act as if that film never happened.

It was never 'established' as a 'rule', it's just always been shown that way, for dramatic impact.

I think you completely missed my point. Of course sound was added for dramatic impact but, it was still an unspoken rule that the average person can understand. Lucas even addressed this rule in one of his interviews 10 to 12 years ago. I have no problem with sound being heard in those space battles because it was consistently heard!!!

Even though it's rubbish in scientific terms. So you can accept scientific crap if it's always there - how then did the scientific 'rules' change in X3??? How odd that crap is okay if consistent, in your strange world.

I already addressed most of this in the above posts but, I'm amazed that you still don't know what I and many other haters thought was inconsistent in X3. In scientific terms Wolverine's power ugrade at the end was absurd. There is no rational explanation for how he was able to heal at the same rate that chunks of flesh were being ripped off.

I'm not just talking about scientific inconsistensies that bothered me. I had a problem with plot elements introduced in X3 that were detrimental to what happened in the previous movies:

The deaths of Xavier and Cyclops makes Jean's sacrifice at the end of X2 trivial.

The realization of Xavier being a manipulative bastard contradicts all of his morals and principals in the previous two films.

Magneto in X3 lacked the vision and tactics utilized by the one in X1 and X2. X3's Magneto completely destroys all the respect I had for the character.


I mean that the time travel is always convenient and often not to the place/person that would be the most direct target. Not to mention that the Novikov self-consistency principle rules out most of this 'time-travelling to alter events' stuff :oldrazz:

I already addressed this. I have no problem with time travel that is conveniently consistent.




I'm not just talking about science, i'm talking about logic and the application of common-sense. The novelisation has nothing to do with it. It's quite improbable that the world's greatest criminal mind (Lex Luthor) would get his hands on the Vanderworth fortune without challenge. Of course, some newspaper headlines could have solved that - that might have given purpose to Clark's time at the farm if we saw him see headlines stating 'Lex Luthor freed - Superman fails to turn up for appeal', 'Luthor inherits billions - family fail in legal bid to claim fortune.' Simple, but they never did it, thus leaving a hole. You only have to be aware of the Anna Nicole Smith case to see how improbable the movie scenario is - the family would sue, the assets would be frozen for years during court battles, it's highly unlikely Lex would get the money given that he's a known criminal mastermind.

Stanger things have happened in this world then a criminal mind inheriting a fortune. Darth already gave an explanation for how it could happen. To prevent the family from freezing the assets all Lex needs to do is call up the ACLU. That organization will fight for anyone. They have defended terrorists, racists, and pedophiles(NAMBLA North American Man Boy Love Association):cmad: I doubt they would have a moral problem representing an evil criminal mind in a court of law. That family in Superman Returns would have needed the best damn lawyers in the nation to keep that money away from Lex.




Who cares if James Bond is sci-fi or not. That's a silly 'red herrring'. James Bond contains many elements of sci-fi with the doomsday machines and gadgets like invisible cars etc. ?.

Yes that is true but, Bond is still just an action hero. Many of those sci-fi elements came later in the series. The books Casino Royal, Dr. No, From Russia with Love, Goldfinger, and Thunderball had very few of the elements you mentioned above.

We're talking logic here. And the logic of what I described previously. I'm also bemused that your mindset alters when watching action movies. So, as soon as something is obviously 'sci-fi. a part of your brain awakens and begins critical analysis of whether what you see is consistent with any previous movies in the franchise, but if anything isn't obviously 'sci-fi' (but may contain sci-fi material) that part of your mind shuts down and you go into popcorn mode?.

My mind is always working differently when I watch different movies.:cwink: When I watch comedies I expect to laugh. When I watch horrors my expectations are completely lowered. When I watch action films I simply expect to get an adrenaline rush from the action sequences. When I watch dramas I expect to be touched emotionally. When I watch Sci-fi movies I expect to get an adrenaline rush from the action sequences but, I also expect to see science being represented in a way that is creative, unique, interesting, and sometimes fictional.

What this says is that this is all about you and your perceptions and viewing adjustments, not about the movies. And I don't like everything in X3 - but it certainly isn't your personalised 'scientific rules' of consistency that are its problem.

All of this shows your inability to understand the legitimate reasons I and many other X3 haters have for hating this film.
 
