In The Multiverse Of Madness Spoiler Discussion Thread

[Stark Bauer]

I thought the movie was alright. Kinda surprised they didn't bring in Paul Bettany in this movie. Him being an additional voice of reason, in an alternate universe, or confirmation that Wanda's character had been taken over by the Darkhold would have gave the movie more umph for Wanda.

you nailed it. Vision would have been the voice of reason. Without him Wanda is a sociopathic psychopath

 

[Limonade]

I felt in some ways it didn't move Strange's world any closer to a resolution or progress much. Like Mordo in the MCU, is out there taking powers away... and we only saw the Mordo in a different universe. Mordo would have done something to end all magic as we know it, had he known Wanda's motive.

I had much more story issues with this MCU movie than I have with others that recently came out. It was still an enjoyable experience.

 

[Stark Bauer]

It does not cheapen them
Wanda had the Dark Hold and was hellbent on getting what she wanted, Reed Richards was the only Illuminati that mattered for future MCU movies. They have Danvers as CM not her friend, Peggy was fan service nothing more was she even a super soldier? They already did Inhumans show that flopped so they won't get a movie likely the only Black Bolt appearance, Xavier is not a fighter.

Wanda was strong enough to hang with Thanos but so was Thor in IWs so he can be OP. Dr.Strange can now be OP because he used the book and a sorcerer.

she basically killed that universe's version of The Avengers...yes it does cheapen them. Basically if you have an iota of magic/sorcery/supernatural ability such as Loki, you are probably going to see the same result. The Illuminati was laughably weak. Wanda made them look worse than putty patrollers. She is way too OP. It's ridiculous. If this movie were a video game, Wanda is Super Mario and the Illuminati were goombas.She stomped the crap out of them.

 

[Herolee10]

It does not cheapen them
Wanda had the Dark Hold and was hellbent on getting what she wanted, Reed Richards was the only Illuminati that mattered for future MCU movies. They have Danvers as CM not her friend, Peggy was fan service nothing more was she even a super soldier? They already did Inhumans show that flopped so they won't get a movie likely the only Black Bolt appearance, Xavier is not a fighter.

Wanda was strong enough to hang with Thanos but so was Thor in IWs so he can be OP. Dr.Strange can now be OP because he used the book and a sorcerer.

The fact that Wanda can kill Maria so easily implies that she could do the same to Carol Danvers. Wanda being able to kill off the likes of Professor X (Mentally), Mr. Fantastic, Black Bolt, and Captain Marvel without really trying easily makes her a bigger threat than any Marvel villain that I know of.

Thor got lucky in IW and Dr. Strange has yet to overpower any character in the MCU.

 

[Ninjablade]

Wasn't a fan of the movie overall, but one thing that I did greatly enjoy was the creativity with both the central characters' powers. Probably the first time either of them truly felt "magical" so to speak. A lot of really cool and inventive stuff.

Wanda in the mirror dimension was not only a standout moment, but probably my favorite scene of the film. I just love the contrast as to how Strange and the other sorcerers have manipulated it vs how Wanda did. Her using reflections to escape was very neat. Not to mention how striking of a visual it was when she shattered everything around her.

 

[Limonade]

she basically killed that universe's version of The Avengers...yes it does cheapen them. Basically if you have an iota of magic/sorcery/supernatural ability such as Loki, you are probably going to see the same result. The Illuminati was laughably weak. Wanda made them look worse than putty patrollers. She is way too OP. It's ridiculous,

She's OP even for DC, if I remember the Marvel/DC crossover correctly. What If's Zombie Scarlett Witch was absolutely terrifying in terms of raw power.

 

[Hannibal75]

This is why we can't have nice things. Feige does some fan service with the Illuminati, casts perennial fan favorite Krasinski as Reed, brings back Stewart as Xavier, and people still find some reason to b**ch and whine.

 

[imbruglia]

well some people have standard which is good and what marvel needs.

anyway, I just think it's funny wanda was that strong and yet.. she didn't catch them in seconds but doing all that dialogue or typical "waiting" to give time for main character.
I guess this is one of logic fail with whole magic power thing.
you see them doing things with such ease or no big movement then later you see them struggle to do that basic things or don't even use that power anymore, so they can struggle for story.

 

[Batmannerism]

well some people have standard which is good and what marvel needs.

anyway, I just think it's funny wanda was that strong and yet.. she didn't catch them in seconds but doing all that dialogue or typical "waiting" to give time for main character.
I guess this is one of logic fail with whole magic power thing.
you see them doing things with such ease or no big movement then later you see them struggle to do that basic things or don't even use that power anymore, so they can struggle for story.

