In The Multiverse Of Madness Spoiler Discussion Thread

[Batmannerism]

None of that compares to Wanda defeating Earth's Mightiest Heroes and killing them in doing so. The Illuminati defeated and killed Thanos. The fact that Wanda was able to single-handedly kill them speaks VOLUMES to the level of power she's reached here. 616 Wanda couldn't kill 616 Thanos. 616 Scarlet Witch actually could.

You really were asleep:

- the Illuminati were able to defeat Thanos because of what their Dr Strange did. Which is why he let them kill him, after Thanos was disposed of.

- In Endgame, Wanda was in the process of killing Thanos and was only stopped when he distracted her by calling down a massive bombardment on his own troops. Had she been allowed to continue she'd have killed him.

But none of this matters. I encourage you to think, from a story perspective, why we need to see her kill the Illuminati ? The answer is.....we don't.

After seeing Wanda wipe out Kamar Taj, the audience knows she's a very powerful and dangerous being. Killing the Illuminati is unnecessary, it's just dangling shiny objects in front of the audience and hoping some people start drooling. It doesn't advance the story at all.

If you can't figure that out, after seeing the Kamar Taj part of the film well.... you're Disney's target audience.

Look man, if you like this film fair play. Nothing wrong with that.

 

[sdgrandia86]

There's a big difference between killing students and apprentices studying the mystic arts and are learning to control their powers and a group of the experienced superheroes who have faced world ending threats and who also came out as arrogant and underestimated the Witch powers.

The Illuminati served many purposes - to show multiverse variants of exisiting characters, introduce the Inhumans and Fantastic Four, introduce mutants/XMen by paying tribute to a beloved character/actor, through exposition introduce the concept of incursion, expand upon the danger of Doctor Strange and the running theme of him being the one holding the knife and the dangers of the Darkhold; and showcase corrupted Wanda powers, determination and the lenghts she will go to accomplish her goals. Up to that point we hadn't seen Wanda dreamwalk. It also establishes her as a threat on a mutiversal level without her having to actually be in that reality.

Black Bolt was taken out by surprise as was Mister Fantastic. Captain Marvel and Captain Carter lasted as long as they did because they teamed up. In a battle of the minds Xavier could have put more of a fight, I agree, but in the end Wanda proved to be stronger.

Nothing about the movie really screams "Disney target" audience other than it using Marvel characters. I'm surprised with how much they were to get away with.

If people didn't like the film or they didn't like their favorite characters die it's fine but the scene did serve a brutal purpose.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

You really were asleep:

- the Illuminati were able to defeat Thanos because of what their Dr Strange did. Which is why he let them kill him, after Thanos was disposed of.

- In Endgame, Wanda was in the process of killing Thanos and was only stopped when he distracted her by calling down a massive bombardment on his own troops. Had she been allowed to continue she'd have killed him.

But none of this matters. I encourage you to think, from a story perspective, why we need to see her kill the Illuminati ? The answer is.....we don't.

After seeing Wanda wipe out Kamar Taj, the audience knows she's a very powerful and dangerous being. Killing the Illuminati is unnecessary, it's just dangling shiny objects in front of the audience and hoping some people start drooling. It doesn't advance the story at all.

If you can't figure that out, after seeing the Kamar Taj part of the film well.... you're Disney's target audience.

Look man, if you like this film fair play. Nothing wrong with that.

The sorcerers from Kamar Taj have never been on the level of the "Avengers" in the MCU. When Thanos was doing his thing during the finale of Endgame, while the crew showed up, it was in support. Wanda, Thor, Tony, Cap, and Carol are the only ones who were seen as capable of fighting Thanos and only Carol was really able to press him. When Strange, by far the most capable wizard of the group, fought him in Infinity War, he got stomped out by Thanos in less then a minute.

So in this flick, the crew they run into did what the 616 Avengers couldn't. Beat Thanos "properly". Thus setting them up as well above anything Wanda would have faced at the point. That she bodied them turned her into the unstoppable horror movie monster they were looking for.