C) Mystique told us that a large portion of the dam's energy was being diverted to Cerebro. Cerebro needed its power from somewhere (never mind that the version of Cerebro in the mansion had no power source the size of a dam to run from!!! Where did the mansion version get its energy??). The dam's power obviously was in generators - which would have been within the dam structure. The dam had a 'generator room' where Jean and Cyclops fought - therefore the generators were in that room. Therefore, stopping the generators would stop Cerebro. Not that I'm complaining about Storm's arctic icestorm, but there were other possibilities that were not mentioned, explored or ruled out. The only possibility mentioned was a stupid one - Cyclops blasting the doors off, whch once again (like the 'Fry him' line) had the effect of making him look stupid.

When you ask nitpicky questions like this I wonder why you constantly accuse me of being nitpicky. First, I don't understand why you questioned the reason the X-Men decided not to turn the machine off. Jean stated that the professor and everyone he was connected to could be killed. It didn't happen when Magneto stopped the machine but, it was still a possibility.

Secondly, how do you know all the generators in that room where Jean and Scott fought were all destroyed. Remember that mystique said a large portion of the dam's energy was being used for cerebro but, not all.

Finally, how do you know that was the only room of generators. There could have been another room or rooms.



Nightcrawler didn't have to go along with them.

Yes, but the X-Men could use his help and Nightcrawler knew he would be accepted at the X-Mansion. This is nitpicky.:oldrazz:

Neither did they have to take along Mystique or Magneto (though it's a good job they did).

Did the X-Men have anything else to loose at this point? They already lost the X-Mansion, didn't know where Cyclops/Xavier were, and we are unaware whether they knew what happened to the X-kids. Working with Magneto and Mystique made a lot of sense to me. Nitpicky:oldrazz:

They had all the information from scanning Nightcrawler's mind.)

I guess you didn't realize this would contradict your first nitpick before you posted it.

It was an alliance made fairly quickly with someone (Magneto) who had been far from friendly in the previous movie and who is never to be trusted.

Already addressed.

No one really showed any concern for the mansion or missing children, which was a shame.

Like I said before we have no idea whether any of the X-Men had the means to contact the X-kids. Did you think the movie really need a scene where Logan, Storm, and Jean all agreed that the X-kids could or could not be contacted? Nitpicky.:oldrazz:
 
^ Agreed. But what's done is done and we can't change it, so why do some people still feel the need to ***** about the movie even today?

Well Fox spent 3 years screwing up this film so I think they deserve 3 years of criticism.

2003-2004 Fox screws around with Bryan Singer after the release of X2 for a whole year.

2004-2005 Fox wastes a whole year trying to find the write director for X3 and after finding the wrong director(Matthew Vaughn) they are forced to find an even worse director(Brett Ratner) a few weeks before filming.

2005-2006 Fox spends a whole year lying to fans about what would be in X3.
 
X-Maniac loves to refer to my complaint of the Juggernaut throwing Wolverine through the ceiling scene as nitpicky but, I have legitimate reasons for hating it. The main reason I hate it is because it has horrible choreography. That scene made me feel like I was watching a cartoon where science and logic are typically ignored. Whenever a cartoon or comic makes the transition to a theatrical release I expect to see something that at the very least appears to be realistic looking. It is the job of everyone involved with a picture(Specifically the director, producer, CGI designers, and scene choreographers) to make characters and action sequences believable. Everyone involved with producing those fight sequences at Jean's house failed to get me to believe that what I saw was more than mindless action.
 
Geez, lemme think. Because they f****n LEAD people???!!! :whatever:
Oh really, genius? :whatever:
And what´s with all the ***? You can´t express yourself any other way?
Yeah, leaders lead people. Thanks for being so nice and clarifying that to me. But I wasn´t talking about the definition of leaders. What I said is that there are other ways people have of leaving a mark in the world, of being important and loved and admired, of changing something, of being real heroes, of meaning something to other people - and not only by being leaders.
I don´t like leaders in general. I don´t like to be led. I admire people who follow their own hearts and minds, not someone else´s.
That is, if they follow their hearts and minds to try and change the world for the best, of course.
Just to use an example, people like Anne Frank means to me a lot more than any of the so-called leaders, or generals, or whatever decided the destiny of millions in World War 2. Like a zillion times more.
The big, powerful, proud leaders were important in WW2? Of course they were. Maybe they´re important to lots of people, but not to me. Anne Frank left a mark in the conscience of the world, and she was just a girl hiding in an attic.

Please tell me you at least get where I'm going with this. :whatever:
The thing is, I couldn´t care less about GI. Joe and Transformers. Not one little bit.
I´m much more interested in other types of comics. European, alternative, Neil Gaiman, Alan Moore, so thank you very much.
X-Men is the only super-hero based comics I´ve ever read, apart from some Batman Graphic Novels. I love the concept. And I find Wolverine to be one of the most interesting and intriguing characters ever. Not only as a comic character, but as a fictional character per se. What I like about him is that he can fit into a team or he can be on his own and still be great one way or the other. A character like Scott seems to function only when he is part of a team, and he´s nowhere near as fascinating to me.