When an antagonist is so powerful, and can basically do anything, and the writing is good, the hero has to come up with something special to defeat them- often this involves heroic sacrifice.
E.g. the first Dr Strange movie.

When the same conditions exist, but the writing is garbage the antagonist just....beats themself, with the hero not doing anything clever or heroic. Well that's the kind of bull**** this movie is selling.


For some reason Marvel really want us to care about Wanda, and keep telling us she's really just a grieving mother ( that line about her in Westfield where Strange says she "put that right" HOW ? She turned those people into puppets for weeks).

Unfortunately, because they don't have any writers of talent, what they SHOW us is that Wanda has become an almost irredeemably selfish and sadistic mass murderer.

Now if they could actually let Wanda acknowledge that she's a villain and go for it, she might be an interesting character.

 

[Daywalker89]

This film is creating some division which im surprised about. This ain't your typical play for play Marvel film, they actually took risks especially in the 2nd/3rd act . As far as im concerned this film is a catalyst for the secret wars, theres alot of theories and speculation flying about but from what ive heard some guys are seriously underestimating the impact this film will have in the grand scheme of things. I thought phase 4 was going to be a trundling with a wimper of generic predictable films. Now im not so sure.

Another thing is the general reception to these films. The MCU is so ingrained into modern culture that even women on dating apps say swipe left if you're not a Marvel fan. The amount of cheers, laughs and horrified sighs you hear i only with Marvel films. No other franchise can touch it imo. Its quite impressive when you think about it. Im mainly into low level marvel characters like Punisher and Daredevil but goddamn they really have Hollywood by the balls. May it continue.

P.S To the parents in these parts please be mindful of your kids when seing this. There's some jump scares and scary imagery in this film. Even Wanda gave me the creeps at some points. Sam Raimi didn't hold back on his horror elements and i saw a few references to his early work

 

[def28]

When an antagonist is so powerful, and can basically do anything, and the writing is good, the hero has to come up with something special to defeat them- often this involves heroic sacrifice.
E.g. the first Dr Strange movie.

When the same conditions exist, but the writing is garbage the antagonist just....beats themself, with the hero not doing anything clever or heroic. Well that's the kind of bull**** this movie is selling.


For some reason Marvel really want us to care about Wanda, and keep telling us she's really just a grieving mother ( that line about her in Westfield where Strange says she "put that right" HOW ? She turned those people into puppets for weeks).

Unfortunately, because they don't have any writers of talent, what they SHOW us is that Wanda has become an almost irredeemably selfish and sadistic mass murderer.

Now if they could actually let Wanda acknowledge that she's a villain and go for it, she might be an interesting character.

I saw the film as essentially about letting go of that fear of losing loved ones. Strange with Christine, America Chavez with her Mothers and Wanda with her children. Is the moral journey laid out the best? No. But it's there thematically and relies on the characters learning to over come these fears in order to use this and beat Wanda. She didn't defeat herself. They learned to let go of that fear, move on and then showed her how.


I agree with the Westbrook line. Didin't work.

 

[Weather Witch]

I saw the film was essentially about letting go of that fear of losing loved ones.

I think maybe a part of the problem is that Wanda already spend an entire TV-show learning those lessons. She lets go of Vision and her kids in WandaVision. Only to then ignore Vision completely and tries to kill Chavez to get her kids back. The main reason that the movie provides for this is pretty much "Darkhold".

 

[def28]

I think maybe a part of the problem is that Wanda already spend an entire TV-show learning those lessons. She lets go of Vision and her kids in WandaVision. Only to then ignore Vision completely, tries to kill Chavez, and wants to get her kids back. The main reason that the movie provides for this is pretty much "Darkhold".

Yeah, there's overlap of themes going on. No doubt the show and film were always going to connect but I think the pandemic really messed things up from being a stronger cohesive. This film was rewritten very fast, changed a few times and was originally very close to Wandavision.

I think both suffered. I enjoyed this film more so then the last ep of WandaVision. But I enjoyed the series up until a point. They both can't quite get a few things right.

I think we needed a few more scenes to help bridge these two.

 

[Bayne]

I think maybe a part of the problem is that Wanda already spend an entire TV-show learning those lessons. She lets go of Vision and her kids in WandaVision. Only to then ignore Vision completely and tries to kill Chavez to get her kids back. The main reason that the movie provides for this is pretty much "Darkhold".