You don't have to agree with anyone else on this subject nor like it. But I think there was a clear narrative reason, and that doesn't mean I slept through the movie or don't understand how to watch them.

 

[Bayne]

Also, the scene doesn't just speak to Wanda's power, it speaks to her increasing ruthlessness as well. Before she attacked Kamar Taj she went out of her way to repeatedly try to trick or convince the sorcerers into giving her America without having to fight. Yet on arriving in Earth 838, she just instantly goes for the kill. It never even occurs to her to tell the Illuminati 'Give me the girl and you'll never see me again.' Despite the fact that the Illuminati are theoretically in a better position to actually accept that kind of proposition since she isn't part of their universe and they were seemingly going to execute Strange and America anyway. It's one more step down the road of transforming into a monster.

Only thing I don't get is that Wanda is described as Nexus being so shouldn't she be unique accross the multiverse just like Chavez?

The Nexus being description doesn't actually say anything about being unique across the multiverse. But even if you want to interpret it that way, it's not Wanda that is the Nexus Being it's The Scarlet Witch. And that title apparently is tied directly to Chthon's Wundagore/Darkhold prophecies, since there was a literal statue of her waiting for her in the Wundagore throne room. Also, destroying the castle apparently destroyed all the copies of the Darkhold in all universes, so it would make sense to say Wundagore was unique in the multiverse and therefore whichever Wanda managed to claim it first would be the only one who could truly be the Scarlet Witch.

 

[Batmannerism]

The sorcerers from Kamar Taj have never been on the level of the "Avengers" in the MCU. When Thanos was doing his thing during the finale of Endgame, while the crew showed up, it was in support. Wanda, Thor, Tony, Cap, and Carol are the only ones who were seen as capable of fighting Thanos and only Carol was really able to press him. When Strange, by far the most capable wizard of the group, fought him in Infinity War, he got stomped out by Thanos in less then a minute.

So in this flick, the crew they run into did what the 616 Avengers couldn't. Beat Thanos "properly". Thus setting them up as well above anything Wanda would have faced at the point. That she bodied them turned her into the unstoppable horror movie monster they were looking for.

You don't have to agree with anyone else on this subject nor like it. But I think there was a clear narrative reason, and that doesn't mean I slept through the movie or don't understand how to watch them.

Well, none of those comments about being asleep were aimed at you, and actually weren't about being asleep while watching Dr Strange &TMOM. I was taking that other guy to task for ignoring some stuff in Infinity War and Endgame.

Anyway since you're here, I invite you to consider the following and how it answers your " clear narrative reason" for the Illuminati's appearance. Ready ?

Okay, here goes. This movie is about Dr Strange and how he deals with the threat posed by Wanda.
We see Wanda wipe out Kamar Taj, and beat Strange and Wong pretty easily - she's proved her point, he knows that he absolutely cannot defeat her. Even the mirror dimension won't stop her.

Now if Strange actively went looking for help from the Illuminati or other powerful heroes to help him, and Wanda wiped them out, that would serve some small story purpose.

But no, the writers aren't that clever. He essentially meets the Illuminati by happenstance, and then they die. The Thanos in this universe must have been a total mug to get beaten by such a bunch of arrogant idiots.

This is just Marvel showing us some shiny objects, member berries if you will. They add nothing to the story by being there and Wanda killing them adds nothing to the story, because we already know that she can beat Strange and Co, which is what the story is really about.

She doesn't need to show us how much more powerful she is by killing a bunch of other superheroes...because all she has to show us is that she can destroy Strange, America and Wong( which she's already done).

So, what does it accomplish ? Nothing
She's already proved that she's unbeatable for the purposes of the characters and the story.

We don't need to know that Wanda is so powerful that she can beat the Illuminati, because in the overall arc of the story that doesn't matter at all. Apologies, I'm repeating myself here.