He's still more muscle than anything else. :whatever:

And please note I rather think of Wolvie as an angry samourai with issues. Still, it qualifies more as muscle than anything else.
In your opinion, and maybe in the opinion of some lesser writers. :whatever: Thankfully some other writers recognized the full potential of the character. Read "Wolverine - Netsuke" if you want a good example of that.
 
Neither did I until Wolverine showed up in the New Avengers.
Logan is out of all teams, except Astonishing. And in Astonishing, Whedon seems much more interested in Cyke, Emma and Kitty than him. So why all this "overexposure" talking continues when it comes to comics?
Yes, he´s on New Avengers. So what? I love the character, and I don´t read N.A. I´m not really interested in the way he´s being written there.
Yes, he has two solo books. No one is forced to buy them, they´re for the fans.

the difference between those three franchises is that the people making Spiderman, batman and Superman know where the real money is. The long time fans of the comic books. The ones who poured their time and their money and their emotions in these franchises. They are the ones who are gonna see the movie 20 times in the theater, they are the ones who are gonna buy the dvd's and the merchandise and in pour their allowances and such into the industry.
Who says there aren´t complaints from Spidey, Batman and Superman fans? Many hated how the characters and stories were handled in some movies. On the other side, many X-Men fans loved the movies and how the characters were portrayed. So things are not as defined - fans from the other franchises were respected, X-Men fans not - as you say.

How are we being hypocritical? We know that Wolverine is bankable, we just resent the fact the story quality has to suffer because of it, more than it already has to suffer as part of the transition to the silver screen.
My main complaint is that people like to blame Wolverine for everything that was wrong in X3. I like the movie, altough I recognize there were problems. But the problems weren´t only Wolverine-related, or had only to do with his so-called "overexposure".
 
Interesting. Magneto's army does qualify though as one of these 'mass armies of untrained and low-quality soldiers.' The mutants gathered by Magneto were NOT trained soldiers.

It's possible the idea was to create a visual that is similar to the X-Men and Brotherhood charging at each other at the start of the 90s cartoon, and similar to the charging armies in Narnia and LoTR. There is something very visual about seeing that kind of battle.

This was always going to be this kind of charging battle. You can see that on the trailer when the X-Men are stood in a line.

The "Dark Pheonix" saga have probably some of the most varied and best visual battle scenes in the X-men history.
Some of the classical battle/fight scenes in the Phoenix story include X-men vs the Phoenix, X-men ambush against the Hellfire Club, Cyclops vs Mastermind & the Phoenix in Mysterio's world, Prof X vs the Phoenix in astral plane (not tht dumb staring competition we got in X3) and of coz the super-powered epic battle between the X-men & the Phoenix & the Shi'ar Empire! And if we were included the earlier Phoenix stories, all the intergalactic space battles as well would have matched any we had seen in Star Wars.
How does anything in X3 match the emotion and epicness of any of the battle scenes in LOTR...you know something is seriously wrong when the best visual Ratner could think of in a movie abt the Dark Pheonix was Mag moving a bridge. How disappointing could it possibly have been?

Oh god, thinking abt all these make me really sad - hopeful somebody like Peter Jackson will redo the Phoenix saga and we can all forget abt Ratner's Mini-orc rush and Mag's flaming projectile cars! Now that you mentioned it these tactics do indeed seem to be a rip-off from the LOTR but in an embarrassing miniature version.
 
Logan is out of all teams, except Astonishing. And in Astonishing, Whedon seems much more interested in Cyke, Emma and Kitty than him. So why all this "overexposure" talking continues when it comes to comics?
Yes, he´s on New Avengers. So what? I love the character, and I don´t read N.A. I´m not really interested in the way he´s being written there.
Yes, he has two solo books. No one is forced to buy them, they´re for the fans.

Well he isn't as overexposed in the comic-books as he used to be. Why? Because we complained. :D But he's still getting his own animated series from what I hear, apart from a movie franchise. God... what is there left to tell about Wolverine that hasn't already been told through every single medium!? Why, why, why always Wolverine!?

I'm a Gambit fan, and if the situation was different, if it was Gambit showing up in 14 books a month, be the star of the movie, get his own movie franchise. get his own animated series sure I'd be extatic, but at least I'd have the decency to admit it isn't fair to the other characters. :)



My main complaint is that people like to blame Wolverine for everything that was wrong in X3. I like the movie, altough I recognize there were problems. But the problems weren´t only Wolverine-related, or had only to do with his so-called "overexposure".