I don't think that's true. There's nothing unafraid of losing her loved ones about the final episode of WandaVision. The lesson she learns there is that that life wasn't real and that her clinging to it was hurting innocent people. That's why she let it go. (She even thinks about changing the spell so it doesn't hurt people, but Agatha says a spell can't be changed once it has been cast.)

This story is about her trying to get something that *is* real and along the way being corrupted by the influence of the darkhold. You can even see her becoming more corrupted over the course of the film.

She starts out sending constructs after America instead of doing it herself. She claims that's 'mercy' and 'being reasonable' which is obvious non-sense, but what it actually does achieve is keeping her from having to personally decide who is and isn't an obstacle to her goal meaning any deaths are out of sight, out of mind. The second she comes face to face with actual people, rather than sending monsters to do her dirty work, she tries to bargain instead of fighting them. She also starts out flat-out denying that America is a person, calling her some kind of magical creature instead. But the more her impersonal machinations were thwarted the more the book was able to twist her anger about that into caring less and less until she's actively slaughtering everything that gets in her way without warning and openly admitting that killing America is killing a child, but still being ok with that because 'a mother takes care of her children'.

That is the story here. And I can see how it might be easier to follow or more convincing to some if we had seen more of her transition from wanting a guilt-free way to have her children after all to being willing to do anything for it no matter how terrible. For instance, she probably did originally intend to find a peaceful way to cross universes. The justification that she needs the power for herself in case something happens is a blatantly obvious after the fact rationalization for changing her mind on that. But the story is there, as is, and it really is not the same story as WandaVision.

 

[Gothamsknight]

Wanda was a savage in this!
"Do they have a mother?"
"Yes"
"Then they'll have someone to raise them""

 

[Closerframe]

There seems to be this confusing logic that if you don’t like something Marvel has done, you’re either a whiny fan or you don’t understand the long game. Despite having some cool moments, the movie just doesn’t have good pacing and dialogue, not to mention again, spotty CG where characters are obviously just in front of a green screen or on a lot.

My other issues include:

• Wong is the Sorcerer Supreme and yet, he told Wanda where to find the original Darkhold the moment a few of his students are threatened despite assuming they were already dead
• Wanda’s “redemption” by destroying all Darkholds in every universe seemed like a convenient way for Marvel to potentially wrap up her story but also keep her as an option given the multiverse of other Wandas who will likely be good or bad
• America Chavez wasn’t properly utilized and was a macguffin that had no sense of real agency or character growth until it was hammed in at the very end that she suddenly knows how to use her powers
• The Illuminati are supposed to be the most brilliant minds of the multiverse and what we saw were 6 idiots who not only underplayed the threat of Wanda, they made this Mordo stay behind just so Strange could escape. This, like Quicksilver in WandaVision or the Mandarin in Iron Man 3, was used as a marketing ploy instead of an opportunity to make the dynamics more interesting
• The first post credit scene

 

[Weather Witch]

I don't think that's true. There's nothing unafraid of losing her loved ones about the final episode of WandaVision. The lesson she learns there is that that life wasn't real and that her clinging to it was hurting innocent people. That's why she let it go. (She even thinks about changing the spell so it doesn't hurt people, but Agatha says a spell can't be changed once it has been cast.)

I do think we have very a very different read of WandaVision, which I find very interesting.

She created the entire town because she lost Vision and all the other people in her life. It's her being scarred by everyone she has lost and taking control to never lose someone again. Her fantasy land without loss and pain. Rewatching the show, it seems she knew it wasn't real for the vast majority of it. The lesson, as I see it, was about letting go. Letting go of control of the town. Letting Vision and her kids go, and embracing that loss. That also means embracing the fact that these kids are not real and that her loved ones did die.

Which, honestly, is where she ends up again in Multiverse of Madness. The kids are from another reality this time, but from an emotional perspective that's really no different from the ones that she 'created' herself. She is once again holding on to a relationship that isn't real, rather than facing loss. She wants to take control again by taking Chavez's powers. And again, she has to embrace that it's not real because these kids already have a mother.

This story is about her trying to get something that *is* real and along the way being corrupted by the influence of the darkhold. You can even see her becoming more corrupted over the course of the film.

Honestly, it feels like most of that corruption happened off-screen before the movie. Though she does push it a bit further throughout the movie.