Contrast the Illuminati's appearance with the appearance of Garfield and Maguire in No Way Home . They have character arcs, and make a real contribution to the story, and it's outcome. That's an example of a real narrative reason for them being there.
The Hulk's appearance in Thor Ragnarok is a similar proposition.

Want a test, to see if what I'm saying holds up?
I know what a huge fan of logical reasoning you are. So, apply this question:

"If the Illuminati had not appeared in the film, would it have made any significant difference to the outcome ?"

The answer is clearly "No". You could delete the sequence in which they appear, and the Book of Vishanti as well, (because it has zero impact on the outcome) and you could still easily get to the same ending.

That cannot be said for Maguire and Garfield, again, because they serve a real narrative purpose.

It doesn't bother me one iota that the Illuminati are in this film, or that people enjoyed it - if that's what people like, fair play to them.

What I take issue with is the pretence that the Illuminati's appearance was anything more than contrived fan service. Just own it, it's there to suck in fans and for the moment seems to have worked.

You might also ask yourself about the logic of being told a character is the world's smartest man, and then seeing him tell a dangerous enemy almost precisely how to destroy a teammate ( or why Black bolt's sonic blast didn't simply burst through the soft tissue of his face rather than bounce back and explode the back of his head, or erupt out his nose ?) Or maybe why Reed, again world's smartest man, then decides the best thing to do is try to grab Wanda Or why his teammates stood and watched him being turned into spaghetti....or how the invulnerable Captain Marvel is incapacitated by a falling statue. Just a few things to think about.

If you think, even a little, or apply a little logic that whole sequence falls apart really quickly.

Again, that shouldn't diminish your enjoyment of that sequence - if you liked it, fair play to you. You got your money's worth and enjoyed the film.

Why not just admit " Hey, it was fan service, and I don't care, it was awesome." ?

To be honest as much as I felt it was contrived, I really enjoyed seeing Wanda wipe out those arrogant jerks. I wish she'd made Captain Marvel's head explode after that " We can take care of your little witch." comment.

 

[Bayne]

You certainly can't remove the Book of Vishanti from the movie. Without America unconsciously taking them to a universe where the path to the Book has already been found, Strange's entire observation that America's jumps have always taken her in the right direction and therefore she does have some sort of unacknowledged control over her power would completely fall apart. And with it, the culmination of Strange's entire character arc because there wouldn't be any opportunity for him to save the day by trusting someone else's instincts.

Taking the Illuminati out of the movie may not make Wanda's power feel any less impressive but it still would undermine the depiction of her continuing slide into cruelty and corruption over the course of the film which would reduce her character arc significantly. As well as removing a significant number of her more impactful villain moments. And without the Illuminati - or some equivalent obstacle - there's no believable way for 838 Christine to help America escape and wind up traveling with Strange to the next universe, since the idea of her being able to fight Wanda directly or even escape without a head start is ridiculous. And she was unquestionably hugely important to the film both in plot and characterization terms.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

Well, none of those comments about being asleep were aimed at you, and actually weren't about being asleep while watching Dr Strange &TMOM. I was taking that other guy to task for ignoring some stuff in Infinity War and Endgame.

A disagreement over a film is no reason to insult someone or make out like they are stupid. It's not a reason to "taking someone to task" for. If someone was misgendering folk or quoting outright bigotry, that would make sense.

Anyway since you're here, I invite you to consider the following and how it answers your " clear narrative reason" for the Illuminati's appearance. Ready ?

Okay, here goes. This movie is about Dr Strange and how he deals with the threat posed by Wanda.
We see Wanda wipe out Kamar Taj, and beat Strange and Wong pretty easily - she's proved her point, he knows that he absolutely cannot defeat her. Even the mirror dimension won't stop her.

Now if Strange actively went looking for help from the Illuminati or other powerful heroes to help him, and Wanda wiped them out, that would serve some small story purpose.

But no, the writers aren't that clever. He essentially meets the Illuminati by happenstance, and then they die. The Thanos in this universe must have been a total mug to get beaten by such a bunch of arrogant idiots.