Wolverine is a cash-cow. Plain and simple. However, I have stated this time and time again. There's not just ONE thing that went wrong with X3. It was LOTS of things, and some of them unfortunately, there was not much you could do about it. Singer left the franchise, although it could be argued that he should've been signed on imediately after finishing X2, which hadn't happened. James Marsden went with him, and didn't have time for the movie, although maybe if he had gotten a little more screen time in the previous 2 MAYBE he wouldn't have been so quick to leave.
The writers didn't know how the movie was going to look in the end. They weren't on set every day like a writer team SHOULD be IMO. Ratner took all kinds of liberties with the material, which in my opinion, in the end hurt the quality of the story. And lots and lots of other things that have already been discussed here.

X3 in short was a disaster, but to be fair Wolverine was the main cash-cow from day one, but at least when Cyclops was around you had somebody to balance him out. When Cyclops was no more, Wolverine had to take over his role and hog even MORE screen time. :)

:ninja: :hyper:
 
I think that was the thing that pissed me off the most. Do they really think X3 would have made less money if it had been Cyclops fighting to save Jean as it should have been? Of course not! People rushed to see X3 because they thought it would tell the story of Dark Phoenix.
 
*hugs LS*



I was going for brevity, actually. :D

And while I know he's more than that, I still think 'angry samourai' does justice to the character's core. Can't exactly fit decades into a few key words. ;)



Refer to AvP for more intel on Fox' treatment of potentially insanely violent flicks. :D

Did you notice that Logan babe didn't reply to my post of me providing comic book history, the importance of characters, and the concept about the X-Men in general? She avoided it like the plague and knew she was exposed.

She has the nerve to ask "Where is the overexposure of Logan?" Well, let's see, he's getting his own movie, getting his own cartoon, was almost made the main character/leader in the Astonishing series until fans started yelling at Whedon for considering the possibility of killing off Cyclops, and of course he was overexposed in X3. He is an overexposed character at this point and anything that's overexposed gets old.
 
The "Dark Pheonix" saga have probably some of the most varied and best visual battle scenes in the X-men history.
Some of the classical battle/fight scenes in the Phoenix story include X-men vs the Phoenix, X-men ambush against the Hellfire Club, Cyclops vs Mastermind & the Phoenix in Mysterio's world, Prof X vs the Phoenix in astral plane (not tht dumb staring competition we got in X3) and of coz the super-powered epic battle between the X-men & the Phoenix & the Shi'ar Empire! And if we were included the earlier Phoenix stories, all the intergalactic space battles as well would have matched any we had seen in Star Wars.
How does anything in X3 match the emotion and epicness of any of the battle scenes in LOTR...you know something is seriously wrong when the best visual Ratner could think of in a movie abt the Dark Pheonix was Mag moving a bridge. How disappointing could it possibly have been?

Oh god, thinking abt all these make me really sad - hopeful somebody like Peter Jackson will redo the Phoenix saga and we can all forget abt Ratner's Mini-orc rush and Mag's flaming projectile cars! Now that you mentioned it these tactics do indeed seem to be a rip-off from the LOTR but in an embarrassing miniature version.

You know very well that it would be unrealistic and utterly inconsistent to see the astral plane, Shi'ar or intergalactic space battles in X3. Stop being ridiculous. It was enough of a leap to see the holographic Danger Room and the Sentinel head.

Furthermore the decision to focus on Magneto and the bridge was not made by Ratner but by Fox. Ratner did decide to drop the Washington battle, but the bridge scene was already in place as an FX high point.

Would I have liked the Washington battle? Possibly. Would I have had liked a different Phoenix with firebird effects and more development during the final scenes when she seems to stand around? Definitely. But creative desires aren't the only factor. Some of the Dark Phoenix saga is difficult to bring to the X-movies - consuming a sun, flying through galaxies, fighting on the moon, turning a tree into gold.... The movie just needed to be longer to give more breathing space and detail to the elements it contained.
 
^ I completley disagree.

I think the Astral plane would of fit very well into the "realism" of this Science fiction world. :D

Besides no one complained abou how unrealistic the Danger Room or Sentinels were.

Edit- Hell the Astral plane was almost practically in the movie, with all the Telepathy going on and all.

It can be argued Xavier went into it when traveling from one body to the other.
 
I think that was the thing that pissed me off the most. Do they really think X3 would have made less money if it had been Cyclops fighting to save Jean as it should have been? Of course not! People rushed to see X3 because they thought it would tell the story of Dark Phoenix.

And boy were they in for a surprise. :)
 
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