That is the story here. And I can see how it might be easier to follow or more convincing to some if we had seen more of her transition from wanting a guilt-free way to have her children after all to being willing to do anything for it no matter how terrible. For instance, she probably did originally intend to find a peaceful way to cross universes.

Showing that would've probably helped a lot, yeah. I've seen people compare this to what happened with Daenerys. We get a lot of setting the stage and foreshadowing, then we skip a few steps.

 

[Iceman]

There seems to be this confusing logic that if you don’t like something Marvel has done, you’re either a whiny fan or you don’t understand the long game. Despite having some cool moments, the movie just doesn’t have good pacing and dialogue, not to mention again, spotty CG where characters are obviously just in front of a green screen or on a lot.

My other issues include:

• Wong is the Sorcerer Supreme and yet, he told Wanda where to find the original Darkhold the moment a few of his students are threatened despite assuming they were already dead
• Wanda’s “redemption” by destroying all Darkholds in every universe seemed like a convenient way for Marvel to potentially wrap up her story but also keep her as an option given the multiverse of other Wandas who will likely be good or bad
• America Chavez wasn’t properly utilized and was a macguffin that had no sense of real agency or character growth until it was hammed in at the very end that she suddenly knows how to use her powers
• The Illuminati are supposed to be the most brilliant minds of the multiverse and what we saw were 6 idiots who not only underplayed the threat of Wanda, they made this Mordo stay behind just so Strange could escape. This, like Quicksilver in WandaVision or the Mandarin in Iron Man 3, was used as a marketing ploy instead of an opportunity to make the dynamics more interesting
• The first post credit scene

The Illuminati - 6 Idiots.

That needs to be their Wikipedia entry, nothing more needs to be said.

 

[Primal Slayer]

What Marvel has done across 4 films/tv series with Wanda is what i expected GoT to do with Daenerys Targaryen. The descent into madness and being corrupted by the book was a fairly good one.

Still wish it were an alternate Wanda using our Wanda as a puppet. Have our cake and eat it to.

The fact that Wanda can kill Maria so easily implies that she could do the same to Carol Danvers. The fact that Wanda killed off the likes of Professor X (Mentally), Mr. Fantastic, Black Bolt, and Captain Marvel without really trying makes her a bigger threat than any Marvel villain that I know of.

Thor got lucky in IW and Dr. Strange has yet to overpower any character in the MCU.

She didn't kill off Maria easily. Maria gave her a run for her money and i wouldn't even say that she's 100% dead. Just has a statue on top of her and taking a nap

 

[Spider-Fan]

but why use them as examples? why not use lesser, not as beloved characters (Black Bolt was fine imho but they crossed the line with Reed and Xavier)? i bet they wouldnt use Spidey as a jobber..that wouldnt play so well to audiences. And I am sure this didnt either.

They're alternate versions, so it in the end doesn't overtly matter

 

[SirStrangefolk]

I am a bit surprised about the reaction to the Illuminati too. Before the movie came out it seems everyone was all about having the movie filled with all sorts of multiverse variant cameos from Deadpool to Tom Cruise as Superior Iron Man. But with the ones we got like actual multiversal X-Men and Fantastic Four which people have been asking for forever, people are now saying we shouldn't have gotten them at all if they weren't going to be super badasses that perform as well as the main universe Avengers do in their own movies?

So what would be the solution here?
- Should the Illuminati have done a fight comparable to the fights by the Avengers against Ultron or Thanos in their own movies? (essentially hijacking the movie and taking all focus away from Strange)
- Should the Earth-838 superteam have consisted of Fandral, Joaquín Torres, D-Man, Frankie Raye (from Rise of the Silver Surfer) and Chris Bradley (from X-Men Origins) so it wouldn't be "disrespect to Marvel's beloved characters"?
- Should they just not have had any variant heroes do any fighting at all?

she basically killed that universe's version of The Avengers...yes it does cheapen them. Basically if you have an iota of magic/sorcery/supernatural ability such as Loki, you are probably going to see the same result. The Illuminati was laughably weak. Wanda made them look worse than putty patrollers. She is way too OP. It's ridiculous. If this movie were a video game, Wanda is Super Mario and the Illuminati were goombas.She stomped the crap out of them.