This is just Marvel showing us some shiny objects, member berries if you will. They add nothing to the story by being there and Wanda killing them adds nothing to the story, because we already know that she can beat Strange and Co, which is what the story is really about.

She doesn't need to show us how much more powerful she is by killing a bunch of other superheroes...because all she has to show us is that she can destroy Strange, America and Wong( which she's already done).

So, what does it accomplish ? Nothing
She's already proved that she's unbeatable for the purposes of the characters and the story.

The movie is not simply about Strange dealing with the threat of Wanda. It's about Strange dealing with regret and reflecting on himself as a human being. Something extremely difficult for someone with Strange's arrogance.

It's also about Wanda's descent into darkness and America's own regrets about her past, who she is, and her own general self worth. We have a narrative where Strange's own self-reflection is mirrored in Wanda and America.

I don't think it would make sense for Strange to "seek out" the Illuminati because of America. One, he wouldn't know they exist, and two a big part of America's character arc is trying to master her powers. Not just using them, but learning where to direct herself. We see this with how she lost her parents, how she stumbled upon the different Stranges and the very sequence when they end up in the world of the Illuminati. That she doesn't trust herself, while Strange is seeing in her that she's making the right choice, even if she doesn't realize it, matters. For America, and for Strange, who has take on the role of surrogate parent, even as he's one who's afraid to bond. It plays a big role in him "damning" the rules and common sense to not simply save the multiverse but America herself (not dissimilar to Wanda). Which he puts enough faith into to get it right. You know, even as Wong is telling him to dust the kid.

As to paying attention to what is told to us in a film. The Illuminati didn't just simply destroy Thanos. They did it with their Strange and the book of Vishanti. Which is important, because we are now presented with a group that knew a very complicated man in their Strange. One they killed. And in front of them stands his shadow, every bit the annoying arrogant jerk they remember. Which leads to a general mistrust by this group who knew him. I'm a big fan of captain arrogant running into someone displaying his worst quality, while also forcing him to reflect on who he is and what he's capable of. That Charles gives him the thumbs up, and he proceeds to break his own rules and follow Wanda down a similar path (for America), is a nice bit of foreshadowing and character work imo. All aided by the Illuminati.

As to the idea of the member berries. They sure picked a weird group to do that with. A fancast, a reflection of a character from Strange's first flick with no wider involvement in the MCU, a character from their animated show, a different universe take on a character from a TV show very few watched, and a mirror from Captain Marvel. The only big "remember him" was Charles, and even that would have been a wrong assumption from the vast majority of the public, who would of thought it was the Charles from the Fox flicks, when it actually the Charles from the old animated series.

I feel like they picked the Illuminati because it was a simple way to add another classic element from the comics, without having to worry about it being "right'. Because it's a different universe, and thus they can have fun and market other projects, while giving a wink to the more knowledge fans.

We don't need to know that Wanda is so powerful that she can beat the Illuminati, because in the overall arc of the story that doesn't matter at all. Apologies, I'm repeating myself here.

It certainly does something for the Wanda and Strange arcs imo. Especially with how Wanda confronts them. Does it have to be that way? No. But it adds a nice layer of texture I greatly enjoyed. Especially with 616 Wanda going Evil Dead, and using "herself" as a puppet, without any regard against an Avengers level opponent.

Also something I just considered now. If the Illuminati did stop Wanda, Wanda was crap out of luck. Because she did not have another of herself to dreamwalk in, in that universe. So their presence matters simply in that regard. Not bad stupid screenwriters!

Contrast the Illuminati's appearance with the appearance of Garfield and Maguire in No Way Home . They have character arcs, and make a real contribution to the story, and it's outcome. That's an example of a real narrative reason for them being there.
The Hulk's appearance in Thor Ragnarok is a similar proposition.

Want a test, to see if what I'm saying holds up?
I know what a huge fan of logical reasoning you are. So, apply this question:

"If the Illuminati had not appeared in the film, would it have made any significant difference to the outcome ?"

The answer is clearly "No". You could delete the sequence in which they appear, and the Book of Vishanti as well, (because it has zero impact on the outcome) and you could still easily get to the same ending.

That cannot be said for Maguire and Garfield, again, because they serve a real narrative purpose.

It doesn't bother me one iota that the Illuminati are in this film, or that people enjoyed it - if that's what people like, fair play to them.

What I take issue with is the pretence that the Illuminati's appearance was anything more than contrived fan service. Just own it, it's there to suck in fans and for the moment seems to have worked.

You might also ask yourself about the logic of being told a character is the world's smartest man, and then seeing him tell a dangerous enemy almost precisely how to destroy a teammate ( or why Black bolt's sonic blast didn't simply burst through the soft tissue of his face rather than bounce back and explode the back of his head, or erupt out his nose ?) Or maybe why Reed, again world's smartest man, then decides the best thing to do is try to grab Wanda Or why his teammates stood and watched him being turned into spaghetti....or how the invulnerable Captain Marvel is incapacitated by a falling statue. Just a few things to think about.

If you think, even a little, or apply a little logic that whole sequence falls apart really quickly.

Again, that shouldn't diminish your enjoyment of that sequence - if you liked it, fair play to you. You got your money's worth and enjoyed the film.

Why not just admit " Hey, it was fan service, and I don't care, it was awesome." ?

To be honest as much as I felt it was contrived, I really enjoyed seeing Wanda wipe out those arrogant jerks. I wish she'd made Captain Marvel's head explode after that " We can take care of your little witch." comment.

Well there is a lot here. So I'll turn to list format.

1. I wouldn't compare the Illuminati to the other Spider-Men, because they did not serve the same role in the film. That would be Wanda and America. Both of which I felt had arcs, and in the case of America, I just fell in love with as a character.

I'd also argue the other Stranges (the literal one to one comparsions to the NWH Spider-Men) serve both a narrative and character purpose, arguably larger then the NWH Spider-Men. Where is in NWH they are wrapping up irrelevant character threads from movies not even in this series, Strange's doubles are helping him do a lot of character work in that film.

Also, just want to make it clear, I love NWH, just like I love MOM. But I am also not one adverse to having fun with movies I see as flawed. Which I see both as.

2. You barometer for what should and shouldn't be in a movie is not one a lot of the best material in cinema would stand up to. Like Raiders of the Lost Ark, where Indiana Jones himself effects the outcome of the film exactly zero percent. And yet, I wouldn't remove him and find Raiders to be a classic.

3. Removing the book of Vishanti I think would be a huge error. It serves as Strange's "last chance" to not follow Wanda and two of his less then stellar selves down the path of the pure dark stuff.

4. Reed is completely unaware of Wanda's abilities. He has no idea what she's capable of. His biggest sin is showing empathy. Something I can appreciate for a man trying not to kill a helpless person trapped against her own will.

5. You find it to be contrived fanservice. Others don't. That's how disagreement works. You certainly don't have the right to demand others agree with you, no matter how right you think you are. Especially on a subject as trivial of what is and what isn't fanservice in a big franchise flick.

 

[XtremelyBaneful]

Is it true that Sam raimi did not watch all of Wandavision before directing this movie?

 

[sdgrandia86]

Is it true that Sam raimi did not watch all of Wandavision before directing this movie?

I read an article that says he only watched key moments but not the whole thing.

Sam Raimi Hasn’t Finished WandaVision (Despite Making Doctor Strange 2)

 

[javonstokess]

hey, if you like this film, fair play to you, but that defense of terrible writing is unintentionally hilarious.

So the Illuminati were there to show how powerful Wanda is: guess that whole Kamar Taj sequence was unnecessary then, eh. Every other reason you've given is simply " look at this thing we might do later" rather than actually do something worthwhile with the story you're currently showing us. It's fan service, done badly - why do you think they did massive reshoots, after the success of NWH.