I mean yes, Wanda is very overpowered. It seems she is a mutant with chaos magic abilities which were then boosted by an infinity stone. She is said to be the Scarlet Witch, a nexus being, more powerful than the sorcerer supreme, capable of rewriting reality and changing or destroying things on a molecular level, and the one prophesized to either destroy or rule the entire multiverse. And she was all that before she got her hands on the Darkhold which boosted her powers even more. I think it's quite intentional that she is so powerful and that power level cannot simply be compared to anyone who has an iota of magic ability.

Plus this just seems totally par for the course of any Marvel multiverse variant team. In the comics that this whole "Illuminati deal with the multiverse and incursions" stuff comes from, the Illuminati/Black Order/Namor's Cabal slaughter countless universes worth of Avengers/X-Men/Squadrons Supreme, etc. without any losses on their side. We've had books dedicated specifically to "X kills the Marvel Universe", Old Man Logan single handedly killed off his universe's X-Men while tricked by Mysterio, even in the multiverse surrounding the MCU we saw in What If...? how Hank Pym singlehandedly took out the original Avengers as well as how Ultron killed off almost all Avengers and even one-shot Thanos.

I guess I'm just surprised Marvel fans seem so offended at something that happens literally all the time in Marvel.

Spoiler

I assumed it was Clea but the get up was so odd. I would have preferred her appearing in every day clothing and saying I am Clea. Unless you follow the comics many not catching that characters. A lot of the credit scenes this phase have been wtf for non comic book followers in my theater.
Eternals- Had to guess it was Blade's voice but you don't see him.
Black Widow- had to watch Falcon/WS to know Val
and now this.

Black Widow was actually supposed to come out before Falcon+WS so it's the opposite actually. The reveal scene of her in that show initially only had her legs or something so you couldn't tell who it was only to then reveal "oh it's the woman from Black Widow" (except nobody had seen that yet due to covid delays). I think that "Unless you follow the comics many not catching that characters" was true even for Nick Fury in Iron Man 1. If you didn't read comics you didn't know who Fury was.

 

[Kane52630]

Doctor Strange in the Multiverse of Madness

The incredible whiplash in quality as this movie progressed? Truly madness.

FULL REVIEW: At the Movies with Kane and BN
3/5

 

[legendkillin]

Black Widow was actually supposed to come out before Falcon+WS so it's the opposite actually. The reveal scene of her in that show initially only had her legs or something so you couldn't tell who it was only to then reveal "oh it's the woman from Black Widow" (except nobody had seen that yet due to covid delays). I think that "Unless you follow the comics many not catching that characters" was true even for Nick Fury in Iron Man 1. If you didn't read comics you didn't know who Fury was.

I don't think it is entirely true with Fury because Fury was in cartoons and games before IM1 whether he was white or black. They even had the black Fury appear in games as alternate costumes. Clea has never been usable in a game or the old cartoons.

 

[NewYorkSpider]

This film has it's flaws, but I enjoyed it. I'm glad they didn't go overboard with characters for just fan service. Classic Sam Raimi film. The horror elements were very well done. Especially the scene where they're waiting for her to come through the doors and she pops out of nowhere!

I'll give it an 8/10.

I wonder if Krasinski is taking over as actor/director of Fantastic 4? Watts maybe back to do the 4th Spider-Man film or another MCU project?

 

[thalidomide]

So I just saw the movie and...

Spoiler

- the vfx is amazing. Though there is a scene where Wanda is levitating and you can tell that her mini cape (whatever you call it) is CGI. Nonetheless, I can't wait to see this on 4k

- fight scenes are good. I like the Strange vs Strange duel

- Some jokes fell flat which is fine for me as I was expecting a horror film not an Iron Man-esque one.

- funny how Wanda's agenda is to access the multiverse so she can be with her kids but didn't even bother to see if Pietro is alive in other universe (this is just a nitpick and a silly one so don't come at me)

- I don't why some of you are complaining about John's costume. I think it looks great. Hopefully, he signed multiple contracts. Only time will tell

- the 90's X-Men theme is a nice touch.

- Stewart looks uncomfortable in that chair. But the chair looks good as well.

- Atwell is a goddess. Nuff said

- Seeing the Illuminati in the big screen is a sight to behold. Didn't watch the Inhumans series but BB's costume is amazing.

- some semi brutal death scenes are a great addition to the MCU.

- Since Wanda killed a lot of people in this movie, I bet we won't be seeing her again until something world ending is about to happen.

- Cumberbatch and Olsen were great which is expected.

- Didn't expect Charlize to see in the movie.

- Stupidest end credit scene ever. I didn't hear anyone laugh