Did you like the way we're told that Reed is the world's smartest man, and then he straight up tells Wanda the one guaranteed way to defeat Black Bolt ? Or how the rest of the team just stand there and watch him get turned to spaghetti.

As for the book of Vishanti, that's not "bait and switch" its a maguffin, and when maguffins are done well they add a lot to a story. Here, it was just busy-work.

The fact that other movies have maguffins or bait and switches doesn't mean that either of those plot devices were used cleverly in this movie.

Hey if you like all that, great, because Marvel's got a **** load more of that coming, no doubt. You will be entertained indeed. Enjoy !

With all due respect, I don't have a problem if you just flat didn't like the movie, but the logic within it is relatively sound.

There were many themes in the movie, but I'd argue that "Hubris" was the main one. Almost every one in the movie showed it. All the Stranges did at one point or another, the Illuminati especially did and Wanda did as well. You take issue with Reed telling Wanda about Black Bolt, but they clearly didn't know the extent of Wanda's abilities.

As for the book, I'll continue to say that it was important to the movie and used well. It was the thing that America and her Strange were searching for that led her to 616 Strange. Then THEY started to search for it because it was "their only hope" to defeat Wanda, but that's why I said it was a bait and switch. It wasn't the real MacGuffin to defeat Wanda, America was the true MacGuffin.

I do enjoy Marvel and I'm looking forward to what they have coming up, but the story structure is sound. Just because you don't like it doesn't mean that's not true.

 

[javonstokess]

Anyone else see the Living Tribunal when Strange and America crashed through the Multiverses?

 

[Mr. Peanut]

Just gonna say, Batmannerism's arguing style is toxic and I would advise against engaging with him until he learns how to state his opinions without being needlessly flippant and disrespectful. This discussion feels like reading something off of Gamefaqs.

 

[Johnny Richards]

Just gonna say, Batmannerism's arguing style is toxic and I would advise against engaging with him until he learns how to state his opinions without being needlessly flippant and disrespectful. This discussion feels like reading something off of Gamefaqs.

You're always going to have fans that are overtly critical. A buddy of mine watches every single MCU movie and complains about them for days on after. But he'll never stop watching them. He'll even watch each movie multiple times in theaters. That's the power of Marvel characters. Even people who hate the MCU's style and tone will continue to support the films just to see their favorite characters from the books in live action.

 

[Bary]

The more I think about this movie the less I like it. And the more apparent right now phase 4 is kind of a cluster trying to figure out how to operate in a world without Tony stark and Cap as the main sellers and an Avengers film every 3-4 years. So far it feels like we got a bunch of characters introduced and a few god mythologies and then a random black widow film that should have released in 2013. Shang Chi, Wanda vision and moonknight have been the only standouts.

 

[Bary]

You're always going to have fans that are overtly critical. A buddy of mine watches every single MCU movie and complains about them for days on after. But he'll never stop watching them. He'll even watch each movie multiple times in theaters. That's the power of Marvel characters. Even people who hate the MCU's style and tone will continue to support the films just to see their favorite characters from the books in live action.

Marvel and their marketing team have done a fantastic job marketing these movies as must see

 

[Mr. Peanut]

You're always going to have fans that are overtly critical. A buddy of mine watches every single MCU movie and complains about them for days on after. But he'll never stop watching them. He'll even watch each movie multiple times in theaters. That's the power of Marvel characters. Even people who hate the MCU's style and tone will continue to support the films just to see their favorite characters from the books in live action.

I'm not saying you can't be critical. Though I personally prefer to focus on things I enjoy and the things I enjoy about what I enjoy (hence why you won't find too many posts from me in the DCEU related sections of this forum, for instance), I understand that some people derive more enjoyment from criticism, which is fine. But one should still maintain a respectful attitude toward others when doing so. For example...

Did you sleep through the part where she slaughters 90% of the sorcerors of Kamar Taj, and whoops Strange and Wong ? Or maybe you dozed off in Endgame when she nearly took out Thanos one on one.

FFS, it's fan service, just own it. It isn't there for some vital plot reason - in fact if it didn't occur the outcome of the film would be exactly the same.

After seeing Wanda wipe out Kamar Taj, the audience knows she's a very powerful and dangerous being. Killing the Illuminati is unnecessary, it's just dangling shiny objects in front of the audience and hoping some people start drooling. It doesn't advance the story at all.

If you can't figure that out, after seeing the Kamar Taj part of the film well.... you're Disney's target audience.

The crossed out portions of the above excerpts are unnecessary, they simply add a disrespectful, flippant attitude to his central points, which are adequately stated in the unbolded portions.

I understand that when arguing with faceless strangers on the internet it can be all too easy to pepper little jabs and meanspirited remarks into an argument. But we should try to be better than that.

 

[Johnny Richards]

Anyone else see the Living Tribunal when Strange and America crashed through the Multiverses?

I saw him. Very cool.

 

[Closerframe]

I’ve got to admit, as the movies/shows go on, the less I find myself interested in what they’re doing. With Phase I-III, there were obviously growing pains with the likes of bad and mediocre sequels and stand-alone projects, but Phase IV has lacked a sense of cohesion which was only exemplified with MoM. Trust me, I have so much respect for Raimi’s directing and sense of style, but the movie is such a mess on a characterization level of Strange and even elements of Wanda that it just screams lazy and reactive to some of the successes seen with No Way Home.

The introduction of the Illuminati should have felt bigger and although they’re meant to demonstrate the arrogance of the group and Wanda’s power, they all make idiotic decisions to the point that their deaths are so ridiculously cartoonish that it doesn’t even feel like the 15 mins(?) they were onscreen should have been included because it doesn’t do anything for the plot besides help Strange pick-up another Christine on his adventure. It wouldn’t surprise me if Feige uses some of the criticism from MoM to determine how he’ll bring these characters into the 616 universe.

Overall, the biggest problem with the movie were my expectations. Not because of the trailers or the excitement high after No Way Home, but because of what Feige and Co kept insisting by the title that his would be a mind-bending adventure through the multiverse. I’m not sure if it’s because Everything Everywhere All At Once and even bits of Loki, captured the insanity of having multiple realities in such a great way that just seeing New York in three different ways in MoM just felt uninspired.

 

[Spider-Fan]

You really were asleep:

- the Illuminati were able to defeat Thanos because of what their Dr Strange did. Which is why he let them kill him, after Thanos was disposed of.

- In Endgame, Wanda was in the process of killing Thanos and was only stopped when he distracted her by calling down a massive bombardment on his own troops. Had she been allowed to continue she'd have killed him.

But none of this matters. I encourage you to think, from a story perspective, why we need to see her kill the Illuminati ? The answer is.....we don't.

After seeing Wanda wipe out Kamar Taj, the audience knows she's a very powerful and dangerous being. Killing the Illuminati is unnecessary, it's just dangling shiny objects in front of the audience and hoping some people start drooling. It doesn't advance the story at all.

If you can't figure that out, after seeing the Kamar Taj part of the film well.... you're Disney's target audience.

Look man, if you like this film fair play. Nothing wrong with that.

Dude, on a personal level I disagree with your thesis. But that isn't why I am replying. This post is super condescending. Can the attitude. You can make your argument without the "everyone who disagrees with me is a Disney shill or idiot" attitude. If you cannot do that, then post somewhere else because I don't want that attitude HERE and no one else does either

 

[metaphysician]

Assuming Thanos had the Infinity stones at least the reality stone couldn't he have done something similar to Wanda and just killed Black Bolt. He can be very strong and easy to beat if someone has the ability to cover his mouth.

Probably, but something to remember is that the Illuminati only beat Thanos *after* acquiring the Book of the Vishanti. They didn't win just by having those six people rush him, they won by Strange acquiring a suitable magic macguffin. If Strange ( or Mordo I suppose ) had used the Book of the Vishanti, they would have beaten Wanda here, too.

 

[Tony Stark]

With all due respect, I don't have a problem if you just flat didn't like the movie, but the logic within it is relatively sound.

There were many themes in the movie, but I'd argue that "Hubris" was the main one. Almost every one in the movie showed it. All the Stranges did at one point or another, the Illuminati especially did and Wanda did as well. You take issue with Reed telling Wanda about Black Bolt, but they clearly didn't know the extent of Wanda's abilities.

As for the book, I'll continue to say that it was important to the movie and used well. It was the thing that America and her Strange were searching for that led her to 616 Strange. Then THEY started to search for it because it was "their only hope" to defeat Wanda, but that's why I said it was a bait and switch. It wasn't the real MacGuffin to defeat Wanda, America was the true MacGuffin.

I do enjoy Marvel and I'm looking forward to what they have coming up, but the story structure is sound. Just because you don't like it doesn't mean that's not true.

Yeah this.

Strange didn't meet the Illuminati by happen stance. It's stated in the movie that America had control of her power all along if only on a subconscious level. Something to the effect that she always opened portals to exactly where they needed to go. They didn't go to meet the illuminati they went to meet that universes' Strange. He had been killed, they didn't know that. That's when they ran into the 818 Mordo. Because of Mordo's experience with Strange in this universe, that's why he drugged him and brought him before the illuminati.

The other Strange's didn't trust America to use her powers on her own. When the Book of Vishanti was destroyed, Steven knew the one thing no other version of Strange had ever tried was trusting America to herself. The whole concept of Steven being the one always wanting to "hold the knife".

 

[Gothamsknight]

Where would Jackman's Wolverine have fit in this story? I think the Illuminati scene was always intended to be the only scene in the movie where we get our fanservice/cameos. I dont believe the story was meant to have characters pop up throughout the film.

I never liked the idea of him having a cameo so I'm glad he wasn't there tbh. He wouldn't fit, either way. I was skeptical about xavier returning, due to how well his ending was handled in Logan, but I think overall it worked here. Wolverine, though, I feel would have been more risky.

 

[Frodo]

Where would Jackman's Wolverine have fit in this story? I think the Illuminati scene was always intended to be the only scene in the movie where we get our fanservice/cameos. I dont believe the story was meant to have characters pop up throughout the film.

The rumor was that he was going to fight Wanda and then be killed.
I actually do suspect that during some point at development, they had the idea to have several cameos.
Scripts like this go through alot of changes and ideas and characters are tossed out all the time, so it's not that far fetched that early ideas don't make the final cut.
We already know the changes made with NWH and MOM so it's not that big a leap to speculate that more characters may have been intended during the development stage.
But , we disagree.

 

[Doctor Jones]

My favorite part was Wanda snapping an already paralyzed old man's neck to murder him.

One of my favorite parts of this movie was just making Wanda an all out monster. The very careful, delicate arc they formed for her in WandaVision just got turned upside down. It technically could have used a better build up, but for what it is, I enjoy the simplicity in how gleeful it is. She was very fun to watch and I liked the duel between these two very powerful characters in being able to control the multiverse. It was nice to just see a villain be villainous, and it being a character we knew makes it more interesting. Come back from this one, Wanda!

This isn't one of the best Marvel movies; not everything works, some things suffer from reshoots narratively. It's what I expected. A Raimi film within the Marvel box. But I still enjoyed it because of the Raimi flourishes and it got better as it went along as it became more of a Raimi film. The third act was the best part of the movie and when it finally felt like what a Doctor Strange movie should be from the comics. I know it's too much to ask for Marvel, but in a perfect world, an ideal third DS movie directed by Raimi would be in the spirit of that third act.

"Do you have a wife and children in this world?"

"Yes."

"Then someone will be able to raise them."

 

[Johnny Richards]

Hugh Jackman/838 Wolverine, Tom Cruise/838 Superior Iron Man, Tobey Maguire/Spider-Man, Andrew Garfield/Spider-Man, Emma Stone/Spider-Gwen...I expect to see them all in Secret Wars.